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Entry #1: the entire .ml user base (feddit.dk)
submitted 1 month ago by to c/politicalmemes@lemmy.world
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[+] -12 points 1 month ago (27 children)

I've said this time and time again. They do not care about Palestinians either. They want people like Trump in charge, because they're just fascists in a different coat of paint and millions or even tens of millions of casualties is completely fine as long as it harms the reputation of a western country, any of them in fact.

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  • [–] 16 points 1 month ago (19 children)

    They want people like Trump in charge

    wrong, i absolutely do not want trump in charge. i want the democrats to suck less. i put the 2024 election loss at their feet. i wish they had actually delivered things for people (other than bombs to the genocide) so they didn't eat shit.

    the people blaming voters for the democrats obscene incompetence are actively making things worse by refusing to learn anything.

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  • [–] -5 points 1 month ago (18 children)

    i wish they had actually delivered things for people (other than bombs to the genocide) so they didn’t eat shit.

    @boonhet@sopuli.xyz, see I don't think they are being fake here. They have a point here.

    Still they are not under siege, so its easy to keep your purity clean and say something is not good enough. Would a total stop to support of Israel be good? Of course. The overall tone is all or nothing; which surprise they got nothing given their tendency to walk away from the table and surrender all possible influence they might have, so they cannot even muster a reduction of aid to Israel.

    Its not clear what their superior community engagement has brought to that or other causes. I suppose they could travel to Yemen and enlist in the Houthis' army. For what its worth they did say they are standing up to Israel and taking serious action.

    the people blaming voters for the democrats obscene incompetence are actively making things worse by refusing to learn anything.

    Its a fair point, but also a self fulfilling prophecy. If you walk away from the conversation you lose your position. It is not a surprise that those who left got nothing. Or that when they return they have nothing to build from their previous success. Mamdani is a good example here. The DSA can point to his record for re-election and other DSA can point to him and say lets bring that here; rather than just abstract talking points.

    Its okay if .ml isn't the tip of the spear on the electoral front, but their disparaging is counter productive and damages overall leftist unity.

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  • [–] 10 points 1 month ago (17 children)

    the "walk away from the conversation" framing assumes that conversation is a place where meaningful negotiation happens.

    the democratic party has demonstrated repeatedly that left pressure doesn't move them. they take the votes and ignore the demands, then they act as if they were always going to win and never needed you (at least until it's time to cope about a loss, then we're entirely to blame).

    doesn't matter if it's for palestine, trans healthcare, minimum wage increase, universal healthcare, more often than not it's the democrats calling the cops on people for speaking up.

    i've said before but your vision of 'left unity' reads like attempts to discipline leftists, ie get us to shut up about things that make liberals uncomfortable and precompromise with them.

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  • [–] -3 points 1 month ago (16 children)

    i've said before but your vision of 'left unity' reads like attempts to discipline leftists, ie get us to shut up about things that make liberals uncomfortable and precompromise with them.

    I didn't tell anyone to shut up. I am saying your surrendering an important part of our class war. Even Lenin said we should engage in electoral politics. We are on a complete back foot here and mls have a defeated complex about building momentum.

    Like I pointed out. Not every place is fortunate to have a DSA or PSL, so we must do the best we can. Everyone who defeated imperial powers did it over the long term not on a blitz.

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  • [–] 7 points 1 month ago (15 children)

    Even Lenin said we should engage in electoral politics.

    i'm an anarchist, but i've still read a bit of lenin. in fact one of the polemics of his that i've read was 'left wing communism an infantile disorder', the text you're paraphrasing.

    his point was about using bourgeois parliaments as a platform for revolutionary agitation and exposing their limitations as a part of a workers movement. it was not about supporting bourgeois parties or treating elections as the primary terrain of struggle. invoking that in support of voting for democrats is a distortion of what the polemic was about.

    Not every place is fortunate to have a DSA or PSL, so we must do the best we can. Everyone who defeated imperial powers did it over the long term not on a blitz.

    this is exactly why i prefer to devote my energy to making sure that my neighbors can eat and protesting against democrats capitulating to republicans. i don't see those problems going away after a successful election, even when democrats have a supermajority they find a way to do what republicans want.

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  • [–] -3 points 1 month ago (14 children)

    his point was about using bourgeois parliaments as a platform for revolutionary agitation and exposing their limitations as a part of a workers movement. it was not about supporting bourgeois parties or treating elections as the primary terrain of struggle. invoking that in support of voting for democrats is a distortion of what the polemic was about.

    And for that you need to build a little foothold. Which we lack in many places federal to local.

    this is exactly why i prefer to devote my energy to making sure that my neighbors can eat and protesting against democrats capitulating to republicans. i don’t see those problems going away after a successful election, even when democrats have a supermajority they find a way to do what republicans want.

    And you would have more room to do that with mid dems too.

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  • [–] 7 points 1 month ago (13 children)

    And you would have more room to do that with mid dems too.

    right now those exact type of dems are the ones having my friends and comrades arrested for protesting their capitulation. they are far more invested in protecting institutions and their own careers than listening to anyone on their left. the only real difference is that those dems not overtly calling us slurs.

    And for that you need to build a little foothold. Which we lack in many places federal to local

    thing is i'm in an area with a foothold already and i don't see why we can't expect more from these democrats right now. are we expected to wait until dsa/psl is running people for every dog catcher position in the country first? asking more of democrats in a deep blue state is not hurting their re-election chances. in reality their secure election position is exactly why they are so unaccountable.

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  • [–] -4 points 1 month ago (12 children)

    thing is i’m in an area with a foothold already and i don’t see why we can’t expect more from these democrats right now

    Well that is a nice point of privlidge that not all of us have, so congrats. As for the second point you should continue to prod and push them to do more. No where have I said dems win is the end game.

    We are on the back foot and we have to live to fight another day. I'm sure you are familiar with the long march?

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  • [–] 6 points 1 month ago (11 children)

    that is a nice point of privlidge that not all of us have, so congrats.

    there's a constant stream of trans people relocating from other parts of the country, those who can afford to at least. blue states have their upsides, but much of that goes away the second you're unable to pay the inflated rents. i have way too many friends on the brink of homelessness and basically everyone i know has roommates, myself included. when i was on state insurance i was stuck paying out of pocket for HRT.

    it may seem like a privileged position, but right now it's just different terrain of struggle with the primary roadblock being democrats and their lgbt 'ally' nonprofits that have completely failed to meet the moment. instead of getting arrested by team red we get to be arrested by team blue.

    my main point is that uncritical support of democrats gets us nowhere, they've demonstrated that they're perfectly happy to throw minority groups under the bus in defense of institutions and their own positions.

    i don't think the CPC was being asked to vote and support the KMT during the long march

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  • [–] -4 points 1 month ago (10 children)

    i don’t think the CPC was being asked to vote and support the KMT during the long march

    No, the point is that they did what they needed to do to come out ahead. Regardless of how unpleasant it was. You need to live to fight another day to win. From where I am standing .ml types are too worried with purity testing to do what is needed. In this case it means voting dem where necessary.

    my main point is that uncritical support of democrats gets us nowhere

    Good news Diva, no one is asking you to be uncritical. You are being asked to be strategic.

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  • [–] 5 points 1 month ago* (9 children)

    no one is asking you to be uncritical. You are being asked to be strategic.

    fortunately it is manifestly unnecessary to vote dem for me as we don't have a popular vote and as a party republicans are entirely a non-factor (the seats are either nonpartisan or they just run as 'moderate' democrats)

    don't worry though i still get to vote in dem primaries

    From where I am standing .ml types are too worried with purity testing to do what is needed.

    from where i am standing way too many people are trying to return to the fucked up normal that came before trump instead of demanding better.

    the democrats as a party are themselves extremely worried about purity testing too, to all of our detriment. they specifically exclude anyone pro-palestine and anti-capitalist, even if that's what's needed to meet the moment. as i've said, they waste opportunities and de-energize movements to protect institutions and their own positions. if we're on a long march they are actively walking the wrong way, not to mention actively sabotaging us.

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  • [–] -4 points 1 month ago (8 children)

    from where i am standing way too many people are trying to return to the fucked up normal that came before trump instead of demanding better.

    Really? I don't see that. I see people wanting better. I also see ML types not wanting to get the snow ball rolling on building electoral influence. They have none and make no effort to make any; they they wonder why they have made no head way or got anything from it.

    the democrats as a party are themselves extremely worried about purity testing too, to all of our detriment. they specifically exclude anyone pro-palestine and anti-capitalist,

    I mean. I clearly wrote before; voting blue is a last resort. And one that we won't be able to move away from as many MLs just don't care to help the rest of us on this front.

    if we’re on a long march they are actively walking the wrong way, not to mention actively sabotaging us.

    To expand on that... It looked even worse as they kept going, and kept getting more unpleasant. If they made the "principled" stance you are trying to make they would have been defeated in totality. Still the retreat was needed to pull forward later. They had to take steps that looked like abandoning their villages and towns, but they understood that if they didn't then no one was going to be around for them tomorrow. I am sure they had the same recoil you feel at the possibility to vote for a mid dem, but many in the .ml server are unwilling to do what is needed (seems to me)

    By the way, there are also more than just presidential elections. Local elections are far more important and often have on gerrymander or even people bothering to vote. These are not terribly expensive.

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  • [–] 6 points 1 month ago (7 children)

    They had to take steps that looked like abandoning their villages and towns, but they understood that if they didn’t then no one was going to be around for them tomorrow.

    so is this metaphor supposed to imply that i should be okay with my 'allies' abandoning me and other trans people in the name of their third position democrat schemes?

    By the way, there are also more than just presidential elections. Local elections are far more important and often have on gerrymander or even people bothering to vote. These are not terribly expensive.

    personally i am very involved in municipal stuff; many cities are heavily gerrymandered to have the local politics dominated by suburban shitheads completely detached from reality. the seats are all nonpartisan so often times even deep blue cities will have entire councils run by conservative real estate assholes and their friends.

    the point isn't just the money, it's that it's a massive time and personnel sink to pursue that across the country. all that for basically no payout considering how heavily most voter rolls are slanted towards wealthy homeowners. renters often end up effectively disenfranchised because in addition to needing to making extremely high rents and move between municipalities, they also have to update ballot paperwork every year or get de-enrolled.

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  • [–] -3 points 1 month ago (6 children)

    so is this metaphor supposed to imply that i should be okay with my ‘allies’ abandoning me and other trans people in the name of their third position democrat schemes?

    Its possible they might need to. I know I already have been left behind. All war is class war. All war is difficult. I don't blame you for not having the heart for it. Should the CPC taken a heroic stand? At the start of it they had a series of set backs and it was clear to their commanders that they were on the brink of total defeat; hence why they made the call they did.

    the point isn’t just the money, it’s that it’s a massive time and personnel sink to pursue that across the country.

    You don't have to take the point to lead the electoral part. I am not asking you to. No one is. You are being asked that when an uncomfortable, but strategic you should be ready to play your role in it.

    I am not lucky enough to live in a blue place. I live in Texas and have family scattered around. Some even in Mexico. We are not going to see the fruit of any DSA growth in NYC or its spread to other cities for a while. Let alone anything PSL.

    We as leftist are on a total back foot as far as our causes go. It is unwise to also be picky eaters as to where our influence might grow.

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  • [–] 4 points 1 month ago (5 children)

    the analogy only works if the democrats are the CPC, which they very much are not. they certainly are not interested in building independent revolutionary power and will sabotage any attempt at it.

    All war is class war.

    it's not tho, the slogan is 'no war but the class war'.

    additionally there's a distinction between wars of national liberation, defensive wars against genocide, and inter-imperialist conflicts that workers have no stake in.

    You are being asked that when an uncomfortable, but strategic you should be ready to play your role in it.

    if a party don't share any core values or objectives with me and considers me and people like me expendable, it is not strategic to vote for them. Have you ever tried to ask a democrat politician to do something they didn't already want to do?

    I am not lucky enough to live in a blue place.

    it's not like i was born here, i had to work hard for this. the vast majority of whatever family remains for me is on the other side of the planet. i prefer to focus on the people in my life in the here and now, and they are actively being harmed by democrats who choose to comply with trump against all protestation.

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  • [–] -2 points 1 month ago (4 children)

    f a party don’t share any core values or objectives with me and considers me and people like me expendable, it is not strategic to vote for them. Have you ever tried to ask a democrat politician to do something they didn’t already want to do?

    And no one is saying you need to join the party. Just to be strategic about the matters. Simply refusing to participate in because of your purity seems to me that you are not serious about the issues. You are functionally saying that there is opposition so you are just folding.

    it’s not like i was born here, i had to work hard for this.

    And I am happy for you, but regardless of how hard you worked for it, it is still a point of privileged for you. Lot of people like you have also worked hard, yet they don't have the same result to show for it or anywhere close. They are also facing a possible uninspiring dem flipping their red senate in texas or a county seat or a crusader rep. There is no good option, but there is still a preferable. Your position is to simply say to bad and offer no assistance as it makes you feel dirty.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 month ago (3 children)

    And no one is saying you need to join the party.

    i mean yeah including me, cause i didn't say that. i even said i vote in democrat primaries; if someone shitty wins the dem primary (like usual) then them winning the state is already a fait accompli. i don't see what's the goal of demanding i vote for them or display 'loyalty' at that point.

    You are functionally saying that there is opposition so you are just folding.

    no i am saying that if democrat politicians would rather arrest my comrades than stand up to trump, they are not people i am going to support. rather than participating in an electoral charade around these kinds of people i would rather engage in direct action with other likeminded people to embarrass them and highlight their supreme cowardice. trying to invoke communist terms in order to get me to support people that are manifestly not communists is not going to sway me.

    it is still a point of privileged for you.

    nowhere have i said not to vote, i probably vote more regularly than most of these blue maga cultists.

    however, it's just a waste of time and effort to try to sway a bunch of suburban hitlers to vote for someone that doesn't suck ass. i prefer to work outside of electoral politics with people that don't take that level of convincing. i also sincerely think that working outside of electoral politics is a better strategic decision than putting any effort into a party that would rather see me dead.

    what good is living in a blue state if your spineless democratic government is doing whatever trump says in advance? not to mention how they've been allowing fascist goon squads to kidnap people off the street.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 month ago (2 children)

    what good is living in a blue state if your spineless democratic government is doing whatever trump says in advance? not to mention how they’ve been allowing fascist goon squads to kidnap people off the street.

    That you no longer have to vote blue no matter who and start pushing more safely DSA/PSL. Going dem is not the end goal.

    Talk to your fellow MLs about being strategic and pragmatic.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 month ago* (1 child)

    Talk to your fellow MLs about being strategic and pragmatic.

    as i keep saying, i'm an anarchist; pretty much all of the anarchists and marxists i know personally vote in the same way i do.

    engaging in these threads always feels like other people are arguing with a caricature of me in their head rather than engaging with what i'm saying.

    That you no longer have to vote blue no matter who and start pushing more safely DSA/PSL.

    and in return i get to have democrat die-hards telling me that i'm a trump or russia supporter for that.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 month ago

    and in return i get to have democrat die-hards telling me that i'm a trump or russia supporter for that.

    Its unfortunate they don't get it, but they either make concession to us or we make a credible spoiler to the election.

    At the end of it we are not going to stop going left the way we won't stop for maga.

    as i keep saying, i'm an anarchist;

    You'd be a better messenger.

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  • [–] 19 points 1 month ago (2 children)

    None of us want Trump in charge. Accusing communists of being fascists or not supporting Palestinians simply because we emphasize the importance of grassroots organizing over trying to change the system from within is dishonest.

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  • [–] -3 points 1 month ago (1 child)

    Yet if you don't vote against fascists, you're legitimizing what they're doing. And voting doesn't mean you need to stop the grassroots organizing. Voting should be only one of many things you do when fighting against fascism, but it should still be one. Every American who did not vote for Harris knowing she was the only candidate with the ability to stop Trump 2.0 from happening, shares part of the blame for everything Trump's done this term. And no, this doesn't absolve the DNC from guilt for giving you a shitty candidate in the first place... But if your options are literally "let fascists win" or "bite the bullet and buy 4 more years to hopefully change things via midterms and primaries", what kind of a sick joke is telling everyone to NOT vote against Trump? That voting against Trump makes them support genocide? Millions upon millions have suffered because of it since January 2025. AS HE PROMISED.

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  • [–] 11 points 1 month ago

    I did vote against fascists, just not for the DNC, who are also a party of genocidal imperialists. Fascism is not an organic movement, it's what happens when the capitalist class realizes that bourgeois democracy stands to risk their control. It's also why voting can never establish socialism, or prevent fascism, it's the decision of a class that is in control of the state to begin with.

    A Harris presidency would have continued to see genocide in Palestine, as Biden did, and would have continued the US Empire as normal. Domestic conditions would likely have been a bit more stable, but the fundamental imperialist system that props up both the DNC and GOP would continue to face the same decay and reaction we see under Trump today.

    The only way to actually prevent fascism is to organize at the grassroots, and establish socialism through revolution. You place a horrendously false binary of "let fascists win" or "bite the bullet and buy 4 more years to change things via midterms and the primaries." The former is out of our control to begin with, and the latter is not an actual path forward. The only path forward is revolution, which requires focusing our efforts on building a unified, disciplined, educated working class party that stands opposed to the imperialist system from the outside.

    Framing the hours of effort I give every week, every month, every year as "supporting Trump" because I don't take an electoralist focus is absurd. The only way to end the rule of the DNC and GOP is not through trying to reform the DNC from within, but from fighting the system directly.

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  • [+] -8 points 1 month ago (2 children)

    All the .ml users replying to you:

    "I don't want trump in power!" Proceeds to actively help trump and the GOP win elections at every opportunity

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  • [–] 12 points 1 month ago

    Struggling directly against the capitalist state at every opportunity, on the ground, is "actively helping Trump and the GOP win elections?" What kind of nonsense double-speak is this?

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