Tim Sweeney claims it’s a “Scarlet Letter” which makes players “try to kill the game”

Epic Games CEO Tim Sweeney has criticised rival Valve for forcing studios to disclose when they use AI in game development.

Epic recently showed how it was integrating AI into Unreal Engine 6.

Time Sweeney said:

“If you want to launch a game, and get it as widely publicized as possible, you’ve got to put it on Steam so people can wish list it, and if you want to play it on Steam, then you have to get this Scarlet Letter of AI attached to your product, and now there is a hater community trying to kill the game.

“I think it’s really irresponsible of Valve. They shouldn’t do it, because it makes it much, much, much harder for a game developer to have a chance of success. You have to choose from either not using tools that can make you way more productive, and probably failing due to competition that does.”

Which is totally ignoring the factor that the user should know about the purchase it makes and be able to decide for themselves. Transparency for the player is not a bad thing.

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[–] 129 points 4 months ago

And this, Tim, is why I spend most of my money at Steam.

This may shock you, but proudly parading that you want to fuck over consumers at every opportunity is not good incentive.

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  • [–] 260 points 4 months ago (2 children)

    Fuck you Tim Sweeney. Valve is right for putting that info up so people can make informed purchases.

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  • [+] 3 points 4 months ago (2 children)
  • [–] 13 points 4 months ago

    I mean, they've been around for 35 years and they do something like 5 billion USD a year in revenue. I think they're going to be fine.

    I don't necessarily want this iteration of Epic to be fine, but I'm sure they will be

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    [–] 218 points 4 months ago (4 children)

    Transparency so customers can make informed decisions is “irresponsible”? What a garbage take.

    If using AI is a “scarlet letter” that makes people hate your game then don’t use it?! The willful ignorance to customer preference is staggering.

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  • [–] 78 points 4 months ago (1 child)

    Also Sweeney "why do people like Steam more than the Epic store?"

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  • [–] 55 points 4 months ago (9 children)

    The more I read about Epic Games and their CEO Tim Sweeney, the more I dislike the company and the guy.

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  • [–] 29 points 4 months ago (7 children)

    They give you lot of reasons to. For me it was a personal thing when I really started to hate Epic Games. 2019 Epic purchased the studio of Rocket League, when the game was in a hype phase and I played and enjoyed it very much on my Linux system. Shortly after they removed the Linux support for the game and then they also removed it from Steam as well. Due to an update of the game it was no longer viable to support it on Linux they said.

    This really really bugged me on a personal level. Today I think the game is playable on Linux, I don't know exactly. But it requires Epic Games Launcher and probably account on them. To me the game is dead. And Epic killed it (for me).

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  • [–] 12 points 4 months ago* (2 children)

    Yes! This is exactly why I too hate epic. They could throw a free game at me, I'd still buy it on steam. I have no intention of going where I'm not wanted.

    And I was just getting good at rocket league

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  • [–] 10 points 4 months ago (1 child)
  • [–] 2 points 4 months ago (3 children)

    I still only play it through steam?

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  • [–] 4 points 4 months ago* (2 children)

    No offense, but did you not read what I wrote? Edit: Sorry, that was rude by me. They had removed the game in the past from Steam and the Linux support. I think years later they added Linux support again, but I already moved on. While we seem to be able to play through Steam, the Epic Games Launcher still runs in the background and an Epic account is needed too (I think, is that true?). And no one can purchase it on Steam anymore.

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  • [–] 1 point 4 months ago* (1 child)

    All I know is, I bought it on release day on Steam, have played it throughout the whole epic thing and still do, through Steam. I don't have epic installed on my pc. I don't know about linux support, I don't use it. It is however true that you can't get it on steam anymore, but it is free on Epic. I might have linked my steam profile to epic in order to play, not sure though, it's been a while.

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  • [–] 4 points 4 months ago

    When I say you need Epic Games launcher, then I don't mean you have to install it yourself. Usually these launchers (like Ubisoft or Rockstar) are installing it in the background and require additional resources. As said I'm not sure if this is true for the Steam version here too. If you don't play on Linux, then you didn't have the Linux issues then I guess. That was my main complaint, as the they took away the native Linux version and made it for months or longer unplayable for me. And that was a time when I had a lot of fun before Epic ruined it for me. If it worked for you the whole time, then good for you.

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  • [–] 55 points 4 months ago (3 children)

    The best thing about Tim Sweeney is that he consistently has the most wrong take on any issue. He's like the Lou Gehrig of being an idiot.

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  • [–] 3 points 4 months ago (1 child)

    right but look on the bright side, at least we have a useful idiot against google. speaking of that, did any good come out of that?

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  • [–] 53 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago) (4 children)

    "We must do X at any cost to the user because others will do it and get the money"

    This mentality has driven the games industry to become psychologically manipulative, subscription battleass and absolutely proprietary.

    Maybe the irresponsibility is in ourselves for giving those game companies money.

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  • [–] 48 points 4 months ago (1 child)

    Super strong “If I told you who I really was you’d never have slept with me!” energy.

    It’s called consent. If people wouldn’t want to engage with the content unless they were misled in some way then that amounts to manipulation and a violation of trust. Looks like Epic Games just told the whole world that they would lie to their customers if they felt like the truth would give them too much choice.

    Fuck ‘em.

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  • [–] 42 points 4 months ago

    Bitch-boy CEO whining about rival company that epitomizes everything he doesn’t have at every chance he gets, very typical behaviour just carry on

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  • [–] 33 points 4 months ago

    Tim Sweeney with a garbage take, seems like a normal day.

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  • [–] 30 points 4 months ago

    Nobody loves you Epic Games, fuck off.

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  • [–] 26 points 4 months ago

    Interesting that he frames LLMs as both a tool that he needs to use to compete, whilst also framing their use as a scarlet letter that will tank sales if he uses them.

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  • [–] 24 points 4 months ago

    If the game isn't made by people, I wish it a very merry get fucked and die.

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  • [–] 21 points 4 months ago (1 child)

    What kind of looney tunes universe does this motherfucker think he lives in

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  • [–] 20 points 4 months ago

    I'm making a game and I just ai for parts of the code and and for assets currently. I make it because I'm 43 and been programming my entire life and yet never took the time to make a game.

    If I ever were to release it on any store, I'd replace the assets with human made and declare that I've had LLM assistance in coding, no matter if there's a role about it or not.

    Basically I know it's important to some people and I don't want them to accidentally spend money on something they hate. It would be like sneaking meat into a vegetarian dish.

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  • [–] 18 points 4 months ago (1 child)

    Indie games like Stardew Valley and Undertale don't need generative AI, skill issue much?

    What next, it's "irresponsible" to mention the system requirements because people won't buy games that are too advanced for their device, which is depriving devs of sales?

    Maybe being anti-consumer isn't the best strategy to bring those "consumer" things to your marketplace, Tim.

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  • [–] 1 point 4 months ago

    Stardew Valley and Undertale

    Games developed before generative AI was widely available and usable for software development.

    TBF I believe indie games will benefit the most from generative AI. Letting a model have to worry about quaternions definitely makes things easier.

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  • [–] 17 points 4 months ago*

    I wonder why the man who makes money off engine royalties might have a problem with something that can dramatically affect sales after stuffing that engine with the crap people hate.

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  • [–] 16 points 4 months ago (1 child)

    All of this together is why there is so much media attack on Steam. Just think of the amount of fuckery we would be subjected to, if Steam was out of the equation.

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  • [–] 16 points 4 months ago

    Lol. The slopsmith is upset that you know about his slopsmithing.

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  • [–] 31 points 4 months ago (3 children)

    Tim Sweeney, the pedophile (protector) who insists that pedophiles aren't using Roblox to commit pedophilic crimes by preying on minors? That Tim Sweeney?

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  • [–] 43 points 4 months ago
    [–] 15 points 4 months ago*

    "Oh no, informing people allows them to decide for themselves, we can't have that! I, sweeney whiney, must protect the world from informed decisions!"

    • Tim Sweeney, wearing is burger king cardboard crown screaming in front of his mirror alone.
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  • [–] 15 points 4 months ago

    It is irresponsible to post such shit from the sweeney son of a bitch

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  • [–] 15 points 4 months ago

    It's really irresponsible for Tim Sweeney to be a such a fucking moron but he hasn't stopped that yet.

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  • [–] 27 points 4 months ago (3 children)

    "Think of the game-devs needing to make money" says a fat cat talking about a tool forged from game-dev's labour without compensation and disregarding any social contracts (i.e. copyleft software licenses).

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  • [–] 13 points 4 months ago (2 children)

    "Think of the game devs needing to make money"

    Says the former dev whose biggest success, Unreal Tournament, had little to do with Epic itself.

    1. Digital Extremes made the weapons and many of the default maps.
    2. Fan mods made most of the success of the first three games.

    And Fortnite started as a Pubg clone.

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  • [–] 13 points 4 months ago*

    And Fortnite started as a Pubg clone.

    It actually started as an MMO PvE co-op thing. The BR was an addon jankily tacked on, and it just took off because BR was the hot new shit everyone wanted to play, and got bigger than the original concept.

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  • [–] 13 points 4 months ago

    Man, Sweeney's been on a roll lately, hasn't he? Too bad I've got no idea what he's talking about most of the time

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  • [–] 23 points 4 months ago (2 children)

    So they can't not use AI because they'll lose out to studios that do (not sure about that one but whatever) but if they do use AI no one will buy the game.

    Pick one

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  • [–] 22 points 4 months ago (2 children)

    Another choice quote from the original IGN interview that this is from:

    Sweeney: [...] The only way that we can hope for new games coming into the market to be able to succeed when there's so much Metcalfe's Law at play and so many captive audiences in the really big games – you know, Fortnite, Roblox, PUBG Mobile, and a few other really huge ones – it's got to be that those games get momentum by connecting to the economies in other games. I think that can really reinvigorate the market if people are constantly looking to new games and sources of new items that they can earn everywhere and be able to really easily move together with their friends.

    Guy got talked into the whole blockchain NFT crap so hard that he's still trying to make it happen, as if it was ever a desirable thing that the best way to get some kind of gear or cool cosmetics in game A involves playing game B instead.

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  • [–] 9 points 4 months ago (1 child)

    If I'm understanding his comment, it doesn't make sense at all. He wants people to discover new games......by playing the same big 4 games that everybody already plays, and aren't unknown.

    What?

    I don't even know where to start, to the point that I'm assuming I'm missing something here. Thats how little sense it makes. I'm at a point where the only logical conclusion is that I'm misunderstanding his statement.

    Because otherwise......where do you even go from there? If you heard this guy saying these things on the bus, you'd just assume he's mentally unwell.

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  • [–] 3 points 4 months ago

    He saw how big Roblox market share was and decided that he wanted it. That’s why Epic is integrating UE6 into the Fortnite ecosystem. All so he could collect his 63% from each sale (potentially more with UE6 fees). It’s not about making new games easier to find, it’s about becoming monopoly.

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  • [–] 11 points 4 months ago

    What really is irresponsible is using amalgamations of stolen work and presenting it as the future

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  • [–] 18 points 4 months ago (2 children)

    how about Tim Sweeney disclose of these nuts?

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  • [–] 9 points 4 months ago (4 children)

    Remember when the Epic Games Store was so bad that anti-virus software was identifying it as a threat?

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  • [–] 8 points 4 months ago* (1 child)

    Epic are currently trying to make a push into mobile after preparing the way with all those lawsuits, but their mobile app store shows they learned absolutely nothing from how poorly EGS was received.

    How bad is it? So bad it doesn't even have a library. To know which games you own, you have to browse the list of all apps on the store and find the ones that have their price replaced by a download icon.

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  • [–] 8 points 4 months ago

    Got to keep shoveling that minimum viable product slop, but heaven forbid a label which might serve as an indication for it.

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  • [–] 7 points 4 months ago
    [–] 7 points 4 months ago (1 child)

    That dickhead wouldn't understand responsibility if it tattooed a scarlet R onto his chest.

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  • He wouldnt understand responsibility if it fucked him in every orifice for like nine hours straight and read him to sleep while cuddling after.

    Or choked him with his own intestines or whatever thing I'm sure wed all rather imagine happening to him that might not necessarily aid understanding in an easily legible way.

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  • [–] 10 points 4 months ago (2 children)

    If I am buying an "AI" game I'll pay a couple of bucks and no more as there are no labour costs involved. If I'm buying from a company that supports human beings, I'll pay about 50-100 bucks, depending on the game.

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  • [–] -2 points 4 months ago (1 child)

    This is such a terrible take.

    Just because AI was used doesnt mean there's wasn't immense amount of human hours put into it.

    These flags cover more than 'the entire game was vibe coded'

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  • Tim Swine-ny can you just stfu for once?

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  • Stfu sweeney

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  • [–] 4 points 4 months ago
    [–] 2 points 4 months ago

    Rinds me of the EA guy and the Runtime fee in Unity

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  • [–] 5 points 4 months ago

    Wouldn't competition that does also have the same requirements to publish on steam? Wtf is he talking about

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  • [–] 4 points 4 months ago

    He's got it all wrong. We don't want to kill the game, in my case, I just want to kill HIM.

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  • [–] 2 points 4 months ago

    Hilariously, the example cited in the article doesn't seem to actually count towards steams ai policy. Sweeney, you're just so very full of shit.

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  • [–] -4 points 4 months ago (9 children)

    There is definitely an overreaction to AI use, when specifically games can make very good use of it. Smaller teams can create better games, and using smaller AI models to run on a GPU during playing could enable some amazing new features for dialogue or dynamic storytelling.

    If there is any place where an AI hallucinating and riffing isn't a problem it's gaming.

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  • [–] 6 points 4 months ago (5 children)

    Completely missing the point.. Given that Artists work was basically used to train AI, a lot of them in particular would be hesitant to pay for something which possibly uses some of their work they didn't get paid for.

    Also, when I as a consumer see AI has been used, it is closer to suggesting they took shortcuts to make the game

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  • [–] -2 points 4 months ago (4 children)

    Copying isn't stealing, and learning or training on public information certainly isn't. Your argument based on a vast expansion of what is "intellectual property" is disgusting and moronic and dangerous.

    If generative AI can generate useful work, who gets to profit from it? That is the only question since AI is inevitable. But you're arguing that only capitalists and large companies that can afford to "license" this new form of intellectual property may profit. I'm saying AI should be open source, and the ability to make use of this cheaper generative work should be able to be used by all for free.

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  • [–] 2 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago) (3 children)

    Or, these shitty ai companies could pay creators a small amount to use their content for training. What is the problem with that?

    There is no incentive for anyone to create original content anymore if AI will just steal it. Id argue that is dangerous

    Good luck with your Nvidia shares ..

    Don't even bring open source into this. Open source isn't about stealing work mate. It's about sharing it. And very few people consent to ai using their data. I know it copied a huge amount of data from our own website, despite the copyrights on it.

    The people who generally want this are generally people who don't contribute much of value that AI will steal

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  • [–] -1 points 4 months ago (2 children)

    Or, these shitty ai companies could pay creators a small amount to use their content for training. What is the problem with that?

    It's logistically impossible, and economically non viable. The AI companies are a bubble that will soon burst. And then consolidate and monopolize.

    But you want to ban all open source / weight AI models that ever possibly trained or learned from public information. You want to monopolize and give the AI companies ultimate power and control over AI, by creating the legal framework to make models never free.

    Copyright covers reproduction, not learning. Books, articles, comments are all public information.

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  • [–] 1 point 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago) (1 child)

    Lets thought experiment..

    If I create a local AI, and train in all the music, images and assets from GTA5 and then prompt it to create a game, with the GTA5 storyline with screenshots of videos of each storyline point and outcome.. Should that be legal? Should it suddenly make it legal if I add 1 extra image that is public domain and got blended into it a bit?

    Whether it is legal now, and whether it SHOULD be legal are two different things.

    The laws simply haven't caught up yet.. Just because AI blends up a bunch of images it was never given permission to use and you can't trace where they were from, doesn't mean it SHOULD be legal to do so. Thats the problem.

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  • [–] 1 point 4 months ago

    That would be the one in a billion case where it could clash, unless it's "transformative artwork" and except from copyright, like you turn it into some kind of satire or social critique.

    The larger problem with this discussion is that you'll just deny facts. AI models don't just "blend images", that is disinformation. The models are too small and the input way too large. They are learning like an artist would, and if you would ask an artist to recreate the mona lisa or some iconic GTA5 scene he studied from memory, you'd get not dissimilar results.

    What will happen is simply that AI models with be monopolized, free use will be impossible and only corporations and capitalists will have access to using AI models to make some kind of money. Imagine an army of robots that you can just tell to do some job. But you'll not be allowed to build your own or operate one without paying license fees. The laws you look forward to will seal the permanent economic enslavement of humanity. And that will be that.

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  • [–] 2 points 4 months ago (2 children)

    What, in the past six years of hype bullshit, leads you to justify this profoundly charitable position?

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  • [–] -2 points 4 months ago* (1 child)

    It's about artistic freedom. I know how hard it is to program and make games and can imagine a better way using advanced (future) AI tools.

    The problem with game development is not just the amount of work, and the capital required, it is the intersection of complicated technology and artistic outcome. Almost all disciplines in computer sciences are part of video games. It isn't just hard and more time intensive than a single person can do, there is a higher risk of complete failure. You need high level of "technical intelligence" to even do it, which precludes a large number of potential artists.

    We have very few computer games that I consider "art". This not made to be pretty or profitable or entertainment, but something that shows you something new about the world. They do exist and they are labors of love or accidents, but they are rare. This is very different from other media like books or even movies. And movies are expensive and complicated affairs, but at least they have a linear nature.

    The fundamental issue with computer games as a medium is that it is near impossible to invent a truly new game, with new gameplay and a worthy story that is not linear, and then turn it into a viable product (not even talking about commercial success, but something that is approachable to a wide audience. Like art ought to be. See Façade (video game) - Wikipedia for example.

    AI has the potential to change all of this. The tools will become drastically more powerful and hardware and models cheaper to use.

    Now, in a 100 years you'd surely have the ability to create virtual worlds by descriptive prompt, like ordinary people in Star Trek can do with the holodeck. How do we get from here to there? What technology is needed? Imagine you prompt "make a GTA V clone but underground with dwarves" and you get a complete game generated where you can now play or create or tweak a narrative. That's what the holodeck can do in star trek, and what I always wished for ever since I was a little kid.

    Only then will we have the artistic freedom to create video games as art.

    Or think of dialogue that plays with you as you deviate, already examples exist with TTS. Or a game or dungeon master playing with you, throwing challenges in your way. Or a crafting component in the game, where you don't have to painstakingly paint textures and nudge vertices to create some new style of armor or weapon or a house. You can just describe it in detail.

    There are tons of problems with AI and society and the disgusting capitalists who will try to monopolize it. Making it easier or cheaper to create games isn't one of them.

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  • Nobody's saying its not allowed. Freedom not at issue. My freedom to know what I'm buying is being respected. A sticker on the box. A tiny tag in the corner of the entire store page.

    What future ai tools? This shit is a dead end, all the money and all the silicon has been ramming its head into a mountain of granite for six years. You can't even buy a gaming computer, much less get funding for real ai research, and the blowback is going to chill the field for decades. Again.

    'Art is hard' yeah, you aren't addressing that. The actual making of art is part of the art. You would fucking know that if you had ever made any. There is a difference between art and vibes.

    ai has

    Ai does not, at present, have jack shit. It can optimize my StarCraft build order. Which it could do in 2010.

    the new models that also don't do the thing are easier to run

    Cool, love that for them.

    in a 100 years

    I'll be fucking dead, and if we don't cut the shit on hyper consumption, everything but maybe roaches will too. Do you think data centers will outlive us by more than five minutes?

    in a 100 years

    You didn't even fucking respect me enough to write this yourself did you? Choke to death sucking lies out of sam altman's weird rapey dick, if you're not too old for him.

    I hate actually doing art, please someone else do it for me. I have no imagination and do not understand what art is

    But also

    nobody will play game with me I can't imagine having a gm

    Six years ago I think I would have offered to be this person's friend, or run a ttrpg for them, or teach them about art. But you can't even do that from here. They can't engage. There's no vector for salvaging humanity, and they don't even understand what they're not doing? How can I respect others with this shit poisoning their idiot-fat?

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  • [+] -6 points 4 months ago

    just make a good game. I dont care if it is made with or by AI.

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