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[–] 141 points 7 months ago (14 children)

Meanwhile...

Uru is a metal ore from the first moon in existence, and has existed since the beginning of the universe, being said to be rubble from the rock of creation and the strongest substance in all the realms.

https://marvel.fandom.com/wiki/Uru

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  • [–] 124 points 7 months ago (6 children)

    and the strongest substance in all the realms.

    Until it isn't.

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  • [–] 82 points 7 months ago (4 children)

    Damn even the metallurgists have to watch out for power creep

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  • [–] 32 points 7 months ago (2 children)

    I mean, they've been having to do that since the chalcolithic.

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  • [–] 20 points 7 months ago

    Ah, thank you. I was looking for the expression "power creep" to describe this phenomenon. In Japan, we usually call it "power inflation," and I couldn't remember how to say it in English!

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  • [–] 22 points 7 months ago (1 child)

    So it's strongest than the actual rock of creation? Also funny that it was there since the beginning but it's in a moon. A moon that existed before the planet the moon is a moon of? That's not a moon lol.

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  • [–] 6 points 7 months ago (3 children)

    So, it's composed of hydrogen and helium?

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  • [–] 4 points 7 months ago (2 children)

    To be fair, a lot of elements existed before the first stars exploded, it was just overwhelmingly hydrogen and helium.

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  • [–] 1 point 7 months ago (1 child)

    I was talking about the beginning, so the big bang, which only produced hydrogen and helium. At least that is the common consensus. The first stars were creating more elements, as they can create everything up to iron. For everything else we need super Nova explosions, which obviously came much later, but that also explains only a part of the universes chemical evolution. The rest could be explained by binary neutron star mergers or exotic types of super novae, but that is still highly debated.

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  • [–] 1 point 7 months ago

    It honestly depends on how TECHNICAL you're trying to be.

    If you're being super well acktually - then zero elements were created by the big bang. It was way too hot and dense and it was only subatomic particles. Everything had to cool slightly, and stuff had to decay slightly, for any elements to be created at all.

    Then after that, the VAST MAJORITY of elements were hydrogen and helium, yes, but there was a very small amount of other elements (lithium being the biggest part of that small amount of other elements). The fact that it's a sliver of a percent doesn't matter, the universe is enormous and larger elements, while rare, actually did exist back then.

    This deuterium then fused to heavier nuclei, including tritium, helium-3, helium-4, and lithium-7.[2]:β€Š315β€Š Helium-4 has a large binding energy, which means that once a helium-4 nucleus is formed, it is difficult to break apart and incorporate its constituents into heavier nuclei. Therefore matter in the universe is primarily hydrogen and helium-4 after BBN.[13]:β€Š68β€Š Standard BBN predicts, by the time BBN ends, the universe is composed of about 75% of hydrogen and 25% helium-4 by mass. Roughly 1 nucleus in 100,000 is deuterium or helium-3, and 1 nucleus in 1,000,000,000 is lithium-7. Even smaller amounts of heavier elements, as heavy as oxygen-20, have been predicted to form.[10]
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Bang_nucleosynthesis

    So really - there's no reason why some crazy weird elements couldn't have also been created, it's just rare - which is the whole point of "crazy rare super metal - Uru - was created at the beginning of the universe"

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  • [–] 93 points 7 months ago (2 children)

    Hey, at least its better than the placeholder; Unobtainium.

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  • [–] 65 points 7 months ago (3 children)

    when I was reading comics admantium was stronger than vibranium but vibranium had this unique quality with resonance and was used in a lot of sonic type devices. caps shield was made from an alloy of both that much like the experiment that created him only worked once and they have never been able to repeat it. The shield was considered much stronger than admantium and the vibranium is what allowed for its ability to bounce around. It was considered indestructible.

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  • [–] 2 points 7 months ago (1 child)

    IIRC Cap's shield is actually proto-adamantium. They were never able to recreate the formula, and base adamantium is the closest they could get.

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  • [–] 3 points 7 months ago*

    yeah im not sure if that is before or after my time but 100% when I was reading it was considered and alloy with vibranium although maybe the admantium part was some admantium precursor given the timeline of when admantium came on the field but im sure it was considered an alloy of both.

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  • [–] 45 points 7 months ago

    Stan Lee after the meeting:

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  • [–] 39 points 7 months ago (3 children)

    Didn't vibranium come first? πŸ€”

    Either: DaredevilΒ #13 (Feb 1966) or Fantastic FourΒ #53 (Aug 1966) (depending on which vibranium we're talking about, yes, there were TWO of them...)

    vs.

    Avengers #66Β (July 1969) (Ultron's body)

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  • [–] 26 points 7 months ago (2 children)

    2 vibraniums? please do elaborate! I don't have the patience to read all the comics but I'm a sucker for this kind of lore details.

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  • [–] 39 points 7 months ago (1 child)

    So a metal called "vibranium" was first introduced in Daredevil as an 'anti-metal' that melted all other metals.

    The second vibranium, from Wakanda, is the one everyone knows about. I think they just recycled the name from Daredevil.

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  • [–] 46 points 7 months ago (32 children)

    Nothing beats Unobtanium.

    I swear, when I first heard that, I was out. I've despised every Avatar movie because of what is possibly the stupidest artistic choice in cinematic history.

    You spend a billion dollars on a film franchise, and best you can come up with is Unobtanium? Go away.

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  • [–] 31 points 7 months ago (13 children)

    I'm pretty sure they meant it as a meta joke. Unobtanium has been used to describe fantsy/sci-fi fictional plot relevant material for many years before either Avatar was made.

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  • [–] 7 points 7 months ago (12 children)

    Maybe, but that would be as dumb as calling it a MacGuffin, which is basically same thing in suspense thrillers.

    "Let's invade this planet and kill everybody for a MacGuffin!"

    It's not like he worked that hard at the story. The plot is literally Ferngully, and the name was already in use in another animated series. He was clearly more interested in creating a vehicle for his film tech, which he obviously cared more about than that clumsy story.

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  • [–] 12 points 7 months ago (10 children)

    I don't know, I mean, look at the naming that some tech companies use IRL. They use some pretty silly names. The idea of a company finding a metal that's sci-fi grade and calling it Unobtanium as a nod to their love of sci-fi isn't that crazy.

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  • [–] 5 points 7 months ago (1 child)

    I was about to say, we live in a world where Big Brother is about to be fully matured and is unironically named Palantir. I really don't know what else to say, like the point should be clear.

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  • [–] 5 points 7 months ago (5 children)

    In real life, poor imagination is acceptable. In a billion dollar movie, we expect better than real life.

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  • [–] 1 point 7 months ago (4 children)

    It was the imagination of a character in the movie that was bad, not the makers of the movie. I'm not trying to simp for James Cameron or something lol, that statement sounds like I am.

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  • [–] 0 points 7 months ago (3 children)

    I know you know this, but, there is no character with an imagination. Cameron made him up. He's not real. He didn't imagine anything.

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  • [–] 1 point 7 months ago (2 children)

    That's a really weird way to think about it. Yes, obviously they're all fictional, but you can of course make a character that has a vivid imagination or one that doesn't.

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  • [–] 0 points 7 months ago (1 child)

    No, it isn't. It's a normal way to think about it. Your way of thinking is how people fall in love with imaginary AI friends.

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  • [–] 3 points 7 months ago

    This seems like the same problem that we have with shuffling music, where a truly random shuffle doesn't feel random; if you make it less random, it ends up feeling more random. Similarly, making a movie less realistic can make it feel more realistic.

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  • [–] 3 points 7 months ago

    In real life it would have been named after it's discoverer or the planet on which it was found. Most sci-fi shows at least name their made up materials Nequadah, Trilithium, Spice, Red Matter, Really hot tea, etc

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  • [–] 11 points 7 months ago (4 children)

    Surprisingly, it's the most realistic part of the movie. If you know scientists, if they have a concept for a perfect thing that can't be found, and then they find it for real, they're calling it unobtanium for sure.

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  • [–] 3 points 7 months ago* (2 children)

    Even in its supposed actual use (and I'm not convinced), it's a TEMPORARY Placeholder Name, meant to be replaced by a real word. Keeping it in the final draft, and trying to wave it away with a terrible excuse, is poor writing, poor directing, poor production.

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  • [–] 2 points 7 months ago* (1 child)

    It is truly a dumb decision because it's got absolutely nothing to do with the film. It's just lazy justification for being there, they could have chosen anything.

    I think it's a room temperature superconductor which, ok I can see why that's useful, but if you're in a future where you have interstellar starships flying on a semi regular basis to another star system I think you've probably already invented room temperature superconductors. In fact they must have room temperature superconductors because their starships are powered by fusion drive which needs electromagnetic confinement in order to work. So at least the first ship would have to already have that tech just to get out there in the first place.

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  • [–] 14 points 7 months ago (8 children)

    Per the internet, so grain of salt and all, unobtanium predates Avatar by some time, typically used as a brainstorming device. You know how a physics problem might say "assume a frictionless environment" or something of that nature, in order to focus on a specific point or phenomena? Unobtanium is sort of like that. Picture a bunch of aerospace engineers in the mid-50s, talking about how they're gonna put a person in space. They're throwing all their spaghetti against the wall, hoping some of it will stick. One guy stands up and says, according to his calculations, if they can get the mass of the launch vehicle down to X, he's confident they can do the thing. Unfortunately, material science being what it is at the time, there is nothing that would be light, strong, cheap, and workable enough to fashion such a vehicle, but the math all checks out. These engineers jokingly start referring to the hypothetical material that would satisfy all their needs as "unobtanium", while they search for practical solutions.

    Fast forward 60 years, and Cameron is writing his Pocahontas in Space movie. He needs a name for his MacGuffin, but, being a MacGuffin, it's entirely irrelevant to the plot outside of the fact that the characters are destined to fight over it. So, he decides to call it unobtanium, since that's pre-existing shorthand for "rare material that does everything you need it to", and that's literally all this material needs to be for the plot.

    It's still silly, sure, but no more or less silly than mechs fighting giant blue people that fuck via ponytail sounding.

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  • [–] 13 points 7 months ago* (2 children)

    Yeah, but it's like if a movie was trying to be taken seriously, but literally called its macguffin the MacGuffin. It would take you out of it every dramatic scene because they're just using the plot device by the word for the kind of plot device it is.

    Unobtanium is a real world term for something partly defined by not really existing. You can make up a stupid but plausible name and people won't mind (Marsium, Pandorium, etc) or you can go with something wildly implausible like making up an alien word for it (bonus points if you then give it phonetic decay into english) and nobody cares or even thinks it's cool. But this snapped people out of it a bit because nobody would call a material they're actively mining unobtanium, worst case they'd give it nicknames.

    And it also just fell right into this spot where the setting felt carefully constructed though fantastical, but the plot felt like an afterthought, and here's a piece of the setting that clearly only exists for the plot and it's loudly announcing that fact with its really stupid name.

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  • [–] 5 points 7 months ago

    I listened to a steampunk opera years ago where the thing they were all fighting over was called an MCG. It took reading the writers notes afterwards for me to realise it was literally a MCGuffin, I did not feel smart that day.

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  • [–] 2 points 7 months ago

    I agree with you in all of the particulars of your argument, but am ultimately unphased by the use of the term. Cameron stopped one step short of calling it MacGuffinite, and I can understand why that would annoy some people. However, within the context of Avatar, it just doesn't bother me.

    If I wanted to conjure an in-universe reason for it, I can do so without straining my credulity too much. Aerospace engineers in the 50s develop a term for a hypothetical wonder material that they can't get their hands on: unobtanium. Fast forward hundreds of years, and a material is discovered on Pandora which possesses qualities which were previously only thought of as theoretically possible. Perhaps jokingly, perhaps sincerely, the new wonder material is called unobtanium, referencing the fact it is no longer hypothetical, but it's still damn hard to get a hold of.

    Now, I recognize that 1) none of that is explained in the movie, so it's just head canon, and 2) as you say, calling a material you are actively mining 'unobtanium' is stupid. However, I don't think it's any more or less stupid than your suggested alternative courses of action given the context of the plot.

    If unobtanium had ANY relevance to the story beyond "this is the source of conflict", I'd wish for more juice there. But Cameron is nothing if not a functional screenwriter. No matter how much lipstick you put on the pig, the sole purpose of the scene is to telegraph the third act conflict (and allegorize the Iraq War, to some extent, but he does more with that elsewhere). The screenplay spends only bare minimum amount of time covering that detail before speeding along to more relevant thematic matters.

    So, I agree that it's a dumb contrivance that is clunky. However, it's just so irrelevant that I don't care. Call it whatever you want to, the name, like the material itself, is completely inconsequential. Frankly, I'm actually warming to the idea of calling it MacGuffinite. Put a line in that it was named after the first marine to die on Pandora or some such bs. Have your cake and eat it too, a plausible in-universe name, and a tell to not think about it so much.

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  • [–] 1 point 7 months ago (4 children)

    I get that writers use placeholder names for all sorts of things, but as you said yourself, it's meant to be replaced later. That giant budget, and nobody could think of a better name than Unobtanium?

    It was either a terrible oversight, or it was chosen purposefully. Either one indicates an objectively poor artistic choice.

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  • [–] 1 point 7 months ago (3 children)

    Well, I'll start by disagreeing with the premise that an "objectively poor" artistic choice exists, at least in this context. There are choices that work for you and choices that don't, but neither are objective. The name unobtanium was chosen because it represents a hypothetical substance that is everything that Cameron needed it to be to tell his story in a single word. He's practically telling the audience, "look, guys, don't think about it that hard, I'm speeding through the set-up because I know everyone is here to look at pretty shit in 3d".

    In another story, one where the specific properties of unobtanium were in any way relevant (beyond being valuable), that sort of handwavey shorthand might perturb me. However, as it stands within the context of the film, it's fine. It's functional screenwriting, and that, to me, is a hallmark of Cameron's style.

    Also, I'm not suggesting unobtanium was a placeholder for Cameron. I'm saying that it doesn't necessarily strain my credulity to believe that, if scientists are pre-conditioned to refer to a hypothetical wonder material as unobtanium, and then they actually discover a wonder material, they might continue referring to it as such. Or, if not scientists, at least corporate ghouls like Ribisi who probably can't pronounce the "official" name, if one exists.

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  • [–] 1 point 7 months ago (2 children)

    Using shorthand because you're bored with your own exposition dump, and want to speed it along, seems like a strong sign of a poor screenplay.

    EVERYBODY knows it was a terrible name, even those offering weak-ass rationalizations. NONE of you sound like you've even convinced yourselves.

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  • [–] 1 point 7 months ago* (1 child)

    I'm not saying it's a brilliant name. Im arguing it is an inconsequential detail that does not matter in the context of the story, and it should be treated as such. You called it "possibly the stupidest artistic choice in cinematic history". I guess I just find that to be at least as ridiculous as "unobtanium", if not moreso.

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  • [–] 1 point 7 months ago

    It's not an inconsequential detail, it is literally the reason the movie is taking place, and they can't be bothered to question such a lame name.

    Obviously, Cameron declared this to be the final name, and nobody else was brave enough to say, "Hey, Boss, are you really married to that name? Because we could workshop it a bit, if you want."

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  • [–] 16 points 7 months ago (6 children)

    Shouldn't this be reversed? Vibranium was first, then Adamantium and it was stronger. But it's heavier and doesn't have the same properties.

    Uru is the strongest, but it's a rare cosmic material.

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  • [–] 14 points 7 months ago (2 children)

    Iirc, isn’t one made with the other? I genuinely don’t know which.

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  • [–] 46 points 7 months ago

    No, you're thinking of Captain America's shield (in the comics) which is made of an alloy of both adamantium and vibranium that they've never been able to replicate. AFAIK Adamantium is stronger but more brittle, whereas Vibranium has the extra wacky properties, like absorbing "all" incoming kinetic energy (except when it doesn't.)

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  • [–] 8 points 7 months ago (1 child)

    Adamantium is made with vibranium and steel.
    You also have Uru, which is an entirely different thing from a magical realm, kinda like Marvel's mithril.

    Their hardness, toughness, strength and magical conductivity are different, making Adamantium better for attacking, Vibranium better for defending, and Uru better for enchanting.

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  • [–] 7 points 7 months ago

    Marvel power scaling in a nutshellβ€”there’s always someone 20% stronger πŸ˜‚

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  • [–] 6 points 7 months ago

    This is why I've just never liked super hero universes.

    In isolation, it's passable, fun even, and I've enjoyed some marvel stuff.

    When they actually try to do world building, it's just so, so bad.

    This is my opinion, apologies to those who generally like the Marvel universe, but I just can't stand it. (Based on the handful of films I've seen or heard about).

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