So much for the constitution

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[–] 230 points 2 months ago (17 children)

They're using weapon printing as the wedge, but this is really about protecting all manufacturers.

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  • [–] 154 points 2 months ago (15 children)

    This is the thing imo. Come in under “ban ghost guns” but 10 years from now you try to print a new battery door for your remote and get blocked because the design is the property of Samsung.

    Fuck Bambu and co, I’ll keep my voron around as long as humanly possible

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  • [–] 35 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago) (9 children)

    It’s more about protecting companies like Disney, Nintendo, etc, not replacement parts. 3D printing is rife with copyright infringement, and companies like those would absolutely love a way to block their IP from being printed, or to be able to sue those who do it.

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  • [–] 16 points 2 months ago (6 children)

    The way I see it, a person can print a company's IP as long as they're not trying to sell it.

    What are they going to do, sue me for drawing a picture of mario or making kirby out of clay? Printing for personal use is the same concept.

    I could see them going after 3D model designers who post stls of their IP. Personally I think if they're not selling it then it shouldn't be an issue, but I don't think the companies would see it that way, and I don't know exactly where the law stands on it.

    This is why they can't simply pass IP laws, but they're sneaking it in with the pretense of "protecting the children" (when most school shootings happen with guns that were legally obtained by the shooter or their parents...)

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  • [–] 3 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago) (2 children)

    Yeah, I don’t see how this is a problem. I mean people make all kinds of things without 3D printing. Think of a Star Wars stormtrooper set of armor. People have been making those for decades, and selling them, before 3D printers took over some of the work. I’m sure IP is part of the reason companies want to regulate 3D printing, but I’d also be willing to bet that they want to do the same shit they always do - insert themselves in the middle and force you to pay for designs. Whether it’s a Mario bros. minifig or a replacement knob for your clothes dryer.

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  • [–] 7 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago)

    I already have a modest library of stls on the nvme ssd in my linux laptop, and they can pry those out of my cold dead fingers, along with my 3D printer that works without an internet connection and I will never connect it to the internet or upgrade its firmware.

    I'm like racing to purchase all the tech I might need in the next decade or so before they make it impossible to find non-userlocked hardware without a bunch of obligatory backdoors. It sucks because everything is just so unnecessarily expensive now. I wish I had started sooner but I thought I was being financially responsible at the time by not splurging...

    Like I have a DMR and an SDR, a raspberry pi, a few different MCUs, some FPGAs and CPLDs, a collection of various electronic components, rechargeable batteries of various kinds, a couple powerbanks and a portable 30W solar panel. A logic probe, multimeter, gauss meter. A kit for an oscilloscope that I haven't built yet.

    Next I want to build a homelab, I'm already working on collecting the things I need for that. I also want to get a higher capacity power bank and a 100W portable solar panel. I want to get a weather station, air quality sensor, geiger counter, etc. I just can't purchase it all at once.

    Meanwhile I also need to install all the software packages I would need, or at least download their package builds so I can install them when I need to. I want to make an archive of several different linux ISOs, a library of game assets from itch.io, etc., as many kiwix libraries as possible, etc. etc. etc.

    I have this nagging feeling that the downfall of modern society, supply chains, the classic internet infrastructure, etc., is right around the corner, and it feels like a race against time to prepare everything I would need to establish my own little intranet "island" that I could later mesh with others when the time comes. Which also means learning cybersecurity. Sigh...

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  • [–] 2 points 2 months ago*

    One person making a Star Wars set of Armor for themself isn’t a worry for Disney.

    That person posting the STLs on the internet, allowing millions of other people to make them too, many of who will try and sell the designs and/or finished product, is a worry for Disney.

    That’s the beauty of 3d printing, but it’s the thing that IP holders hate - and the IP holders with deep pockets can and do influence legislators.

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  • [–] 1 point 2 months ago (2 children)

    They do try and sell it though, that’s the problem.

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  • [–] 1 point 2 months ago (1 child)

    Then they should go after the commercial use of unlicensed intellectual property, not the ownership of a 3D printer...

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  • [–] 2 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago)

    Don’t for one second think I’m defending these laws and the dolts making them. To them, being able to control what you can print in the first place is 10000000x more powerful than trying to sue everyone that sells them.

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  • [–] 2 points 2 months ago (4 children)

    How long was building your voron? And how much did it cost you?

    I would like to do it in the future, but right now time is a big constraint for me

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  • [–] 2 points 2 months ago (3 children)

    mine the older 2.1 design and scratch built. Hard to say because a lot of parts were grabbed from other projects

    If I were starting today I’d just get a kit. The LDO kit is the standard and high quality but pricier.~1500 for 350mm. There’s the formbot kit as well, much cheaper (~800 for 350mm) but not as nice quality wise. Never used one of these kits but that’s the general sentiment on the forums now. West3d also has a kit builder, this is def the most expensive option but if you plan to install a bunch of mods this can save you some money buy bundling them at the beginning (but honestly if you’ve never built one before I’d start with the vanilla build)

    Time wise it’s not too bad, sort of. I would say if you’re a tinkerer type person you could build it in a weekend, especially with a kit. However, you may spend quite a bit more time calibrating everything. Like the time from a box of shit to actually printing isn’t terrible, but the time to getting a beautiful dimensionally accurate print is potentially a bit more involved, especially before you get it printing fast (if you pursue such a thing)

    That’s honestly the primary reason Bambu is destroying in terms of sales right now (plus aggressive marketing). They are shit bc they are consumer hostile, but they do make good equipment. You can get a solid print right from the first startup. You can with voron too tbf but it’s like comparing an iphone to desktop Linux: the former is easier to setup and has a lot of slick features for use, the latter can replicate almost all of them but takes a bit more time to get going (and because it’s open design can be taken much further once you get the hang of it, vorons can get amazing quality at incredibly fast speeds though tbf some of those mods to get truly fast can be pricy)

    Alternatively look on their discord or somewhere like Craigslist/facebook marketplace. I see people sell LDO builds for like 6-900 a lot. Resale is tough because once built it’s a nightmare to ship so they drop value like crazy and then you can (hopefully) get one that’s at least printing decently

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  • [–] 1 point 2 months ago (2 children)

    I got gifted a Bambu P1S a few years ago, but customization is pretty limited.

    I like the idea of the Voron and it's upgradability but the initial time investment was really high for me.

    Thanks for sharing your information. I am a tinkering person, so I don't feel lost when doing projects like that, but since I am in Canada, sourcing parts was terrible when I looked a few years ago. The LDO kits seem pricy, but I will look for alternatives. But at least, the option's there.

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  • [–] 1 point 2 months ago (1 child)

    FWIW from what I’ve read the formbot kit seems to be pretty serviceable, almost 50% less and is still pretty good, though by most accounts I’ve seen the LDO kit is objectively better (for a significant premium)

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  • [–] 132 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago) (11 children)
  • [–] 16 points 2 months ago* (8 children)

    That seems like a nightmare to set up.

    Feels like people casually mocking car registration by pointing to the Hot Rod from Home Improvement.

    I mean, sure. It can be done. But I failed to install a water cooling kit in my computer after a very long and harrowing weekend. I'm not fucking with this.

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  • [–] 13 points 2 months ago (7 children)

    It more like mocking car registration because every neighborhood has a few people who can build you a car from scratch in a day, the city already has several thousand car factories that don't require registration, there's no mechanism to enforce registration, and the cost of building a new car is a few hundred dollars. The motivation for requiring registration is also to stop people from driving full speed into fast food restaurants is custom built murder buggys. Yeah, you don't want people to do that but it's not like it really happens all that often.

    Building a 3d printer from a kit is different from building one from scratch. It's basically screwing parts together and plugging colored wires into matching slots.

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  • [–] -3 points 2 months ago (6 children)

    every neighborhood has a few people who can build you a car from scratch in a day

    How many cars does the city demand be produced each day? Cause my own city of Houston sees over 380k new cars sold annually.

    the city already has several thousand car factories that don’t require registration

    Itty bitty ones, sure. And they take weeks to produce a working vehicle, of substandard quality.

    there’s no mechanism to enforce registration

    Until you get pulled over

    the cost of building a new car is a few hundred dollars

    A plastic car that can go maybe a few hundred miles before falling apart if it's made perfectly.

    Building a 3d printer from a kit is different from building one from scratch

    You can build cars from a kit, too. But I'm not going to do that when I can buy a used Corolla or KIA for couch cushion money and drive it into the ground over the next fifteen years.

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  • [–] 3 points 2 months ago (5 children)

    I'm not sure honestly sure what your point is, because you went a bit too far with the analogy.

    Itty bitty ones, sure. And they take weeks to produce a working vehicle, of substandard quality.

    This was about regulating 3d printers, not guns. A diy printer, a new drm printer and an old not-drm printer produce the same quality output.

    A diy 3d printer is just as durable as a purchased one.

    If your goal is to have an unregistered car, or in this case a drm free printer, the law seems silly when you can get one for cheaper than the "proper" one and have it out together in an afternoon if you have highschool level mechanical aptitude.

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  • [+] -13 points 2 months ago (4 children)

    I’m not sure honestly sure what your point is

    3D printers produce plastic crap.

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  • [–] 7 points 2 months ago (3 children)

    Okay? What does that have to do with the drm mandate being easy to get around?
    Is your point that it's okay to put unenforceable, easily bypassed restrictions on stuff if you think they're bad?

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  • [–] -3 points 2 months ago (2 children)

    What does that have to do with the drm mandate being easy to get around?

    You can get around the DRM mandate with a bicycle. That doesn't mean you've solved the underlying problem

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  • [–] 1 point 2 months ago (1 child)

    Did you forget we were talking about 3d printers?

    You compared the people making fun of the drm mandate to people making fun of car registration because you can build a kit car, implying that building a 3d printer was a nearly insurmountable hurdle.

    Being able to trivially bypass the drm is exactly why it's laughable.

    Cars, bikes, or your dislike have nothing to do with the DRM mandate being toothless and stupid.

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  • [–] 4 points 2 months ago

    I genuinely think you might be talking to an LLM. Completely missing the analogy was one thing but supposedly being able to get around a 3D printer DRM with a bicycle is... an interesting proposition

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  • [–] 93 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago)

    You'd think with a title that says "California just passed a law", that it would actually be about California passing a law. It still has to go through the senate and then get signed by the governor.

    Edit: The bill was passed in the Assembly back in May. This is a nearly 3 month old article.

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  • [–] 72 points 2 months ago (12 children)

    How would this even be enforced?

    Like, it seems like it would be a trivial process to just install a firmware package without the blocks.

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  • [–] 64 points 2 months ago (2 children)

    It's probably just an extra charge they can throw at you if your house ever gets searched. Fuck hobby enthusiasts I guess

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  • [–] 5 points 2 months ago (5 children)

    it's enforced by stopping most people from trying to get into making 3d printer software. Imagine if california made browser drm required: no more open source browsers

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  • [–] 1 point 2 months ago (3 children)

    Imagine if california made browser drm required: no more open source browsers

    Why would that be the case? If I'm a programmer in New York, or Germany, why do I care if my open-source browser meets California's requirements? If there's any chance of litigation, can't you just slap "not for use in California" on it and call it a day?

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  • [–] 2 points 2 months ago (2 children)
  • [–] 1 point 2 months ago (1 child)

    Say the entire country of America bans 3d printers without DRM, why would a German 3D printing enthusiast stop developing their firmware?

    Note that I'm not saying these bans aren't bad. They certainly can and will cause harm to the community as a whole. But I don't see the argument of, "if it gets banned in x place, it goes away forever, for everyone". There are thousands of projects that are already illegal and exist without issue online. Piracy is illegal but still easily doable, it's already illegal in several states to 3D print certain gun parts but people still create the files and print them out.

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  • [–] 1 point 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago)

    If that hobbyist is okay with it not being hosted on github or any other american infrastructure sure. And they have to hope EU laws dont follow suit. When GDPR passed, California adopted similar legislation. Why cant it happen in the reverse exactly? Its not like the EU wants 3d printed guns around. How will they be increasing gdp spend on defense if they allow their citizens to arm themselves cheaply and outside the authority of the state?

    The EU already has considered laws banning gun stls. Why won't it require drm again?

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  • [–] 61 points 2 months ago (8 children)

    I’d love to know how they expect printer manufacturers to do this, given all they do is read gcode. Do the legislation makers even know what a slicer is?

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  • [–] 72 points 2 months ago (4 children)

    I went to a CA committee hearing (and I got to meet Louis Rossmann in the process) and I guarantee you the people supporting this bill and the committee voting on it generally have no idea what the fuck they're talking about.

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  • [–] 7 points 2 months ago (3 children)

    Serious question: why do they feel like they are qualified to make decisions on it then? Like if I was in that position, I would defer to an expert committee or professional association.

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  • [–] 17 points 2 months ago

    What happens is they do defer to the expert. The expert is a plant by which ever lobbiest chose to sponsor the bill. I'm had correspondences with my government about fields I am intimately familiar with and their arguments about technical feasibility were given to them by their Big4 "expert". The problem is I know the field well enough to understand their expert is simply giving the opinion they were paid to give and the technical feasibility of the proposals take a back seat to the political desire of the people pushing the proposal.

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  • [–] 11 points 2 months ago

    If it ever take forms, it will be absolutely unenforceable with how many devices currently operates. Aside from a ban on open hardware (good luck with that), nothing will happen.

    Unfortunately, being technically impossible to enforce is of little consequence. It just becomes a convenient law to pull out if they want to hammer you down and you happen to have a 3D printer that don't have this built-in.

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  • [–] 55 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago) (3 children)

    The standards will not mandate perfect efficacy – they will allow for “an acceptably low level of evasion” against a bank of identified design files.

    They've just admitted that it won't work. It will rely on a bank of banned designs which means anyone can just modify them until the algorithm doesn't recognize it as such while still being functional or simply make their own designs. Whoever finds a way to evade those restrictions will pass on the word.

    Sucks that this will act as a push to lock down 3D printer firmware for everyone else though. Mass enshitification inbound. The only hope I see is that 3D printer manufacturers will simply get out of California as a result instead because the expense of developing such an algorithm and the risk of fines if it is not performing well enough are too great to be worth it.

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  • [–] 18 points 2 months ago (2 children)

    Any such algorithm would be patched out of a jailbroken version of the firmware in minutes. 3D printers are already running on FOSS, so this is worse than useless. Anyone who wants to print a working gun will be able to do so trivially.

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  • [–] 43 points 2 months ago (2 children)

    Good luck with that... 3D printers are not complicated and you could build one yourself if you wanted to.

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  • [–] 0 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago)

    The software might be complicated enough in the future that you would not be able to just make your own slicer with all the features, like we have with browsers now.

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  • [–] 24 points 2 months ago*

    I can't wait for the EU to eagerly adopt this like they do for a lot of these dogshit US decisions.

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  • [–] 24 points 2 months ago (2 children)

    This what happens when a state is controlled by idiots. I wish we had opposition party that were not a bunch of boot licking freaks.

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  • [–] 20 points 2 months ago (10 children)

    Has a 3d printed gun been used in a crime? Ever?

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  • [–] 21 points 2 months ago (6 children)
  • [–] 23 points 2 months ago (4 children)

    Did Luigi Mangione do anything wrong?

    News to me.

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  • [–] 13 points 2 months ago (3 children)

    Not all illegal activities are morally wrong.

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  • [–] 2 points 2 months ago

    Very few. The ATF's definition of "ghost gun" also includes ordinary firearms that have had the serial number filed off (which is a crime to do). The vast majority of crimes committed with "ghost guns" are committed with those; ordinary guns with the serial numbers scratched off

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  • [–] 18 points 2 months ago* (6 children)

    The standards will not mandate perfect efficacy – they will allow for “an acceptably low level of evasion” against a bank of identified design files.

    So they except this is basically an impossible task. Essentially they're just going to check that the algorithm can detect the test examples, and then anything beyond that is an acceptably low level of evasion apparently.

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  • [–] 6 points 2 months ago (4 children)

    In the same way you can buy all the stuff to make a bomb without ending up on a list, but if you do it the stupid way you're going to get the SWAT team at your door.

    The 3d printer firmware is bullshit outright IMO, but this seems like the most sober-minded attempt. NY's law on the other hand is a fat lol

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  • [–] 3 points 2 months ago* (1 child)

    Anyone who was a serious threat is by definition not going to do it the stupid way anybody who gets swatted is an idiot and probably wasn't a threat to begin with, except to themselves.

    It's already illegal to shoot people so why is it more illegal to shoot people with a plastic gun?

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  • [–] 2 points 2 months ago

    I agree, yet people get caught. This makes simply authorizes that, which I'm not inherently against. All I'm saying is, of all the things in the world, this isn't the absolute worst thing that could happen and at least it isn't (currently) being used by that state as a pretext for even more surveillance.

    It isn't more illegal to shoot people with a plastic gun; if anything it's less illegal because you don't need to lie on a form about your status to obtain a gun.

    I think your arguing with what you think I'm saying instead if what I actually said. I believe we're in agreement with different nuanced takes that affect that agreement. I agree this is dumb and a bad precedent that will likely be ineffective (just like virtually all other punitive preventative measures). I still think it could be worse.

    TL; DR: this law to me feels more along the lines of "let's stop giving away guns at candy shops" than "let's completely fix everything all at once" It's sober minded and an attempt at appeasing their constituency. I disagree with it, but it could be worse and probably won't hurt.

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  • [–] 17 points 2 months ago (1 child)

    Are we even fucking free any more?

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  • [–] 16 points 2 months ago (2 children)

    Just configured my router to block my new printer. Looking up how to set up Linux to block my slicer. Fuck this sucks.

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  • [–] 32 points 2 months ago (5 children)

    California needs to start pushing laws to shut down hardware stores, department stores, shopping malls, and office supply stores since you can buy things in those places to also create makeshift weapons.

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  • [–] 9 points 2 months ago (2 children)

    I have a mini mill in my garage. I makeb ghost firearms as a hobby.

    I have a bit of experience with a mill, but even if I *didn't * these are not hard skills to learn yourself. A couple hundred bucks for a mini mill on marketplace and a few hunted bucks for a blank and some tooling and anybody could be making ghost guns in their living room.

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