Yeah. Marx called it formal vs. real freedom. All the people are free to sleep under the bridges or at a five star penthouse. But some are forced to sleep under the bridge and only a few have means to exercise the freedom to enter the penthouse.

Wage slavery. The US is one of the worst offenders. By binding your healthcare to your employer and having next to no worker protection laws, the loss of your job might cause homelessness or death. Is that really a choice? Work or die? And with stagnating wages who has the financial security and time to fight for their rights?

This is of course by design.

Slavery evolved and took on new names, but never disappeared.

How much do you have saved up, that you're willing to tap into so that you can live for yourself and others, and not a paycheck? How long could you just exist before the debt becomes crushing? That's the length of your leash.

Retired people who live comfortably are basically 'off leash' but still confined to the yard. Some people have a 1-2 week 'leash'. Some may have saved up enough to have a 6-12 month 'leash The rest are the 'i could stop working whenever I want, but refuse to' or 'man I'm so fucking far in debt that I'll never be able to stop fucking working'

Most people will never be able to stop working because I'm a slave based economy, a slave must earn it's food every day, and it's bed every night.

Welcome to the resistance, comrade

“It is difficult for me to imagine what ‘personal liberty’ is enjoyed by an unemployed person, who goes about hungry, and cannot find employment. Real liberty can exist only where exploitation has been abolished, where there is no oppression of some by others, where there is no unemployment and poverty, where a man is not haunted by the fear of being tomorrow deprived of work, of home and of bread.”

Unironically what natives of the Great Lakes region have been saying about the "civilized" western way of life for centuries.

Yup. I remember a friend and I discussing various forms of freedoms: Freedom of speech, religion, privacy, etc. We tried to rank them by importance, and while I cannot remember our conclusions, I remember "Economic freedom" to be among the most important ones.

A person should have disposable income and freedom to spent it how they want.

Asterix did a great bit on that. Slaves are freed and put to work for money, but suddenly they owe for food, housing, clothing, infrastructure etc. and are just as much slaves as before. In fact, they go back to being slaves because then they don't have to worry anymore.

I would say more to the point if everything in life needs to make a profit then freedom isn't free

It's like having health insurance but you can't afford the copays. Then you don't really have health insurance do you ?

Slavery is not being denied the ability to earn wages.

Slavery is being denied the ability to save.

The USA you're free to do whatever you like as long as it's these few specific things we believe are economically beneficial to the leaders but not you.

The economy is designed to keep you locked into working for the rest of your life under stress. Freedom is only given to capitalists because that's how the system is designed.

It is difficult for me to imagine what "personal liberty" is enjoyed by an unemployed person, who goes about hungry, and cannot find employment.

Real liberty can exist only where exploitation has been abolished, where there is no oppression of some by others, where there is no unemployment and poverty, where a man is not haunted by the fear of being tomorrow deprived of work, of home and of bread. Only in such a society is real, and not paper, personal and every other liberty possible.

• Some guy

Freedom to toil, freedom to starve, freedom to suffer without medicine or medical care. Freedom to freeze on the cold and bake in the sun.

Everyone here should remember the story of Damocles. One of the things I enjoy about being poor is that I have nothing for people to steal. I don't worry about muggings, carjackings, home invasions, kidnapping. When you have money, a line starts to form to take it from you.

This is freedom under capitalism

Yes, and this is why old school liberals (i.e. supporters of liberty for all) support social programs. Supporting those that can't comfortably support themselves brings freedom from exploitation.

Maybe freedom as in financial freedom? I feel trapped cause of trauma and stuff but there's layers.

Yep, for more information on that read Debt: the First 5000 Years, it goes pretty deep into it from both anthropological and political perspectives

It is with this premise that I began to formulate a concept of UBI, ranked income, and so forth. People simply can't do stuff if they don't have enough things to support a baseline existence. That baseline should be strong enough to offer education, health, freedom to wait for jobs that aren't abusive, the ability to travel, and so on. Agency is the core to an effective human, and our capitalistic society is designed to confer that agency upon a few.

its by design, politicians billionaire class intentionally instigated this way so people dont start pondering about politics, rising up against the aristocrats.

This is part of the idea of “freedom as development”, where development is the expansion of your capabilities! This was put into words by Amartya Sen over the last century. Check out human development!

It is tricky, yes.

If you happen to be able to participate in events that are free however, you have more options.

It is difficult for me to imagine what “personal liberty” is enjoyed by an unemployed person, who goes about hungry, and cannot find employment.

Real liberty can exist only where exploitation has been abolished, where there is no oppression of some by others, where there is no unemployment and poverty, where a man is not haunted by the fear of being tomorrow deprived of work, of home and of bread. Only in such a society is real, and not paper, personal and every other liberty possible.

– Joey S

Eh, yes and no.

People often don't really appreciate how much freedom they have until it's taken away.

But even with no money at all, I have a bike, and I can ride it as far as I care to in any direction I want (well, at least until I hit a border). And that is so much more freedom than I've had at other points in my life.

Freedom to stave.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Positive_liberty

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Bill_of_Rights

When capitalism ends and we all finally revolt, we will be truly free.

We lost our freedom when they took away the ability to put together a group of people/solo and go on an expedition/excursion because you had the resources and the want to. now we're slaves

Are we going to have yet another round of "everyone should be free to do whatever they want except set up groups with mutual interests"? People want some magical force in the universe, beyond human conventions, that prevents any person or group from gaining power over another.

Sounds a bit extreme. What about all the things you can do for free? Also, the world needs cheap things to keep everyone spending. I’m pretty sure there will always be at least something even the poor can afford.

Welcome to left libertarianism. Cheers, you can vape in the hot tub but please no glass.

That's basically the difference between positive and negative freedom. 

Negative freedom is the freedom from restrictions (like nobody prohibiting you from walking) while positive freedom is the ability for you to do something (like being able to walk) 

it's a different kind of freedom.

freedom exists in your mind. ask sartre. i am burdened, but i am radically free.