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[–] 145 points 5 months ago (1 child)
  • [+] 38 points 5 months ago (3 children)
  • [–] 25 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago) (15 children)

    The headline looks wrong, but it actually isn't.

    The article specifies:

    • Total capacity: 2.1GWh
    • Peak output: 1.2GW
    • Ramp up time: a few milliseconds

    That's what the "within milliseconds" in the title refers to.

    Every power generator has a ramp up time. Think the time it takes to start the engine in a diesel generator, until it spins up and is able to output peak power.

    Nuclear reactors can hare ramp-up times of hours, in some conditions even days.

    This thing here can go from zero to peak output within almost no time, which makes it perfect to balance the sometimes erratic and unpredictable generation fluctuations of renewable energy production.

    For comparison, coal or gas power generators usually have large flywheels that, once spinning, react almost instantly to power fluctuations in the network by converting their motion to electricity or the other way round. If these coal or gas generators aren't running, they can't be used to balance the fluctuations in the network, so battery solutions like the one in OP are required to actively manage the network stability.

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  • [–] 2 points 5 months ago (6 children)

    FYI. Hydro power has similar capacity and start up times

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  • [–] 6 points 5 months ago (1 child)

    Yeah, the downside of hydro though is that you need to have a fitting space to build it. You can't just excavate a random field somewhere and plonk a hydro dam right there.

    In most places all easy spots for hydro are already taken.

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  • [–] 6 points 5 months ago (3 children)

    Not quite - only the biggest hydro stations can generate a gigawatt or more, and their startup time is like 10 minutes.

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  • [–] 3 points 5 months ago (2 children)

    This project is only 500 MW here

    https://www.pv-magazine.de/2024/09/20/flexbase-plant-500-megawatt-redox-flow-speicher-in-der-schweiz/

    And other places say 800 MW

    Both of which are comparable to large hydro.

    Modern pumped hydro has a ramp up in the 10s of seconds range.

    Anyway. Same ballpark in terms of power.

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  • [–] 46 points 5 months ago (12 children)

    The article doesn't explain the battery, making it a bullshit site if you ask me, here is what they are talking about:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vanadium_redox_battery

    'The vanadium redox battery (VRB), also known as the vanadium flow battery (VFB) or vanadium redox flow battery (VRFB), is a type of rechargeable flow battery which employs vanadium ions as charge carriers.[5] The battery uses vanadium's ability to exist in a solution in four different oxidation states to make a battery with a single electroactive element instead of two.[6]

    For several reasons, including their relative bulkiness, vanadium batteries are typically used for grid energy storage, i.e., attached to power plants/electrical grids.[7] '

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  • [–] 9 points 5 months ago (10 children)

    I don't think I understand any better what the battery is then I did before. As per usual Wikipedia sucks at explaining concepts that you don't actually already understand.

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  • [–] 16 points 5 months ago* (5 children)

    Here's the short version.

    A normal battery is a sealed cell. It has a positive and negative electrode, with an electrolyte between them. Usually many layers of this. When you charge it, a chemical change happens. When you discharge it, that chemical change is undone.

    A redox flow battery uses fixed electrodes, but a liquid electrolyte that can be pumped and stored. This means you can increase overall storage capacity simply by adding more electrolyte tanks, without needing more electrodes. Think of it like a generator with a bigger gas tank.

    The whole vanadium thing is just one of the metals used in the battery. There's a few kind of redox flow batteries using different chemistries

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  • [–] 3 points 5 months ago* (1 child)

    Fry: I get it! So if the simplified bucket explanation gets full, you just add more buckets!

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  • [–] 4 points 5 months ago

    Yes exactly. If you need more total capacity you add more tanks, if you need more instantaneous output power you add more electrodes. And thus you can scale either one without messing with the other.

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  • [–] 5 points 5 months ago

    Also there are hundreds of chemical combinations that produce electricity that we know about, and only a handful have been worked on for batteries. As reported in Harper's Magazine many years back, that is not indexed to enshitified search engines, because fuck you (us, google, et al talking.)

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  • [–] 9 points 5 months ago (3 children)

    Yeah wikipedia is hit or miss, especially as technical people like to show off their fancy words and explain things in ways only technical people understand.

    But it's Vanadium, and you can look that up elsewhere. The first large industrial vanadium battery (if I recall,) was some years back, I think in WA State.

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  • [–] 5 points 5 months ago (1 child)

    If I really want to feel stupid, I go to the Wikipedia article for some simple maths concept I thought I understood

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  • [–] 1 point 5 months ago

    Yeah I think people who enjoy math and formulas and proofs also enjoy writing Wikipedia articles in the same way. I usually go to the Simple English Wikipedia for any math topics. And I got as far as calc 2 in college, so I'm no ignoramus.

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  • [–] 65 points 5 months ago (1 child)

    Goddammit, they are 0.01 Gigawatt short of time travel. 😋

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  • [–] 21 points 5 months ago (1 child)

    Wow, that's almost 10% of a single datacenter

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  • [–] 20 points 5 months ago
    [–] 82 points 5 months ago* (12 children)

    Fuck these incompetent headline writers who cant use units correctly. At this point they are doing this shit on purpose to ragebait people into reading the article. And they dont even explain what that headline is supposed to mean in the article. Does the output power ramp up that fast or do they mean that it can actually just output a lot of energy really fast?

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  • [–] 66 points 5 months ago* (7 children)

    I am also fascinated by the measurement “two soccer fields.” Americans largely play soccer on American football fields, so any American would just say “two football fields.” But everyone else hates calling it “soccer” and prefer to use metric rather than comparisons? This just seems like they chose all their measurements to be maximally irritating.

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  • [–] 22 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago) (1 child)

    Calling it two football field would still work. Americans would think brown oblong ball field, everyone else would think black and white orb game. In in all cases they'd be thinking of essentially the same measurement.

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  • [–] 3 points 5 months ago (3 children)

    Aren't soccer fields like 20% larger usually?

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  • [–] 3 points 5 months ago*

    Yeah. A lot of USLW games are played in gridiron stadiums, and the touchline is way further out than the sideline. They’re not required to be strictly uniform like gridiron, though, it’s more like a baseball diamond in that regard, so I’m not sure if they’re strictly wider, or just usually wider.

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  • [–] 27 points 5 months ago (2 children)

    My interpretation is that it can go from no output up to 1.2GW in milliseconds. Do most big batteries take more time to ramp up to high output?

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  • [–] 10 points 5 months ago

    Actually, the headline isn't wrong, you just read it wrong.

    The article specifies:

    • 2.1 GWh total storage capacity
    • 1.2 GW peak output
    • can ramp up to that peak output within milliseconds

    Every power source has a ramp up time. Ramping up e.g. a nuclear reactor can take hours, so if demand fluctuates it takes long for it to spin up.

    This one here can ramp up almost instantly to cover for fluctuations in the network, especially those caused by the unpredictable nature of renewable power generators.

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  • [–] 46 points 5 months ago* (10 children)

    1.21 Jiggowatts?! Is there a GIF?

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  • [–] 24 points 5 months ago (6 children)
  • [–] 10 points 5 months ago (4 children)

    You pronounce the G the same way as in gigawatt.

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  • [–] 20 points 5 months ago* (8 children)

    We don't know soccer fields around these parts...

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  • [–] 12 points 5 months ago (7 children)

    Anything but the Imperial System huh?

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  • [–] 8 points 5 months ago (6 children)

    It's 1,435 US rods square, or 1,333.6 imperial rods, simple.

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  • [–] 2 points 5 months ago (4 children)
  • [–] 2 points 5 months ago (3 children)

    US Leghorns or British broilers? Just multiply by 3.21 and add 27. Simple.

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  • [–] 10 points 5 months ago

    They just had the first stone laying ceremony so that explains the new wave of publications on the project.

    They are using a Vanadium flow battery by the company Invinity Energy Systems which is British-Canadian.

    I'm a little unsure whether it's a good idea to combine this with a datacenter, I hope the datacenter bubble popping won't jeopardize the whole project.

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  • [–] 8 points 5 months ago

    The Swiss are on the frontline of climate change seeing that it is destroying their mountains which in turn are destroying their villages. Sad times.

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  • [–] 13 points 5 months ago (1 child)
    [–] 12 points 5 months ago* (3 children)

    able to output 1.2 GW within milliseconds

    By exploding?

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  • [–] 2 points 5 months ago (1 child)

    Yeah, that's a bit too much a bit too fast, isn't it?

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  • [–] 2 points 5 months ago

    1.2GWh within milliseconds would be exploding.

    Read the headline again, it only talks about GW not GWh. That means it can output 1.2GWh per hour, but it can ramp up to 1.2GW within milliseconds. And it likely can only keep that output for a very short time, which is exactly what you need to balance the fluctuations of renewable energy production.

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  • [–] 3 points 5 months ago (3 children)

    What is a size of a soccer field

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  • [–] 3 points 5 months ago (1 child)

    Yeah, no, it's not going to output 1.2 gW in milliseconds.

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  • [–] 7 points 5 months ago

    The headline is most likely a misunderstanding, but "Output X Watt in Y time" isn't all that wrong, since it would be talking about how quickly the power supply can respond to demand.

    Every power supply has a ramp-up time, and the way the headline is worded hints to a very short ramp-up time, which would be very helpful for network stabilization.

    But yeah, it's likely the headline writer just misunderstood something.

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  • [–] 6 points 5 months ago (2 children)

    Asked for comments, they kept saying "Rest assured there is no death ray plans"

    (/j)

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  • [–] 0 points 5 months ago

    Don’t stick your thing in it!!

    Remember Wally? Ooof. I mean, kind of a jerk and all but. What a way to go.

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  • [–] -3 points 5 months ago (6 children)

    $1 per WH or almost that is pretty terrible. You can get battery systems for 1/4 of that $/WH at Home Depot.

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  • [–] 16 points 5 months ago (3 children)

    And how much would you have to pay people to take those thousands of Home Depot systems, string them all together, build a facility to hold all this, then hook it to the grid?

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