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[–] 143 points 6 months ago (16 children)

My mom taught high school English for decades and she used to tell her students that JK Rowling is a great storyteller, but a terrible author. She dreamed up a really cool world that really resonated with people, but her execution in that world is awful. The biggest place you see this is to lift the curtain on anything, and it crumbles instantly. Time Turners? Unnecessary plot device with massive implications. American wand? Kills Voldemort immediately. Sex ed at Hogwarts? No sex, only snog?

JK Rowling hasn't helped herself with this either, by continuously editorializing. Hermione was always black. Dumbledore is gay for wizard Hitler. Wizards didn't need bathrooms and would just magic away their shit, except wizard bathrooms are a central plot point for the second book. When she was starting out, she didn't have the money for a real editor. When she made it big, it was by the strength of her own bootstraps, so she didn't need one. It shows. She shat gold once, and in her eyes, it's now gold every time.

Avada Kedavra is dumb. Wizard duels essentially have to follow the be first, best, or cheat rule. The definite death spell makes being best pointless and cheating too slow. You have to go nuclear first and fastest. Also, the defining characteristic is the green flash and no marks on the dead body. In the world of Harry Potter, if nobody sees the flash, and nobody finds the murder wand, every heart attach and brain aneurysm is indistinguishable from the universes ultimate crime.

But, I think things like this are a reason why people love Harry Potter. It's why I did. When you're presented with a world so incredible with an execution that's lukewarm at best, it allows your imagination to take over. I love reading cheap, bad, free-on-Kindle sci-fi and fantasy, because oftentimes the central idea can be really unique, cool, and interesting. The execution can be awful, or sometimes not, but the core idea is usually a diamond. I get to be an archeologist, uncover it, and re-imagine it as I see fit. That's why so many Harry Potter fans get defensive. It resonated so strongly because people had to invest their own imaginations so deeply to make sense of a story that fundamentally doesn't hold up to scrutiny.

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  • [–] 24 points 6 months ago (1 child)

    I love that it's finally culturally acceptable to say "Actually no, the books weren't better. They sucked" lol

    What Alfonso Cuarón managed to achieve with Prisoner of Azkaban on screen however still gives me goosebumps... plotholes be damned lol

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  • [–] 7 points 6 months ago

    There's a scene where lightning flashes and reveals (I think) Gary Oldman's profile in the shadows of the clouds, and it was awesome.

    The rest of the movie was confusing and boring as hell but the visuals were pretty good.

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  • [+] 4 points 6 months ago (4 children)
  • [–] 9 points 6 months ago (3 children)

    she tweeted the wizard shitter comment. She explained it that the bathrooms were a later addition to hogwarts after too many muggle born wizards were shocked at the lack of them. the ability to swiftly and cleanly vanish your shit from whatever corner of the castle you decided to drop it was meant to be some amazing revelation to her fans i guess. No thought went into what it meant for wizard kids up to 13 years old needing to have a parent or elder sibling clean up their turds for them since they weren't allowed to perform magic.

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  • [–] 9 points 6 months ago

    Did she forget that the only entrance to the Chamber of Secrets was in a girl's bathroom? The secret chamber built by one of the founding members during the initial construction has its only entrance in a room that was a later addition. Not even internally consistent with her own story.

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  • [–] 3 points 6 months ago*

    I catch your drift. I always thought that wizarding duels and the death curse itself could've been far more interesting and exciting if, once successfully cast on someone, the curse will go on to kill the person…eventually. Like, you cast the spell, green flash or whatever, doesn't matter. Then, soon afterwards but not immediately, something atrocious or unlucky would happen, health wise or not, that would kill the person. Which means the victim knows they were cursed, but they can still fight back, making it not a duel ending spell, but a mutually assured annihilation kind of nuclear option. So, wizards would have to strategically choose if and when to use it.

    The toll on the body and mind of the curse user should have also been way steeper. Like, each curse should've made the user lose a finger, rot the skin, drive them to insanity, sink them into a manic or depressive crisis, lose eyes, go bald, etc. Reflecting the corresponding corruption of the soul. So that using the curse would have to be carefully considered by everyone, even the antagonists. Voldemort used the curse thousands of times and all he had to give in return was melatonin, keratine and cartilage.

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  • [–] 12 points 6 months ago (3 children)

    Not only that, but Rowling didn’t even dream up the world by all accounts. Just a bunch of plagiarized shit and racist stereotypes that happened to be the one which got extra popular.

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  • [–] 40 points 6 months ago (2 children)

    I tend to stay away from the plagiarism argument, just because you can make a strong case that real human originality is exceptionally rare and most art is minimal transformation of a wide array of source material. Everything from the Illiad to Star Wars is derivative.

    That said, her treatment of minotiries in Harry Potter is straight plagiarism of Confederate and Nazi ideology on slaves and untermensch. It surprised me that people were shocked at her "some people can't be women" stance when she continuously played the "some people aren't people" angle for laughs.

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  • [–] 2 points 6 months ago

    There is that, but her plagiarism was kinda close to Vanilla Ice saying that he didn’t sample Under Pressure. A little aggressive, especially for her inflated ego and billions of dollars.

    Absolutely agree about the other part though. She didn’t need the money to make her a shitty person, that was all original.

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  • [–] 0 points 6 months ago (1 child)

    When she was starting out, she didn’t have the money for a real editor. When she made it big, it was by the strength of her own bootstraps, so she didn’t need one.

    I got the strong impression that by around Book 4, she'd more or less offloaded the writing to ghost writers. The length of the material combined with a real drift in writing style to the formulaic made the latter books worse and worse with each release.

    By book 7, it felt like they were cramming a whole second story inside the first, for no reason other than to up the page count.

    When you’re presented with a world so incredible with an execution that’s lukewarm at best, it allows your imagination to take over.

    The whole early '00s Young Adult novel explosion was full of variations on Wizard High School. Lots of them were bad. Plenty of them were still beloved, for some seed of an idea or particularly compelling character that drove the next iteration of authors and screenwriters.

    I like to think The Magicians is a good example of a second-order HP book (that I honestly didn't love, but appreciated more after I got hooked on the TV show) playing with the root ideas and extending them in fun directions.

    That’s why so many Harry Potter fans get defensive.

    It's just tiresome to see people call you a TERF because you enjoy a kid's book.

    A bit like screaming at someone wearing a Mickey Mouse shirt for being a fascist, because Walt Disney... was a fascist.

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  • [–] 3 points 6 months ago* (last edited 6 months ago)

    People take issue with giving more money to a person who has spent a good amount of her considerable wealth openly and maliciously harming trans people.

    You're not a TERF for being a HP fan, but you are directly funding TERFs if you buy HP merch or legally watch her stuff.

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  • [–] 39 points 6 months ago* (last edited 6 months ago) (4 children)

    It was more like HP using expelliarmus a billion times

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  • [–] 9 points 6 months ago (2 children)

    Except for the one time he learned the Sectumsempra curse, used it one time on Draco Malfoy, and then we never talked about it again.

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  • [–] 57 points 6 months ago* (last edited 6 months ago) (13 children)

    Not using Avada Kadavra in a wizard duel in which you intend to kill the other is like having a duel with guns with infinite ammunition and attempting to bludgeon the enemy with the stock or stab them with a bayonet instead without ever taking a shot.

    There is a reason that every real fight Harry was in was just Avada Kadavra vs Expelliarmus. If you can just kill with an unbeatable curse and are willing to, you just kill. If you aren't willing to kill, your best recourse is removing their weapon before they kill you. It may be boring, but literally any other moves in a typical duel would be the sub-optimal at minimum, suicidal at worst.

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  • [–] 52 points 6 months ago* (10 children)

    Which is why it's bad writing.

    "Unblockable killing spell" is the kind of thing that pops up on a middle school playground because every kid wants to have the trump card in make-believe and the last kid just cast Meteor.

    Eragon is a contemporary-ish book and has killing magic that can kill normies by the dozens/hundreds, but other magic users have to do more than play rock-paper-nuclear-option.

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  • [–] 16 points 6 months ago (1 child)

    Yeah, it's a common problem with soft magic systems in general. Eragon's harder magic system at least defined clear(ish) boundaries, even if those boundaries were kind of a retcon after the ending battle of the first book. I definitely enjoyed the mechanics of the harder system better.

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  • [–] 13 points 6 months ago* (last edited 6 months ago)

    Might be a time to plug my own writing.

    Possessing a gem and training with it for a decade lets you use intense elemental magic of a certain attunement. BUT…those gems are so rare and take such vast resources of an empire to formulate, that their use is controlled to just three people. Anyone else who steals one won’t even be able to use it until they’ve practiced for an extraordinary amount of time. So, they’re like nukes; and no one can just nip in and steal them.

    The story is about using non-magical means to solve societal problems.

    EDIT: Actually, since this has 7 upvotes, maybe it’s time to plug it more directly.

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  • [–] 18 points 6 months ago (4 children)

    I like to subscribe to the "magic makes it's users imbeciles" fan theory. (Though the truth is that JK just isn't all that bright).

    It isn't that the killing spell is unblockable. Harry and his mom managed to block it twice. But apparently magicians in HP universe are just completely dumb and unwilling or incapable of innovation. That was spelled out clearly in book 1 where an elementary logic puzzle was seen a good way to protect the greatest treasure on earth.

    Ron's dad, for example, lived in England. He could wander the muggle streets freely if he wanted to. He had a deep fascination of basic muggle items, yet he didn't just go to his local library to check out a book or log on to the internet to learn about things that were his passion.

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  • [–] 17 points 6 months ago (1 child)

    A good writer could do cool stuff with that. It doesn't even have to be laziness, but the lack of necessity for innovation.

    A fun example is Project Hail Mary. The alien species in it is highly intelligent and has invented space travel, but has no computer technology. It's not that they lack the capacity and ingenuity required to develop computers, but because the structure of their brains that developed for extremely advanced audio processing in an environment without light made them extremely good at mathematics. They never had a need to invent calculators, so they never progressed down the technological path that would eventually lead to computers.

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  • [–] 8 points 6 months ago

    The wizards in HP are a weird mixture of so reliant on magic that simple logic and basic low tech solutions to problems are mystifying, but also, they forget to use magic, like, all the time. They are always doing things like getting rained on when the impervious charm exists, forgetting that the accio charm exists when they need to grab something before someone else finds it, when they bind someone in shackles instead of magically stunning or binding them, when their clothes don't fit, when they don't just duplicate items that dont break Gamps laws, when they make Filch and Hagrid do so much manual labor that could be accomplished with swipe of a wand, etc.

    Notably, they absolutely botch the "rescue" mission at the end of Order of the Pheonix and get Sirius killed in trying to save him becuase they fail to utilize the many magical means they have to communicate and travel.

    First, they forget that Harry was given a magic mirror to contact Sirius at any time for moments just like this. But let's chock that up to human error, fine.

    But then they also forget that they have a contact in the castle that can also visit the Black house, the painting of Phineas Nigellus. Even if they aren't sure they can get to the headmaster's office (even though he definitely could as he does later in the book), they know that the painting's inhabitants can travel between frames and could go to retieve him. But, ok, chock that up to human error number 2.

    Instead they decide to break into Umbridge's office to use her fireplace to speak to Sirius through the floo network. Cool. But then instead of just walking through and going look for him, Harry just sticks his head in and starts yelling which allows Kreacher to control the narrative and trick Harry into Voldemort's plot. And of course he gets caught by Umbridge because his ass is still in her office (and Hermione gets caught too because she inexplicably rmeoved the invisibility cloak).

    But then, even later when they get rid of Umbridge and her slytherin minions, and they are trying to figure out how to get to London, nobody realizes that Harry's head was just fucking in London. The fireplace is completely unguarded now and they know you can floo in directly to the ministry. Alternatively, they could just get to Hogsmeade and hail the Knight Bus, or find a sympathetic adult who can do side along apparation to get them there immediately. Or go back to the castle and get Snape's help getting there or to the Order.

    Instead they ride the Thestrals which takes "several hours" to reach London by which time they should totally have expected Sirius to already be dead. They don't bring the cloak to the ministry either even though they are under the impression that they will have to break in too. All of this is just dumb dumb dumb.

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  • [–] 5 points 6 months ago

    The fanfic Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality is a fun foil to this aspect of the series. It absolutely is a bit pretentious and preachy at points, but the genuine exploration of what is possible in the established system was pretty fun imo.

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  • [–] 1 point 6 months ago (1 child)

    Isn't the narrative that wizards act under a codex, not to use deadly spells? I mean, it's still lazy, but that would be my interpretation. I haven't read the books in quite a while though.

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  • [–] 1 point 6 months ago*

    Yes, IIRC the "Unforgivable Curses" either carry a death penalty or wizard prison forever or something. But by the third or forth book every bad guy is a Wizard Nazi who doesn't care about those consequences and the good guys are all fighting Wizard Nazis and are at least semi-justified in trying to kill them right back.

    It basically devolves instantly into gun-fights, except instead of guns it's a specific spell.

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  • [–] 10 points 6 months ago

    Not using Avada Kadavra in a wizard duel in which you intend to kill the other is like having a duel with guns with infinite ammunition and attempting to bludgeon the enemy with the hilt or stab them with a bayonet instead without ever taking a shot.

    So, they do kinda explore this in the books. Book 4, when the kids learn the Killing Curses in Defense Against the Dark Arts, its implied that you really need to want to kill someone for the spell to work. Otherwise, it just kinda gives your victim a nose bleed.

    There's a secondary implication that Avada Kadavra is not just a simple killing curse, but a predicate for creating a Hoarcrux. In Book 6, Tom Riddle learns that you need to kill someone in order to create a Hoarcrux. And, as Harry Potter is a Hoarcrux created by accident when his mother shields him from Voldemort's killing spell, there's a presumed through-line that using the spell severs your own soul with every successful incantation.

    So, the need to be fairly powerful, competent, and ruthless makes it more like going into a wizard duel with a blunderbuss than a Beretta. There are other spells that can kill (or immobilize in anticipation of a more traditional murder) with less effort. And - assuming the implications - no risk of shredding yourself internally to land a lethal blow.

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  • [–] 105 points 6 months ago* (last edited 6 months ago) (33 children)

    Same sort of problem with Quidditch. Whichever team gets the golden snitch automatically wins, so the whole game would realistically just be everyone trying to get it and ignoring everything else. JK is very bad at designing world rules. Maybe that's why she's so bad at comprehending reality as well.

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  • [–] 25 points 6 months ago (8 children)

    I hate myself for remembering, and am likely wrong, but isn't the snitch worth 150 points and ends the game? So if the opposing team was 151 points ahead catching the snitch would lose the match? I'm not going to look it up, I don't care enough about being right in regards to Harry Potter and I'm not even sure why I commented outside of my inate need for information to be correct...

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  • [–] 15 points 6 months ago (7 children)

    That's correct - however, 150 points is a ridiculously high number that's almost impossible to overcome. Every time the snitch was caught, that team won the game.

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  • [–] 5 points 6 months ago (3 children)

    It's fifteen goals. While unlikely, it's totally possible for a team to score fifteen goals more if the skill difference is high enough and the game is allowed to go for long enough.

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  • [–] 2 points 6 months ago

    There were some historic matches mentioned in one of the books, that apparently went on for weeks or even months, fifteen goals would be a really low number for that kind of match. The duration of a match only depends on how good the seekers are, a match can be over in five minutes which is really lame, or go on for ages which is also lame.

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  • [–] 3 points 6 months ago*

    You’re definitely right about it being a poorly-contrived scoring system, but there are a few games in the books where the team lost the game but grabbed the snitch. It’s always described as a “stem the bleeding” type decision

    Edit: sorry, now seeing the replies to your other comments saying this, I guess you know by now 😅

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  • [–] 3 points 6 months ago (1 child)

    They won the game, but they may have lost the league if winning comes down to point differences.

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  • [–] 6 points 6 months ago

    This was a thing in the third book where Harry had to make sure they're a certain number of points ahead before catching the snitch so that they'd not just win the match but also their school league.

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  • [–] 14 points 6 months ago* (10 children)

    JK is very bad at designing world rules.

    I mean, magic is inherently kinda jenky as a core concept. "The Magicians" series does a much better job of painting a magical boarding school and gets a bit meta-textual on the question of what the edges and limits of a magical world are expected to be.

    I'll happily spot you that Welters is a better wizard game than Quidditch. But it's also more like Chess than Wizard Hockey, so it loses the narrative excitement in exchange for a more plodding and introspective exchange.

    Shave down the Snitch aspect to, like, 20 points instead of 150 or whatever dumbshit Rowling originally ran with and it can create a few interesting edge cases for not catching the Snitch until the proper moment that can make the game more fun. Other than that hang up, its a very visually stunning and theme appropriate game for a bunch of kids on flying brooms to play.

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  • [–] 6 points 6 months ago (2 children)

    I always found the whole snitch thing so stupid simply from a game rules perspective. Like most team sports have you work as a team to score points. Everyone participates and are more or less responsible for the outcome of the game. In quidditch you have that and then you have one team member that is just more special than everyone else, they can just control the outcome of the game by themselves. It goes against the whole concept of team sports.

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  • [–] 2 points 6 months ago

    Like most team sports have you work as a team to score points. Everyone participates and are more or less responsible for the outcome of the game.

    A better writing of the game would have had other players working as a team to spot the Snitch. Or alternative strategies for leveraging the extra player in the early game, when finding the Snitch was unlikely. Or even just a history of the sport, or variations of amateur and professional rules, or a pro-league that got more than a casual mention for the first chapter of the fourth book and then never again.

    you have that and then you have one team member that is just more special than everyone else

    You could argue the pitcher in baseball or the QB in football fill a similar role.

    But yes, the need to make Harry a Mary Sue at every opportunity definitely dragged on the series. The better parts of the series were when he wasn't the center of attention and was more just an observer of a magical world.

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  • [–] 4 points 6 months ago

    Not necessarily. HP is just written with a soft magic system.
    I quite like the Light Lightbringer series, which has a hard magic system.

    It's so much more fun for me to read about creative ways of magic to be used when it's based on physics of the world it's in, when I could theorise about what's possible and be amazed by the characters' ingenuity.

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  • [–] 3 points 6 months ago* (last edited 6 months ago)

    I love the Magicians. Just finished a rewatch not too long ago. Their approach to magic is definitely much more entertaining than the HP universe. Especially the hilarious concept of "sphincter magic" that Penny tries to learn when his hands get messed up. That show did a great job with the meta humor.

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  • [–] 2 points 6 months ago (3 children)

    My head canon is always converting magic into sci fi. The wizards are the descendants of a civilization that created the tech but they’re so far removed they don’t know anything about how it works, or about simple spells that would shortcut all the fancy shit. Doesn’t really explain the Snitch though, other than “they’re more about tradition than logic”.

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  • [–] 2 points 6 months ago (1 child)

    Same concept but kinda from the opposite direction, kinda like elder scrolls. Magic used to be super powerful and utterly broken but over time it's degraded for one reason or another some things and groups still have access to the old magic but as a whole it's pretty inaccessible. This is kinda how magic works in Elder Scrolls, the magic of the Dawn Era and Merithic Era were fucken broken world bending shit that did things like turning Solstheim into an island instead of a peninsula, but the world has since gained too much internal stability or perhaps instability to allow such things all that often, but scratching into that requires getting into Elder Scrolls meta physics which just no.

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  • [–] 2 points 6 months ago

    My head canon is always converting magic into sci fi.

    Arthur C. Clarke will be by to collect royalties.

    Doesn’t really explain the Snitch though, other than “they’re more about tradition than logic”.

    Lots of sports spring out of a bunch of silly children's games that get increasingly bureaucratic to sell tickets.

    Why not end the game with a timer or at a certain score count? Why introduce a fairy trapped in a golden ball who has some kind of personality, rather than just being a buzzing semi-invisible toy? Why not yadda yadda?

    Rowling definitely left a lot on the table.

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  • [–] 12 points 6 months ago (2 children)

    I know there's been a fair bit of discussion and I only skimmed it, but the main issue I could see is if one team actually ignored everything for the snitch, it's feasible the other team could get 15 goals literally for free before you actually succeed. But the video game nerfing the snitch tells you everything you need to know about whether it can be balanced at all.

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  • [–] 1 point 6 months ago (1 child)

    I'm not sure about the video game rules but the game state when a team is up by 150+ doesn't make sense either. Because the team down by 150 would be disincentivized to catch the snitch despite that being a main objective, as it would immediately end the game with them losing. The matches need to be on a timer for the rules to make any sense, but I guess that would have been less interesting to write 🤷‍♂️

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  • [–] 2 points 6 months ago

    Sure, but I'm one of the very few people in this thread that didn't go in that direction so I'm not really sure why you're directing that point at me.

    Though I guess the main point would be that if the game can only end after someone catches the snitch, you'd still rather it be you than the other team.

    In many sports, how much you lose by matters for certain things like rankings and such. Like say the other team has 160+ more points than you. Clearly your team is catastrophically terrible at the game to have ended up in that position. You're probably not catching up.

    Even if you have faith they could make 2 goals, there's no real way to time catching the snitch at exactly the right moment, nor to make sure the other seeker doesn't get it in that time.

    So in general it's probably better to put your team out of its misery and lose by 10 points rather than by over 300 points.

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  • [+] 17 points 6 months ago (2 children)
  • [–] 2 points 6 months ago*

    They won the bet, got the money... And the money was fake gold. (Leprechaun gold). It disappeared. So they were out the money. Not sure if gambling was legal or not, so I don't think trying to report someone as stealing your gambling wins was feasible.

    Anyways, yeah the only professional game in the books we saw was the exact scenario that people are complaining here would never happen. As in he caught the snitch to save themselves from complete embarrassment. A score of 370-10 or some shit looks a lot worse than just losing by a few points and putting off the inevitable

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  • [–] 6 points 6 months ago (1 child)

    So the reasoning I heard about this is she did this to annoy her boyfriend who loved sports.

    She deliberately made it an unbalanced rule because she knew it would really annoy him.

    At the time, I doubt she knew the book would become a cultural icon, nor that most of the English-speaking world would know what the word "Quidditch" meant.

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  • [–] 6 points 6 months ago* (3 children)

    In The Goblet of Fire, Ireland beat Bulgaria despite Bulgaria getting the snitch. The problem with the snitch isn't that the team that gets it automatically wins but that this particular match didn't make sense because Bulgaria knew that getting the snitch would cause them to lose, so they would have instead focused on preventing Ireland from getting the snitch while they tried to get within 150 points.

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  • [–] 8 points 6 months ago (2 children)

    Yeah, another comment pointed that out. And as you pointed out, it's a stupid rule regardless!

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  • [–] 2 points 6 months ago* (1 child)

    I think a reasonable game could be played with those rules, given how quickly goals are scored and how hard it is supposed to be to catch the snitch. It's just that it didn't make sense at all that Krum was celebrated. Catching the snitch was worse than scoring an own goal in soccer because it directly and immediately caused his team to lose the match. The rioting of the death eaters after the match is understandable, but the way everyone else behaved towards this obvious fraud is not. The Ministry should have started a match fixing investigation.

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