I woke up today, to a public comment in a Lemmy community asking a series of tagged accounts why they had downvoted certain posts

I thought that reactions to posts and comments are anonymous and now I don't really know what to feel about Lemmy any more.

In this case I had downvoted a poster because of its design, but was confronted publicly for being racist because the person assumed that I downvoted the message on the poster

EDIT: changed the title from "How" to "Why" because it broke rule nr 5 about it being a support question

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[–] 78 points 9 months ago (7 children)

I just block anyone who confronts me about why I voted a certain way. "Because I felt like it, fuck off cunt" is my go-to justification.

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  • [–] 4 points 9 months ago (2 children)
  • [–] 14 points 9 months ago

    I crashed out once and DMd someone who had downvoted a couple of my comments because I overreacted and thought I was being targeted. I'm not a particularly stable individual.

    Felt terrible, they were a good sport about it though.

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    [–] 73 points 9 months ago (39 children)
  • [–] [S] 27 points 9 months ago (38 children)

    Thanks! That's is very helpful and also concerning

    Not sure how I feel about this

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  • [–] 51 points 9 months ago (31 children)

    Why is that concerning? The whole system was meant to be transparent

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  • [–] 48 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago) (19 children)

    Not the OP, but i find it concerning because this enables creating a very detailed profile of a users interests, political alignment, medical issues, sexual orientation etc. Even if they never post anything! We should all know by now that there are bad actors actively using this kind of data in the worst ways imaginable. In the US this can already have life threatening consequences (ICE raids etc...)

    This is not a good privacy oriented design and it exposes users in a dangerous way.

    EDIT: About lemvotes.org. I like this site because it makes it obvious how dangerous this really is. For example I accidentally upvoted a really disgusting NSFW post misclicking on my phone. This will forever be visible to the world. I'm a documented pervert now. Good job.

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  • [–] 8 points 9 months ago (9 children)

    Which is why you shouldn't put all your interests in one account.

    Have one account for memes and shitposts, then another for bringing down the patriarchy and kinky stuff. OK, so maybe 3 accounts

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  • [–] 2 points 9 months ago (5 children)
  • [–] 19 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago) (4 children)

    It's only ridiculous because you're used to pouring your entire life into Facebook or Google's servers.

    If you're disturbed by it being public, I think you should be just as disturbed by it being in the hands of data farmers and merchants.

    The fact of the matter is, nothing you do online is private—and on the spectrum of "how private is it," social media platforms are traditionally designed to put you at the near zero end of it. So separate your concerns if you want any illusion of separation from your actual life.

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  • [–] 2 points 9 months ago (1 child)

    You made assumptions about my social media use that are wrong. I don't interract with them because I don't like the way they are run and the data they gather will for sure be used against me. I interact with the fediverse because it doesn't start from a point of abuse, but it can very clearly be abused and I would honestly prefer that this particular information would not be available in any way since it is the most frictionless but also the most potentially exposing way you interact with this platform.

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  • [–] 3 points 9 months ago

    They weren't so much assumptions about specifically your usage, as I wasn't really speaking directly to you. Regardless of your specific situation, I still stand by my final point.

    Additionally, the availability of votes is largely a technical issue. It's been explained better and more in-depth than I have time for at the moment, but the idea (as far as I remember) was that because of Lemmy's instanced hosting nature, your votes are visible to instance operators anyway, and since that's not a particularly tough boundary to cross (nature of federated web), they just left it extended to all users.

    Someone correct or fill in information I've missed.

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  • [–] 0 points 9 months ago (1 child)

    At least when pouring my shit into Big Tech I can be reasonably sure that it disappears into the ocean of other data they have, and it's exceptionally unlikely that someone with the access to do so would actually look into me specifically.

    That any unhinged individual on the internet can pull out more information than strictly necessary about my online history is a completely different threat model. I understand that the federated model requires some level of data sharing to keep track of posts but I would kind of have expected that the instance that "owns" the post would be the only instance that needs this info.

    On the other hand, I'm sure that absolute privacy like completely hidden post history to some extent will help bad faith actors with troll farms and bots so I don't fucking know.

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  • [–] 15 points 9 months ago (3 children)

    i find it concerning because this enables creating a very detailed profile of a users interests, political alignment, medical issues, sexual orientation etc. Even if they never post anything!

    So don't interact. What you read isn't stored, but if you interact, it should be public.

    For example I accidentally upvoted a really disgusting NSFW post misclicking on my phone.

    I agree that it's dumb you don't have a "my votes" page where you can remove that. But you can go to said post and just remove your vote.

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  • [–] 17 points 9 months ago (2 children)

    So in a niche community we are now promoting that people don't interact with said community if they care about their privacy at all?

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  • [–] 15 points 9 months ago* (1 child)

    Not at all. I'm saying you should interact and stand behind your interactions.

    For example, you downvoted my post, which is fine. You also replied, which is also fine. Why is it bad that one isn't on your profile (but it is public) and the other is openly visible in a list on your profile?

    Interactions are by default public, otherwise there's no point to interacting. I'd go one further and say that having the voting information public but not visible by default is by far the worst option.

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  • [–] 23 points 9 months ago* (3 children)

    To be fair OP isn't the only one that finds it concerning. Kbin/Mbin had tons of complaints about its public voting until the Mbin devs decided to cave and hide downvotes. Piefed also tried to implement private voting before, but gave up because of their halfhearted approach not working out.

    I personally like public votes. It's great to see who upvoted me, especially if it's someone I recognize. While I miss being able to see downvotes, because sometimes I do feel like asking for feedback from downvoters on where I could do better.

    That said, there's an issue of consent there imo. So I do understand the complaints. While a receiving instance is technically free to do with the federated vote what they want, the user never really consented to that. It's like if an instance made private messages public. Theoretically it's allowed to, but that doesn't mean people would be happy about it.

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  • [–] 6 points 9 months ago* (2 children)

    To be 1000% clear, the voting agents on piefed worked just fine. They scrapped it because of forum politics. A few terminally online admins got real mad they couldn't stalk user votes and threatened to defederate, even though they could easily just ban the voting agents if they wanted. They made up a completely absurd and roundabout premise that they needed to be able to preemptively ban people based on votes in case they might make a "harmful comment" in the future. The fact that this was the primary concern indicates that the functionality worked as intended.

    Hopefully someone integrates the same functionality into an app. Honestly I'd take a swing at it if I had a bit more time.

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  • [–] 1 point 9 months ago (1 child)

    This is the post I remembered.

    This is what I meant with it failed because their halfhearted approach didn't work out:

    • Maintaining a list of trusted instances is a pain in the ass.

    They could have just used private voting with every instance, but they just had to segregate them by trust because the good (according to authoritative selection) instances should still be able to see what you voted for, and that was too much work to keep up, so they just scrapped the entire system instead of implementing blanket private voting...

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  • [–] 1 point 9 months ago*

    Right, the reason they tried to do the trusted instance nonsense is because of the threat of defederation after some major Lemmy admins threw a tantrum about it. They were cagey about admitting this openly but will basically admit that is the case if pressed.

    Back when they decided to scrap the idea (over back channel discussions with almost zero user input, I might add) I spent some time arguing about the decision, and Blaze basically came out and said that "You are welcome to fork the code and restore the functionality, but nobody would federate with you." I am paraphrasing, and don't care to go back and find the comment, but I'm sure someone else can if they are motivated.

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  • [–] [S] 1 point 9 months ago (6 children)

    I had expected reactions to be encrypted, as it's not a build in feature of Lemmy itself. If it was, I feel like it should have been visible, just like the modlog. There must have been a reason why the Lemmy devs don't show a list of who up votes or down votes

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  • [–] 21 points 9 months ago (1 child)

    Assume that everything you say and do online is public, unless explicitly stated (and proven) otherwise. The advantage of Lemmy (and Reddit in principle) is that your account is anonymous, it is not linked to your person. So you have some freedom to be who you want to be without repurcussions in your daily life.

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  • [–] 1 point 9 months ago

    Yes but it is frighteningly easy to identify users from post history if someone really cares to do it. You either have to never comment about anything personal, including providing your expertise since that can be somewhat unique, or mix in enough bullshit in a way that's not trivial to separate from the real stuff.

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  • [–] 5 points 9 months ago (3 children)

    If it would be encrypted, it would open up for vote manipulation. There are plans that mods will see who upvotes in their communities. Create multiple accounts on different instances if you need more privacy, separate personalities for different topics.

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  • [–] [S] 6 points 9 months ago (2 children)

    Create multiple accounts on different instances

    Isn't that manipulation too?

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  • [–] -1 points 9 months ago

    I solve that issue by having down votes disabled, I don't have the capability to down vote or see negative scores. It honestly made my experience on the platform better as well, because it helps hide the hive mind mentality that the platform as a whole seems to have at times.

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  • [–] -2 points 9 months ago (2 children)
  • [–] [S] 1 point 9 months ago (1 child)

    I think you missed the point of this - I don't mind down votes.

    I am just surprised that (some) users will actively use third party software to identify who made them, and then confront them publicly

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  • [–] 2 points 9 months ago

    I don't think it really matters, just don't dox yourself and you should be fine.
    Also you can have multiple accounts on different instances and stuff if you want.
    And I don't think you can tell that much by just upvotes and downvotes. I often times downvote stuff I've seen re-posted too much in different instances. I don't want to see the same thing dozens of times ofc, doesn't mean I necessarily have an issue with the content.
    Lastly I bet most people don't use that website anyway. I don't. What good does it do me to see who downvotes me? If we disagree on something... that's allowed.

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  • [–] 116 points 9 months ago* (19 children)

    The Fediverse is open, everything you do on here is fully public.

    It's why I prefer it over reddit, where who knows what really happens with all the vote manipulation and brigading.

    To answer your question, it is all listed alongside upvotes on the posts if using mbin.

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  • [–] 21 points 9 months ago* (12 children)

    Depends on the instance, mine is an mbin instance but the upvotes and downvotes are hidden.

    I remember coming across a site where you could put in a Fediverse URL and it would tell you who had upvoted and downvoted it, presumably it had an instance in the background that was tracking all that.

    Edit: lemvotes.org, linked below by another comment.

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  • [–] 18 points 9 months ago* (1 child)

    Yes, the information is sent to your instance, and then is being censored by your instance. It's personal choice for the instance and it's support. But your instance must either be commonly supporting you not seeing it, or dictating you aren't seeing it.

    Kind of like the championship football game played in the U.S. today before the Superbowl, where Fox edited out access to seeing people paying tribute to the man murdered by ice.

    Sometimes it's good to have information, sometimes people think it is not

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  • [–] 6 points 9 months ago (2 children)

    I would like to see the ratio of up/down, because that's IMO much more informative, if you allow votes at all. Personally I think votes just triggers some dopamine crap and is totally useless most of the times (exceptions are serious places where responsible people downvote wrong information for example)

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  • [–] 2 points 9 months ago (5 children)

    I'm also on fedia and I can see who upvoted and boosted a comment / thread / post.

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  • [–] 0 points 9 months ago (2 children)

    Can't see who downvoted, though. I've actually considered switching instances over this since that's the most important thing to "be serious" with, it'd be nice if people were more judicious with their downvotes and having them be an obvious public thing might make people think twice about that. But the whole upvote/downvote thing in general just seems like a broken concept to me a this point and I don't care all that much about it.

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  • [–] 2 points 9 months ago*

    I am on an instance without downvotes and I really don't miss it. I think it took me about a week for the muscle memory of downloading stupid comments to fade.

    If something is truly outrageous, I take it as a sign to just block the author. And if something is against the rules, I'll report it.

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  • [–] 2 points 9 months ago* (5 children)

    everything you do on here is fully public.

    Even DMs?

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  • [–] 1 point 9 months ago* (2 children)

    Yes.

    I don't know of any clients that publicly show it, but the information is sent out as a json that can be read by anyone setup to receive them.

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  • [–] 1 point 9 months ago (1 child)

    Thanks for the clarification but is it for non-local DMs only or even local DMs and if so why?

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  • [–] 1 point 9 months ago

    Hmm I'm not sure if it affects local.

    Because they're basically the same as a post or comment, it's how the fediverse works. They get sent out to anyone listening, and whoever is listening directs it where to go i.e. a community or users inbox. So all instances can update with a new post to their users who are subbed. In theory the DM would get ignored by everyone else who isn't the target, but one could easily set it up to not do so.

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  • [–] 44 points 9 months ago

    If someone is posting about you downvoting them, then they're a seriously flawed individual. Some people will take any reason they can to call other people racist. I think it's a fetish, honestly.

    You're fine.

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  • [–] 49 points 9 months ago (8 children)

    The protocol is ActivityPub not ActivityPriv

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  • [–] 16 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago) (5 children)

    I'm pretty sure the Pub doesn't stand for Public, but rather Publish.

    edit: not saying that it is private, just my opinion on whether the pub is an adjective or a verb

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  • [–] 35 points 9 months ago*

    Much easier to determine vote manipulation when there is no central authority to handle it and the votes, as well as moderation actions, are publicly visible.

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  • [–] 34 points 9 months ago (11 children)

    Isn't the Fediverse supposed to be open?

    You can show your personal support for something by upvoting it or your opposition to something by downvoting it, but if you don't want to take a stance on something at all, you don't have to.

    It's an entirely optional mechanic. You can fully utilize Lemmy to view, post, and comment without ever voting if you don't want to.

    As far as I'm aware, the votes don't really matter, anyway. Lemmy doesn't seem to use karma the way that Reddit does. i.e. I've never seen a post removed because the user didn't have enough karma, etc.

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  • [–] [S] 7 points 9 months ago (2 children)

    I agree - I was just surprised to be confronted publicly by a user, for down voting a post. Not that I didn't want to be exposed, but that people actually could look it up

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  • [–] 15 points 9 months ago (1 child)

    Oh, 100% agree that it's a bit unhinged to actively call out people because they down-dooted something you posted.

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  • [–] 4 points 9 months ago*

    I don't make it a habit to check, but it has been fun to check and call out in precisely two scenarios.

    • One user and I deep into a sub thread on a multiple day old post arguing about ettiquette here. Was weird to get multiple downvotes on those sorts of comments. They were using their "abandoned" alts.

    • Another thread where I had repeatedly asked someone to share the source for their claim despite them insisting that I just wasn't googling right. I offered them to edit literally every comment (multiple thousand) on this account to sing their praises. Downvoted with no response.

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  • [–] 1 point 9 months ago (6 children)

    The real question is why do we even need upvotes or down votes at all?

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  • [–] 0 points 9 months ago (3 children)

    On other platforms, it's a mechanism to assign a sort of "social worth" to people and ideas, and to tailor an algorithm to drive engagement.

    I think it exists on Lemmy purely to make it feel more like "Reddit but federated." Without the votes, this is just a normal message board. Lol

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  • [–] 4 points 9 months ago (1 child)

    If you sort everything by Newest Comments, then the votes don't matter to anything and it is just a normal message board. 😌

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  • [–] 3 points 9 months ago

    Exactly.

    But if Lemmy was just seen as a federated message board, it wouldn't have nearly the users that it does. It's popularity rocketed (compared to the rest of the Fediverse) specifically because it takes so much of it's style from Reddit.

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  • [–] 1 point 9 months ago

    So my instance doesn't have down votes, but it's still kind of like the inverted pyramid of a newspaper article. When I read the comments, I get all the most highly upvoted or new ones first, and by the time I get to the bottom of the comment thread with old comments with just one up-vote per post, I can feel the quality falling off, and I know it's time to go back to scrolling the feed.

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    [–] 14 points 9 months ago

    It needs to be open for federation to work. It needs to share what votes are by whom from where. If instances don't have this information they can't really moderate. They can't block people or other instances.

    Users typically don't have access to this information, but any admin does. Because of how federation works though, anyone can become an admin pretty easily. Also, you can go somewhere that publishes the data for you who's done that work already.

    I don't see this as an issue personally. It's just something to be aware of. I wish it was told to new users so they aren't surprised, but now that you know you can be prepared. Always assume others can see your votes.

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  • [–] 13 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago) (5 children)

    It's to guard against bot accounts. I'd much rather have that instead of the clearly manipulated comment sections on Reddit. The pro-israel posting and down voting went away almost overnight when we got broader access and a few mods got called out about it. Go look at a comment section about it that hits all on Reddit, there's clearly artificial voting going on.

    It's still not that hard to mess around but I'll take what I can get, and I guess it does keep the racists away, even if it's sometimes a false positive like in your case.

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  • [–] [S] 5 points 9 months ago* (4 children)

    I agree that it is good with transparency, but then this should also be freely available on the Lemmy platform, and even the clients, in the same way as modlogs list what is going on.

    I knew that admins could somehow go into the database and check who has done what, but I assumed that this was only the admin, and maybe even that the info was encrypted. It's alright with me that it's not, but then why not display it on each post and comment, with a list of interactions to it.

    In this case, it's this post:
    https://quokk.au/comment/3048088

    Although, the comment where people were being called out, may have been removed (not sure if it's because I have blocked the user, or they have blocked me)

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  • [–] 6 points 9 months ago

    I fully agree it should be transparent instead of a kind of trick you learn eventually. Won't happen anytime soon though, the Lemmy devs are against the notion. They actually block lemvotes on their instance which is a bit ironic because they insta ban people for down voting a lot from what I understand.

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  • [–] 4 points 9 months ago* (2 children)

    Community moderators can also directly see who upvotes or downvotes posts and comments on their community.

    It's not just through lemvotes.

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