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[–] 119 points 4 months ago (134 children)

Yeah this has definitely happened to me a few times

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  • [–] 47 points 4 months ago (133 children)

    Lemmy has proven to me that tankies have more in common with right wingers than liberals.

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  • [–] 55 points 4 months ago* (32 children)

    Yeah that's the thing about authoritarians; they don't have a problem with the boot, they just want it to be on the other foot. No better. Different axis, but the political compass looks more like a triangle than a square to me.

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  • [+] -29 points 4 months ago (30 children)

    Oh noooo authoritarians who use that power to build affordable housing and transportation infrastructure, break up monopolies and capitalist machinations which gouge people trying to pay for food and healthcare. No please noooooooo. Let's keep fighting this because it's no different from pedophile billionaires destroying the planet. /s

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  • [–] 18 points 4 months ago (11 children)

    Thanks for proving their point too.

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  • [+] -27 points 4 months ago (10 children)

    It's us or MAGA. Time to make a choice.

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  • [–] 18 points 4 months ago (7 children)

    Well that's the falsest dichotomy I've seen in awhile.

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  • [–] 0 points 4 months ago (6 children)

    That would mean you have a plan on how to win general elections without us.

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  • [–] 3 points 4 months ago (4 children)

    Run a moderate man and win every goddamn time, like we usually do?

    Hell, we even managed that one with a black dude...whose named sounded like our mortal enemy...twice. Just had to be somewhat in the middle so as to not scare what's left of the Boomers and X-wits.

    My dude, the Republicans haven't won an election without cheating since Eisenhower. Literally, not a single one.

    You want to run a far left candidate into that propaganda-bubble buzzsaw, have at it. You'll lose 40 states, both houses of Congress, and what's left of our civil liberties, but at least you'll get to feel smug for 6 months.

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  • [–] 1 point 4 months ago* (3 children)

    You’ll lose 40 states, both houses of Congress, and what’s left of our civil liberties, but at least you’ll get to feel smug for 6 months.

    How do you not see this for the projection that it is?

    You're tacitly acknowledging leftists aren't in charge. People who think like you, liberals, are. You're responsible for the outcomes and gestures look at who you're losing to.

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  • [–] 0 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago) (2 children)

    next time just admit you didn't fucking read what I wrote and save us all the trouble.

    I literally, fucking literally, explicitly made one point: NOMINATE A MODERATE MAN AND WE WIN.

    Then you go on citing losing to Trump, who beat two fucking women, one of whom is wrongly tagged as a liberal.

    LEARN TO READ BEFORE YOU COMMENT AGAIN.

    EDIT and yes I know what the fuck I am talking about. I have worked for both political parties in my lifetime and gotten people from both sides elected. All in the middle.

    You want a left-wing government? Shift the overton window one election at a time, like the goddamn Republicans did over 50 years. Trying to get that all in one election when it took them 50 years is just unserious, sophomoric logic.

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  • [–] 1 point 4 months ago*

    NOMINATE A MODERATE MAN AND WE WIN.

    ... you did that. In 2020. And here we are. Nobody forced you to make Harris the nominee. Leftists had zero control over that. Who's responsible for that failure?

    You want a left-wing government? Shift the overton window one election at a time, like the goddamn Republicans did over 50 years.

    ... with your help.

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  • [–] 2 points 4 months ago* (10 children)

    The authoritarians don't do that, we do. You think Stalin was out there laying track?

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  • [–] 2 points 4 months ago (9 children)

    He was calling for the deaths of the delivery driver whose load broke because of poor manufacturing quality.

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  • [–] 0 points 4 months ago (8 children)
  • [–] 0 points 4 months ago (7 children)

    It's the shit rolls down principle. The plant manager may have tuned the machine for say panes of glass to be 1mm thinner to stretch out supply and meet demand. This made it more fragile. While in transport the glass breaks, they blame the driver and send him to the gulag instead of the manager. Based on laws and expectations Stalin would have them summarily executed because he would blame the driver as well.

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  • [–] 1 point 4 months ago* (6 children)

    I have no idea how that concept relates to the present discussion. Sounds like really shit management yeah.

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  • [–] 0 points 4 months ago (5 children)

    Pointing out Stalin was the enemy of the working man too.

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  • [–] 1 point 4 months ago (4 children)

    You know who has a worse prison system than soviet Russia? America. More non violent prisoners than any country to ever exist, plus they actively practice slavery using their prisoners.

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  • [–] 0 points 4 months ago (3 children)
  • [–] 0 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago) (1 child)

    "Ah, finally free from the tyranny of capitalism!" – the tankie says, barely audible over the sounds of a random minority group being mulched in the background

    Uhhuh. Capitalism is evil. Wait... Why's it evil again? Right; because of the suffering and harm it causes, and siphons the power from many into the hands of a few. And the authoritarian "left" is better because... Trains. Or something. But, come to thinks of it... You know, I heard Germany had a pretty decent rail system too. So perhaps that isn't the bar by which we should measure success as a society.

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  • [–] 7 points 4 months ago (45 children)

    That's funny, I had the opposite experience. When Israel started doing it's genocide, all the liberals on here were defending it, while the tankies were on the right side of history right from the start.

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  • [–] 17 points 4 months ago (12 children)

    When Israel started doing it's genocide, all the liberals on here were defending it

    Where? Is there one example? I never saw one.

    I saw a bunch of people hoping trump won over it though. Which made less than no sense.

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  • [–] 4 points 4 months ago (10 children)

    You've never seen liberals screaming about voting for Biden or Kamala prior to the election on here? I couldn't open the website without seeing it. That's defense of the genocide, lol.

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  • [–] -2 points 4 months ago (9 children)

    Voting for a candidate because they are better than the other guy is not an enforcement of all their policies, and pretending it is is a psyop for the opposition.

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  • [–] 2 points 4 months ago (8 children)

    No, it's voters accepting garbage politicians and policies.

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  • [–] -1 points 4 months ago (7 children)

    How do you propose voters not accept them?

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  • [–] 1 point 4 months ago (6 children)

    You.. Don't vote for them. Are all Americans this fucking braindead, lol?

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  • [–] 0 points 4 months ago (5 children)

    Great! Now we have concentration camps AND the genocide has spread to Lebanon. I hope you are proud of yourself.

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  • [–] 2 points 4 months ago (4 children)

    Why would I be proud of myself? I hope your state collapses and is balkanized. Once that happens Israel loses support and there can be peace in the middle east maybe.

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  • [–] 1 point 4 months ago

    In October of 2023, when Israel started its genocide (and yes, in week 1 we already knew it was a genocide), liberals were falling over themselves defending it. On .world especially. You can go back to the Israel-related threads at the time for yourself. This predates the 2024 US election by a fair amount btw.

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  • [–] 8 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago) (4 children)

    When did that happen? The closest was people pointing out, correctly, that if you actually cared about Israel's actions it was obvious that Trump would be worse. That's not defending genocide, that's trying to prevent people from making stupid decisions for noble reasons.

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  • [–] 1 point 4 months ago (3 children)

    You know the genocide predates the US election by about a year right? People were not talking about Trump. You can go back for yourself, on lemmy.world, in October 2023, liberals were defending Israel's genocide en masse.

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  • [–] 1 point 4 months ago (2 children)

    Yeah I didn't see any of that. I saw people speaking up for Palestine. I can't say with certainly that it never happened, but it definitely wasn't "en masse".

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  • [–] 1 point 4 months ago (1 child)

    Oh wow, we're already in the "one day, everyone will always have been against this" era. Great. Liberal amnesia is a hell of a drug.

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  • [–] 1 point 4 months ago

    I'm telling you what I saw, and I was extremely active. I saw no significant defense of the Biden/Harris administration on Gaza except when it came to the election, and again only to point out that Trump would be objectively worse.

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  • [–] -1 points 4 months ago (26 children)

    When Russia started their genocide in Ukraine those same tankies cheered it though.

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  • [–] 10 points 4 months ago (25 children)

    I'm sorry, the invasion of Ukraine is a terrible thing, and definitely illegal, but it is not a genocide. Not a single human rights organization or anything like the ICJ, UN, ICC is calling it a genocide.

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  • [–] 6 points 4 months ago (4 children)

    Youre right I don't think it's correct at all to call it a genocide. I think they're just hypersensitive to the minimizing language tankies use a lot, where a lot of historians said "the uyghur genocide" and tankies say "uhm technically there was no mention of genocide from this international rights body so that's an overreaction." The implication being that sure it's not good what's happening to them, but it's not THAT bad.

    Tankies do a similar thing with Ukraine where they say "they're just taking back some of the land they rightfully control," or some other minimization.

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  • [–] 5 points 4 months ago (3 children)

    No when you kidnap children, strip them of their citizenship and forcibly adopt them out that’s genocide.

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  • [–] 2 points 4 months ago (2 children)

    Technically that's ethnic cleansing.

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  • [–] 1 point 4 months ago (1 child)

    Article II

    In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:

    1. Killing members of the group;
    2. Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
    3. Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
    4. Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
    5. Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.

    https://www.un.org/en/genocide-prevention/definition

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  • [–] 1 point 4 months ago

    with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group

    This part matters a lot. If we ignore it, anyone killing any member of any group can be said to commit a genocide. Showing this is typically quite difficult in court cases, because it's pretty hard to read someone's mind, and very few people are stupid or arrogant enough to announce such intentions.

    Israeli officials are either so stupid or arrogant, going around saying stuff like "kill them, kill their mothers, kill their children", "It’s an entire nation out there that is responsible. ... This rhetoric about civilians not aware, not involved, it’s absolutely not true.", “If we don’t give them food, they will move...”, and so on. And please don't underestimate this "and so on". There's pages and pages of Israeli officials basically saying "we're committing genocide".

    Normally it takes years of investigative work after the fact to even get a peep out of the ICJ, but here they conceded that Israel is plausibly committing a genocide about 4 months in. That's huge. And a key part of that is the fact that South Africa showed Israel's intent. And that's just something we haven't done for Russia's actions yet. Russia's illegal invasion of Ukraine has been going on for years, and there's no plausible genocide ICJ ruling against Russia, and not for lack of trying. The evidence of intent has as of yet not been found.

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  • [–] 4 points 4 months ago (2 children)

    Russia is currently not in the position to carry out a genocide, unlike Israel, so technically that can be correct. However, not everything is in the actions, something is in the intent as well (trying to commit a crime and failing can still be illegal and punishable), and Russia has made its heinous plans quite clear.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/What_Russia_Should_Do_with_Ukraine

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  • [–] 7 points 4 months ago (1 child)

    However, not everything is in the actions

    That is absolutely correct. Genocide, however, is not one of those things. A significant portion of the definition of genocide consists of actions. So when you say someone is committing a genocide, you're saying they're doing some specific stuff with some very specific intentions. One of the two is not enough. You need both.

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  • [–] -1 points 4 months ago (16 children)

    Thank you for proving my point.

    Ukraine is a genocide. ICJ is trying a case about that very fact.

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  • [–] 4 points 4 months ago (15 children)

    https://www.ejiltalk.org/another-setback-for-ukraine-the-icj-declares-russias-counter-claims-in-the-ukraine-v-russia-genocide-case-admissible/

    The ICJ is hearing counterclaims that Ukraine is committing genocide. So by your standards, Ukraine is committing genocide too. That doesn't hold up to my standards, so I don't believe Ukraine is committing genocide (or Russia for that matter).

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  • [–] -3 points 4 months ago (14 children)

    I only brought up the ICJ because you mentioned it but I don’t need anything besides my eyes to see the truth of the genocide that’s happening.

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  • [–] 3 points 4 months ago* (13 children)

    Ok I guess we have slightly different standards for calling things a genocide then. What did your eyes see that makes you call Russia's illegal invasion a genocide? What is your personal definition of genocide?

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  • [–] 0 points 4 months ago (12 children)

    Article II

    In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:

    1. Killing members of the group;
    2. Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
    3. Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
    4. Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
    5. Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.

    See the fifth part where the Russians stripped Ukrainian children of their nationality, forced Russia nationality on them and forcibly adopted them to Russians.

    https://www.un.org/en/genocide-prevention/definition

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  • [–] 3 points 4 months ago (11 children)

    Evidence they're being stripped of their Ukrainian identity?

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  • [–] 0 points 4 months ago (10 children)

    Are you not worried about the kidnapping and forcible adoption parts?

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  • [–] 3 points 4 months ago (9 children)

    Should kids that are stuck in a warzone be left to die? Should orphaned children not be given a chance at a normal life if you can't find their parents?

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  • [–] 1 point 4 months ago (8 children)

    If someone invaded your house would you want them to kidnap your children to keep them safe?

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  • [–] 3 points 4 months ago (7 children)

    Can you provide a source for children being deliberately kidnapped from their homes?

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  • [–] 0 points 4 months ago (6 children)
  • [–] 3 points 4 months ago (5 children)

    I'm not denying kids are winding up in Russia's custody. That's what should happen. They shouldn't just get lost in the streets or worse part of an active warzone, and if they are orphans then they should be given a house.

    Do you have evidence that they specifically took children from their families to raise in Russian households?

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  • [–] 0 points 4 months ago (4 children)
  • [–] 3 points 4 months ago (2 children)

    Also this isn't even sealioning lmao. You just can't provide evidence for your claims.

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  • [–] 0 points 4 months ago (1 child)

    During the Russo-Ukrainian war,[3] Russia has forcibly transferred almost 20,000 Ukrainian children to areas under its control, assigned them Russian citizenship, forcibly adopted them into Russian families, and created obstacles for their reunification with their parents and homeland.[7][8]The International Criminal Court (ICC) has issued arrest warrants for President of Russia Vladimir Putin[9] (who has explicitly supported the forced adoptions, including by enacting legislation to facilitate them)[1] and Children's Rights Commissioner Maria Lvova-Belova for their alleged involvement.[9] According to international law, including the 1948 Genocide Convention, such acts constitute genocide if done with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a nation or ethnic group.[10][a]

    Child abductions in the Russo-Ukrainian war

    You won’t believe a source that isn’t Putin or dessalines tell you directly though.

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  • [–] 1 point 4 months ago

    Congrats on copy and pasting from Wikipedia. Now let's focus on this bit: According to international law, including the 1948 Genocide Convention, such acts constitute genocide if done with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a nation or ethnic group.

    As I've already mentioned. It's a good thing not to let children be lost in a war zone. They should be looked after as if they were any other child, leaving them alone would be descrimination. Amd for those that are orphans there's nothing wrong with giving them a chance at an ordinary life. Now can you give evidence that what they're doing isn't them looking after Ukrainian children lost in a war as I'd hope Ukraine would also do if they found Russian children lost in the war, and that these acts are actually a deliberate way to destroy in whole or in part an ethnic group?

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  • [–] 4 points 4 months ago (3 children)

    Tankies are the ideological opposite but intellectual equivalent of libertarians, and it says a lot about society that anyone subscribes to either after high school.

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  • [–] 3 points 4 months ago (2 children)

    USA libertarians, correct? Because I constitute as libertarian in not wanting many if any rulers above the common people. Just that I'm also left and don't have a weird fascination with changing age of consent laws like right wing libertarians do.

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  • [–] 5 points 4 months ago (1 child)

    Early twentieth century anarchists often described themselves as libertarians. If that's what you mean, we can work together.

    US libertarians believe in a state that enforces private property laws but does nothing for the general welfare, basically gangsterism.

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  • [+] -7 points 4 months ago (48 children)

    Funny, Reddit has proven to me liberals prefer MAGA over leftists.

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  • [–] 8 points 4 months ago (46 children)

    I’d ask you for an example but we both know you wouldn’t be able to provide one.

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  • [+] -7 points 4 months ago (45 children)

    A vote for Joe Biden in the 2020 primaries wasn't a vote against Trump it was a vote against leftists and a dice roll against Trump.

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  • [–] 9 points 4 months ago (28 children)

    Yeah it was totally that and not because Biden, as former VP for a popular President, got credibility across the political spectrum as a safe choice after four years of President TMZ and All Those Rapes.

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  • [–] 1 point 4 months ago (20 children)

    And also because leftists are a useless political bloc.

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  • [+] 3 points 4 months ago (2 children)
  • [–] 3 points 4 months ago*

    That would mean Joe Biden won without them in the 2020 general election. Is that actually what you believe? Because that would mean yet another political bloc abandoned the Democratic candidate in the 2024 general election.

    When a political party is bleeding voters like this it's a problem with the party. If you support the party digging in their heels while this is happening you are part of the problem.

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  • [–] 7 points 4 months ago (1 child)

    Oh ho! Now you’ve done it! They’re totally double extra not gonna vote for your candidate now!

    They weren’t anyway but now . . . You just pissed off the least powerful non-voters in the electorate! Liberal!

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  • [–] 3 points 4 months ago (13 children)

    centrists get stuff done, right? Like that genocide they funded under Bidens term. Be proud!

    They also did a bang up job holding trump accountable for his insurrection and destroying republicans with the Epsten files. Remember that? so much winning. So much gotten done.

    And then you go claim leftists get nothing done. What a frickin joke.

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  • [–] 4 points 4 months ago (12 children)

    When was the last leftist president in office?

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  • [–] -2 points 4 months ago* (10 children)

    FDR. Who also happens to be among the last decent presidents of either party. You centrist DNC pond scum sellouts are still pretending you inherited his legacy, when you really inherited Ronald Reagans. And you cant win elections even running against a criminal clown like trump that anyone even halfway decent should be able to beat without trying. As long as those AIPAC paychecks keep showing though, thats what really matters, right?

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  • [–] 3 points 4 months ago (8 children)

    So eighty one years ago?

    When was the last law passed by a leftist federally?

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  • [–] 3 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago) (7 children)

    When was the last time our Democratic party centrist leaders sold us out or did something against the interest of the voters? A day or so.

    Betrayal is even worse than getting no laws past.

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  • [–] 3 points 4 months ago (4 children)

    Getting laws passed is pretty much a cornerstone of being a political party though.

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  • [–] 2 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago) (2 children)

    And yet, Harris lost because she couldnt get voters off the couch. Because she stood for nothing the voters wanted. It didnt matter that she said she was a continuation of Biden and Biden 'had passed some laws'. He'd also lost all support by not caring about his voters and betrayaing their wishes. Voter backlash exists and loses elections, whether you want to acknowledge it or not.

    Its like you missed the entire election, or else learned nothing at all from the loss.

    Also seems you never heard of the Whig party. They passed some laws, Why dont I see them on the ballot?

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  • [–] 0 points 4 months ago* (1 child)

    Ultimately Harris lost because enough democrats wouldn’t vote for a black women to give her those last couple percentage points she needed.

    Biden had the most progressive policies since Carter and his laws passed were widely considered great. So good that the first thing Trump did was reverse them.

    When was the last federal law passed that a leftist created? I see you dodged this question again.

    I’m done with answering any more of yours until you have the respect for this conversation to answer this one question.

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  • [–] 3 points 4 months ago (1 child)

    Anyways when was the last law passed by a leftist federally?

    I’ll keep asking until you answer.

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  • [–] 1 point 4 months ago

    well thats a pretty flimsy standard to throw up in the face of constant betrayal and selling out. But it certainly matches the usual centrists' "power for power sake, at any cost, and it doesnt matter how we use it" menatlity. Your approach to this is exactly how you find yourself supporting war crimes.

    Good job! Your kids will be so proud.

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  • [–] 1 point 4 months ago (6 children)

    You're almost there. What made Joe Biden the "safe choice"?

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  • [–] 3 points 4 months ago (5 children)

    What's crazy is you think this makes you clever.

    It doesn't. It just shows you're unreasonable and incapable of understanding context or nuance. In other words, you're either literally 15 or you're mentally 15.

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  • [–] 0 points 4 months ago (4 children)

    Give me a break. You know exactly where I'm going with this and so you cut it off and call me a teenager? Have a bit of self respect and admit I'm about to prove my point.

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  • [–] 2 points 4 months ago (3 children)

    All you're doing is slowly making the left-wing version of a dishonest Charlie Kirk "point."

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  • [–] 0 points 4 months ago* (2 children)

    Nothing dishonest about it. You know exactly what made Joe Biden the "safe" candidate.

    You prefer Charlie Kirk and MAGA to leftists.

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  • [–] 11 points 4 months ago (15 children)
  • [–] -1 points 4 months ago (14 children)
  • [–] 0 points 4 months ago (13 children)

    You went back six years to try to prove your point.

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  • [–] 1 point 4 months ago (12 children)

    The last time we had a legitimate primary was six years ago because liberals let Biden campaign long enough to prevent a legitimate primary in 2024. Because liberals prefer MAGA over leftists.

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  • [–] -1 points 4 months ago (11 children)

    I hate to point out the obvious flaw in your argument but who was the leftist who was denied a chance in the 2024 primary?

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  • [–] 4 points 4 months ago (5 children)

    He is partially incorrect in his claim about the 2024 primary. We had a primary in 2024 (not a legitimate one IMHO) but the 2024 primary does demonstrate liberals preferring MAGA over leftists.

    The uncommitted movement had ~25 percent of the vote in Michigan which was a swing state the Dems couldn't beat Trump without. The Dems chose to ignore this warning and continue funding the genocide.

    The liberals screaming at leftist over the last 18 months stems from leftists having solidarity with the Muslim community in Michigan when the Democratic party abandoned them for their Isreal donors.

    Also even if every third party vote had gone to Kamala in every swing state she still would have lost to Trump.

    The contension stems partly from liberals unwillingness to think critically about the failures of the democratic party. Preferring party loyalty and rejecting the wishes of the voters over accepting any constructive criticism from the left.

    You want to respond by defending the democrats. Perhaps saying people who voted third-party actually support Trump. Any excuse you make for the democrats loss proves the exact point I'm making.

    You'll attack the left even when they're offering constructive feedback and even when not listening to your left flank means MAGA winning. In other words, you would rather MAGA win than the left.

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  • [–] -1 points 4 months ago (4 children)

    Third party has never changed a modern election it’s the people who couldn’t bring themselves to vote for a black woman that swung things.

    Biden still could have comfortably won over Trump again.

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  • [–] 3 points 4 months ago (2 children)

    Judging by the fact they they hid the autopsy for years, it was because of the genocide and milquetoast neoliberal policies that she lost, not what's between her legs.

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  • [–] 0 points 4 months ago (1 child)

    they hid the autopsy for years

    Wasn't the election 590 days ago? That's not even two years...

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  • [–] 2 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago)

    I debated bringing this up in my original comment, but there were rumors the reason Nancy Pelosi started pushing so hard for Biden to drop out was; she found out that the internal Democratic Party polling showed Biden losing by hundreds of electoral college votes.

    Regardless, your response proves my point maybe better than any other response I’ve received here on Lemmy. As soon as any legitimate criticism pops up you throw black women under the bus rather than letting a leftist win, rather than admit a leftist has a point.

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  • [–] 2 points 4 months ago (4 children)

    Okay, will someone who disagrees with me explain to this guy how primaries work an incumbent is running? He's not going to believe anything I say.

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  • [–] 1 point 4 months ago (3 children)

    My question is who was the leftist?

    All you have to do is answer with a name.

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  • [–] 1 point 4 months ago (2 children)

    Politicians with serious political careers don't challenge an incumbent in a primary bud.

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