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[–] 231 points 9 months ago (1 child)

This framing still sucks. Google is blocking apps THEY don't approve on YOUR phone.

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  • [+] 190 points 9 months ago (25 children)
  • [–] 60 points 9 months ago (2 children)

    They'll be able to stop a group of less technically savvy people, who currently are sideloading, from using their phones the way they choose. Apparently that's good enough for Google.

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  • [–] 7 points 9 months ago*

    I don't know, it's possible that the number of people already interested in sideloading and savvy enough to do it, but not savvy enough to get over this new hurdle, may be a very small number.

    I mean there are already some roadblocks to sideloading and scary system messages about safety and security risks.

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  • [–] 26 points 9 months ago (21 children)

    They already don't let you use Google pay if you don't give them control of your phone. This is just tightening the noose a little bit.

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  • [+] 36 points 9 months ago (11 children)
  • [–] 6 points 9 months ago (9 children)

    Would use something else if I had the choice

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  • [–] 10 points 9 months ago (8 children)

    Don't you have a physical card?

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  • [–] 2 points 9 months ago (3 children)

    I share a card with a family member. They have the physical one as it belongs to them, I use it on my phone

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  • [–] 1 point 9 months ago (2 children)

    You can't just get an extra card for the account? My bank does offer this, and it's how my parents have always shared their account.

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  • [–] 2 points 9 months ago* (1 child)

    Sadly, I can’t. It’s not a legally shared account, and part of a specific legislation in my country (France). Basically, it’s tied to an account that can be used exclusively to purchase food at half the price during work days

    When it’s more convenient (ex: I’m already outside), I buy food for my family using their card and bring it back to them on my way home

    It’s unfortunately one of the things that make me stay on stock iOS rather than Graphene, as I prefer stock iOS to stock Android in terms of looks, comfort, and privacy

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  • [–] 3 points 9 months ago (3 children)

    Less convenient and less secure.

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  • [–] 10 points 9 months ago (5 children)

    That is more the fault/worry of the financial sector and not G. The fact that they gave up this amount of leeway is shocking. Their risk tolerance is very low and giving G the ability to manage virtual cards and allow payments with them is huge in itself.

    Even Privacy, which does part of the same thing/idea, still only works for some cards, doesn't work at all for credit cards (last time I checked), and has been in the sector for a similar amount of time.

    G had to lock down Pay to appease the financial sector's risk management. Anything else was DOA.

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  • [–] 9 points 9 months ago (4 children)

    I wonder what an alternate history where Google chose not to become evil would look like.

    What if they had looked at Microsoft's Palladium proposal and thought, as pretty much everyone outside institutional IT departments did that locked devices with remote attestation was a nightmare scenario best forgotten, refused to build it, and made an effort to prevent anyone else from doing so on top of Android? Safetynet didn't appear until 5-6 years after Android launched to the public. What if it never did? Android already had enough momentum by that point I don't think the financial sector could refuse to be on it no matter what risk management said.

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  • [–] 10 points 9 months ago (3 children)

    Well, I kind of know what happened in that scenario... because it did. Until Pay, there was Wallet. The original Wallet, not the current one. Wallet had a physical and virtual prepaid debit card, that you would load up and manage in the app. I used it a few times (new tech woo), and distinctively remember ordering at a McDonald's, the clerk announced the cost, I held my Nexus 7 to the new nfc pad, they started to say 'uhh no you have to-' and then a success beep, and their jaw dropped. They thought it was nuts, I told them in a few years 'this will be everywhere'.

    So before Pay, there was Wallet, and it's own little sandbox of testing if anyone would use this. A couple years later the Wallet card discontinued, and Pay took its place.

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  • [–] 7 points 9 months ago

    A different Wallet/Pay implementation is a possible outcome, but I'm thinking of a bigger picture where Android phones are more like PCs: no non-unlockable bootloaders, no remote attestation anywhere, barriers to root detection at the OS level, third-party ROMs encouraged.

    The early days of Android were like that. I wonder if things had developed along that path, would we have a paradise for power users? A security nightmare for mainstream users? Both? Neither?

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  • [–] 93 points 9 months ago (6 children)

    So about those linux phones....

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  • [–] 42 points 9 months ago (5 children)

    Aaaaaaany day now..... guys..?

    (I have a pinephone and no, it is absolutely nowhere near ready)

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  • [–] 29 points 9 months ago (2 children)

    My guess is that any good Linux phone experience would need greater funding from some company or foundation....(Valve please?)

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  • [–] 15 points 9 months ago (1 child)

    That's kind of a double edged sword though. Android got a foothold because a small scrappy unknown company in silicon valley brought them into the fold...

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  • [–] 6 points 9 months ago (1 child)

    The Pinephone used way underpowered hardware when it came out.

    Regardless, there's been a lot of progress from postmarketOS and others the past years and especially accelerated once again with the original announcement to kill installing apps outside of the PlayStore.

    I've also gone ahead and put in a reservation for the new Jolla phone to support another alternative.

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  • [–] 65 points 9 months ago

    A "concession" to use your phone, and you need to give your address, phone number, and ID. Fuck off.

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  • [–] 49 points 9 months ago (1 child)

    Meanwhile the Play Store is full of scams. This isn't about safety, it making sure they get a cut from the scam apps.

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  • [–] 37 points 9 months ago

    They're not killing sideloading, they're just building the gallows and sharpening the axe.

    The outrage doesn't stop anything, it just makes them slow their plans and wait out the public outrage.

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  • [–] 103 points 9 months ago (17 children)

    I fucking hate that word. It's not 'sideloading' to install on my own device what I want to install, to use the apps I want to use; to not use the apps I don't want to use. I am not 'sideloading' anything when I install programs on my PC. No different on my phone.

    Fuck off with all these new bullshit terms that are only used to imply that what we're doing (with our own devices) is somehow outside the norm, to justify the constant enshittifcation and the growing stranglehold these corporations want on our lives. It's infuriating.

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  • [–] 8 points 9 months ago (3 children)

    I'm sure there's something in the EULA about how it's actually their device and we are just licensing it, just like software. I hate this tech feudalism so much.

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  • [–] 2 points 9 months ago (2 children)

    You know, it's very possible, because I've never actually read an entire EULA, I don't think.

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  • [–] 3 points 9 months ago

    @wide_eyed_stupid @arararagi I will never read the TOS and if it says I can’t use the machine I own as I see fit, they can shove the EULA and the DMCA it rode in on up their ass sideways.

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  • [–] 5 points 9 months ago (2 children)

    @wide_eyed_stupid @Gsus4 “You will own nothing, and if you don’t like it you can talk to the security cyberdog that has you in its sights.”

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  • [–] 1 point 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago) (1 child)

    @su_liam @wide_eyed_stupid @Gsus4 if you dont like it just root your phone oh but you have to delete everything you have and no your phone cant create functional backups to this day "because security" oh also now nothing works because "root detected"

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  • [–] 10 points 9 months ago* (7 children)

    It's not a "bullshit new term", it's three decades old and means transferring files locally from one device to another, instead of directly downloading or uploading from/to an external server.

    The origin goes back to MP3.com and i-drive in late 90's, but the most common sideloading people did was downloading music to their PC using services like iTunes, and transferring them to their mp3 players. As they did often with early PDA and smartphone apps, where the term for Android comes from - get the .apk on your computer, transfer it to your phone, and install it.
    Sideloading.

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  • [–] 18 points 9 months ago

    Okay, but Google uses it in a way where directly going to the server they host F-Droid.apk, downloading and installing it counts as sideloading.

    If anything, using Google Play is sideloading by that definition, since I can't just download a release from the originators' server, they need to first transfer it into a secondary location, Google's servers, and I can only install it from there.

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  • [–] 9 points 9 months ago

    Fair, it's not a new term. I was born in the 80'ies, I'm familiar with the concept.

    However, it's now being used with new bullshit meaning (i.e. going outside the Google/Apple app and their own offered selection), and media are normalizing this use.

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  • [–] 6 points 9 months ago (1 child)

    so you're saying it is the wrong word, because most apks are downloaded from the internet on-device. That is not a local transfer

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  • [–] 3 points 9 months ago*

    It is still the same installation method, directly installing the .apk file, from way back when the term for Android usage was defined. So, kinda, but also kinda not. Also, if you do use ADB to do the install from a PC, the command is "ADB sideload filename" which will do the transfer and installation to the memory directly. Then it truly is sideloading as defined.

    Android doesn't use ROMs (Read-only Memory) any more either, because the filesystems are now writable. But Lineage etc are still called custom ROMs, because the end result hasn't changed.

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  • [–] 2 points 9 months ago*

    @JohnEdwa @wide_eyed_stupid the origin of a term is not the same as what a term means today, today it is used as "installing an application" but its somehow different or weird somehow; because idfk you didnt ask google or apple first .. often you dont even transfer locally but instead download from the browser or an app store not made by apple or google ..

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  • [–] -1 points 9 months ago* (1 child)

    @JohnEdwa @wide_eyed_stupid indeed. but it takes only a single incendiarily indignant but factually wrong mastodon post to force anyone left who's still reading wikipedia to clarify forever, because the OP is being parroted until hell freezes over.

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  • [–] 33 points 9 months ago (6 children)

    "side" loading is just normal loading for me. I have one single app from the google app store. (It's cookie clicker 😂)

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  • [–] 48 points 9 months ago

    Even calling it side loading is an attempt to delegitimise the practice. To make it sound like you're doing something dodgy by the side.

    It's just installing an app.

    Nobody calls installing an app from outside the Microsoft store on their Windows PC "side loading".

    Likewise for Macs regarding their app store, or installing an app from outside your distro's repository on Linux.

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  • [–] [S] 6 points 9 months ago (4 children)

    Do you use Fdroid or simply get apks online, like we all used to before these walled gardens?

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  • [–] 6 points 9 months ago

    Neither ! I use Obtainium, which allows you to get apps directly from the source, with the convenience of a normal app store for updating !

    I usually look for apps on droid-ify, which is an alternative front end to f-droid, then whenever possible I copy the link of the source repo and install via Obtainium ; when I can't I install the f-droid version via Obtainium as well (as a result, I have 0 apps installed by droid-ify, I only use it for search)

    When I need an App Store exclusive app, I install it via Aurora Store (which downloads apps via shared anonymous accounts)

    The only thing this system can't get around is paid apps from the App Store. I have exactly one : Cookie Clicker. (I like the game in general so I paid to support the dev)

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  • [–] 4 points 9 months ago* (2 children)

    I use fdroid whenever possible, but I do use Google Play for most everything else. I do have a few apps that I install via APK, but built-in updaters are so uncommon on Android apps that it's kind of a pain to maintain.

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  • [–] 33 points 9 months ago

    The company has confirmed that it is developing an "advanced flow" to let experienced users install apps from unverified developers

    How about don't change it at all, Google

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  • [–] 27 points 9 months ago (1 child)

    They must really hate ReVanced.

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  • Can anyone verify if this is the "new" update to the process? The article takes 75% of the way to get to this paragraph and isn't even clear if this is Google's proposed concession or an existing separate process:

    To accommodate educational and noncommercial development, Google will introduce a new limited developer account type aimed at students and hobbyists. These accounts will not undergo full identity verification but will instead allow app installations on a restricted number of registered devices.

    If that is the workaround, it sounds like it's still awful since it requires a Google developer account and really only would work for limited development deployment.

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  • [–] 20 points 9 months ago

    Billionaires doing what a billionaire does: feign a reason to kneecap a service, force complaints about its ineffectiveness, then use that as an excuse to dismantle it entirely. I am so tired of this.

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  • [–] 17 points 9 months ago (2 children)

    Weird that they want to do all the verification themselves and not just allow certificate signing using verified CAs. Oh well it's not weird because we all know Google does this to fight back against third party stores and to get developers back to their shitty one and of course to better track them.

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  • [–] 2 points 9 months ago (1 child)

    I'm guessing what you're suggesting is that Google's proposal is the same as requiring all packages be signed and accompanied by an Extended Validation or Oragnisation Validation X.509 certificate.

    While that would technically work, the problem with using the existing PKI is that it's still very expensive to get EV/OV certificates. And the most common of these certs (those for TLS purposes) will soon only last 47 days which is, to put it mildly, would be a pain in the ass to use for package-signing.

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  • [–] 1 point 9 months ago

    My project uses a free one from SignPath. They offer this for opensource projects and require a verifiable GitHub build process. It's not EV certs but it's good enough and free.

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  • [–] 17 points 9 months ago

    Great, more hoops to jump thr... I mean... an "advanced flow", for gaining the privilege of installing apps of your choosing

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  • [–] 16 points 9 months ago

    Boiling the frog

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  • [–] 15 points 9 months ago

    remember when people were actually excited about new android releases because they were weird and consumer friendly?

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  • [–] 14 points 9 months ago

    This is from November, and is about the 'student accounts' thing which doesn't at all help the central issue of being forced to make an account to distribute your app

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  • [–] 13 points 9 months ago (1 child)

    Perfect time for the Chinese to setup a shell company in Mexico that sells smartphones & devices with AOSP-android-based OS to the US. It'll sell like hot cakes.

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  • [–] 2 points 9 months ago

    It’ll sell like hot cakes.

    Nope... lot of apps won't run.

    Nobody is buying a phone without Google Play Certification.

    Not to mention, some carriers like ATT have a weird whitelist thing.

    Also, there might be compatibility issues with provisioning the SIM, since I just had an issue with LineageOS breaking data connection, but restoring factory rom fixes it, then I flash Lineage again and it broke again, so yeah... I expect similar issues with a "Non- Google Play Certified" device.

    Biggest thing is: Netflix Widewine defaults back to L3 instead of L1 requited for HD stuff

    Before you say "just pirate", most people don't know how to do that. Also somethings can't even get pirated since its so niche.

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  • [–] 25 points 9 months ago

    I'm not worried about sideloading because I use GrapheneOS, but I'm worried that development for various apps might stop...

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  • [–] 17 points 9 months ago*

    edit: this is an article from November, its not something new...


    bullshit! if this is actually what the "new" rule is, the exact same thing was already part of their unacceptable original plans.

    To accommodate educational and noncommercial development, Google will introduce a new limited developer account type aimed at students and hobbyists. These accounts will not undergo full identity verification but will instead allow app installations on a restricted number of registered devices.

    no to any kind of accounts, to any kind of developer registration, and any kind of install limits! its none of google's business what apps people install outside their store, and so they shouldn't be able to enforce a global installation limit for any apps!

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  • [–] 15 points 9 months ago (3 children)

    Cool story, goog.

    I'm just going to keep waiting for a linux/foss phone so that its features and capabilities are actually predictable year to year.

    But maybe I'm just too picky about what features and capabilities I want. I admit I've gotten used to some pretty outlandish stuff like... lemme check my notes here... "the device does the things I tell it to do." Real galaxy-brain shit!

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  • [–] 2 points 9 months ago (2 children)

    Not trying to be pessimistic: But Good luck with the linux phone when carriers start doing whitelisting like ATT already does

    (Unless you wanna dual-phone?)

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  • [–] 1 point 9 months ago (1 child)

    For carriers like AT&T, texting & other data are important. Dumb phones won't provide them the data needed. They will absolutely support Linux phones.

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  • [–] 1 point 9 months ago

    No, there are reports of fairphones (which aren't even linux) not being allowed on ATT already.

    Some managed to call customer support to get their their specific phone's imei whitelisted, but like... if the person you get doesn't know what you're talking about, you'd have to keep calling until you find someone competent, so good luck on the "Customer Support hell" with long queue and stuff. And the system could change any time, the manual whitelisting feature could get turned off tomorrow. If there are any issues with service, they'te just gonna blame your phone for not being on their approved list of phone models.

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  • [–] 7 points 9 months ago

    If Google continues to round the corners of their Google Play triangle icon, it’ll become a circle in a few years

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  • [–] 6 points 9 months ago

    It's all about herding people by dictating the path of least resistance.

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  • [–] 6 points 9 months ago (4 children)

    Are there any longstanding open source alternatives to Android OS?

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  • [–] [S] 10 points 9 months ago (2 children)
  • [–] 17 points 9 months ago

    Lineage, Graphene, and /e/ OS are all forks I believe, not alternatives (since they are dependent on the main Android branch for some updates and feature implementations).

    Linux phones don't really have enough support for the necessary applications to be viable for most people, at least for now.

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  • [–] 2 points 9 months ago

    I installed LineageOS on my Motorola and the data connection stops working... restored back to factory rom and it starts working again

    So I guess if you really want to use it as a wifi-only device, sure

    or daily drive 2 phones with one of them on the factory rom to use as a hotspot for the other one running Lineage

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  • [–] 11 points 9 months ago

    Fuck all of this tech bros enshittification surveillance bullshit. I'm going to Radio Shack and buy a Heath Kit! /s

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  • [–] 4 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago)

    I use GrapheneOS (Lineage OS and CyanogenMod before that) and I'm perfectly happy with just alternative software installation sources.

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  • [–] 3 points 9 months ago

    My entire job depends on such an app, so this is a bit of a relief.

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  • [–] 2 points 9 months ago* (1 child)

    afaik this was the plan from the beginning, but nobody was reading any of the articles that they never clicked on

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  • [–] -1 points 9 months ago

    "Starting in Brazil"

    Not as much of a proactive people, from what I can see in person, but the "jeitinho brasileiro" hopefully will show ways to make Android programs without Google's tools.

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