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[–] 162 points 10 months ago (38 children)

Wow that's depressing. I guess the main solace is that if Sony patents this then we're unlikely to see this practice on other systems.

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  • [–] 46 points 10 months ago (5 children)

    Still, on the long list of shit we need to fix with America, fixing the patent system is a big one.

    Large corps buy them like lotto tickets and try to patent anything and everything they can.

    Look how long WB has sat on the Nemisis system because they got a patent a decade ago on it. It wasn't really a unique idea, but thousands of games have been prevented from doing anything similar.

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  • [–] 16 points 10 months ago* (4 children)
  • [–] 3 points 10 months ago (3 children)

    They patented a very specific algorithm for a very specific kind of game. You can still do knock-offs of the system in the same way you can make RTS games without asking Blizzard's permission or platformers without asking Nintendo's.

    I would suspect that SoM's system is complex enough that nobody's been eager to try and replicate it. But they high level concept of randomized enemy generation isn't something you can patent. Neither is randomizing story elements between NPCs.

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  • [–] 8 points 10 months ago* (1 child)

    Digital Extremes was going to do something somewhat similar with their nemesis system in Warframe but had to scrap it because of that patent. So now we have the mediocre Lich/Sister/Boyband systems in place instead.

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  • [–] 1 point 10 months ago

    The Lich system was pretty close to the mark. Possible that developers gave the underlying features of SoM a wide berth out of caution, but so much of this seems to boil down to "we don't want to risk the possibility of a lawsuit" rather than "we can't just do our thing and see if WB's lawyers care enough".

    So long as you're not directly ripping off the code from another system, patent courts have been pretty generous in interpreting overlapping abstract concepts.

    But any kind of suit is scary, particularly for studios that aren't geared up to fight them.

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  • [–] 42 points 10 months ago (10 children)

    A lot of times companies will patent things that they don't necessarily intend to ever produce. Sometimes to obscure the patents that they actually do want to produce. Sometimes to reserve it in the case that they do want to later. And sometimes so that no one else can.

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  • [–] 41 points 10 months ago* (5 children)

    This. Sony patented the stand up and say something to skip ads.

    This was a decade ago, and it’s not a thing, and won’t be a thing.

    Also, the OP article is an accessibility thing, sometimes people just can’t physically do stuff, fuck them for their disability I guess is what top level comment is saying.

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  • [–] 18 points 10 months ago (1 child)

    As someone who does have a cognitive disability, there is a genuine difference between augmented input/level skip vs. what is effectively an integrated TAS.

    Mario Kart 8 is a good example of accessibility that still empowers the player, as the player still needs to hold an input and retains control of the character - it's just that massive errors that would result in loss (IE: falling off the track) are prevented by corrective steering taking control.

    An automated TAS gives no empowerment to the player - it's no different that running a lengthy macro script. If I wanted to watch the characters have an adventure without my ability to have influence in the journey, I'd just watch a movie instead.

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  • [–] -3 points 10 months ago*

    Why are you assuming everyone will use it for the whole game? While that’s a possibility, those would be edge cases. The article specifically talks about it helping with CERTAIN parts. If you just ignore a major point of an article, of course you can embellish and look foolish.

    Having a TAS to beat certain sections or a hard boss would be awesome, having it play the whole game? Well some people will have a benefit from it, but not for me.

    And physical disabilities exist too!

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  • [–] 11 points 10 months ago (1 child)

    Ai is not, and cannot be considered an accessibility feature. If anything it'll just stifle any genuine attempts to create something accessible because why bother trying to make the game fun for everyone when the ai can just play the game for you when you're stuck

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  • [–] -3 points 10 months ago*

    What a horrible take.

    I get “screw ai” but this doesn’t even need to use ai to work.

    But go off I guess, people like you are just the worse. Decrying Ai, doubly so when it’s not even relevant to the story.

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  • [–] 1 point 10 months ago (3 children)

    Also, this isn't possible with current or even next gen tech, unless they literally script the "AI" responses to all available situations which would be infeasible.

    LLMs can't reason or handle complex situations. They are text auto complete programs or image generation programs.

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  • [–] 2 points 10 months ago* (2 children)

    Game playing is not LLM. They're game-specific reinforcement learning models. It's not easy, but definitely doable with existing tech. Sony's GT Sophy is a good demonstration on what they're capable of.

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  • [–] 1 point 10 months ago (1 child)

    Machine learning is not viable for anything other than simpler 2d games or small segments of more complex games. The training required to get good results on that is intense already.

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  • [–] 1 point 10 months ago

    It is expensive, but it does work. We've already seen things work to a limited extent on StarCraft 2, Dota, and Gran Turismo, and those are all multiplayer games. The article seems to be talking about single player games, which simplified things a lot.

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  • [–] 5 points 10 months ago

    What is your problem with it? Just seems like an accessability feature to me. The one issue I see with it is folks who don't need it using it in lieu of walkthroughs and wasting energy. I don't expect that to be that big an issue though, generally people buy games because they want to play them.

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  • [+] -7 points 10 months ago* (19 children)

    Just screw disabled people eh?

    Somethings aren’t possible for people to do, this would allow them to enjoy playing games still.

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  • [–] 9 points 10 months ago (15 children)

    Are you really playing the game if the game is just playing itself?

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  • [–] 2 points 10 months ago (12 children)

    Just certain sections. You could get it to do the whole thing I guess.

    You would still be experiencing the story as it’s meant to be told. Why do you think you have to “play” to fully enjoy something?

    Why do you think “let’s play” videos exist? Now instead, they can support the devs by buying the game and experiencing it themselves.

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  • [–] 1 point 10 months ago (11 children)

    Why do you think you have to “play” to fully enjoy something?

    Where do you think I said or even implied this?

    Why do you think “let’s play” videos exist?

    Entertainment

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  • [–] 1 point 10 months ago* (10 children)

    Your previous comment says exactly that. Your own words.

    Entertainment

    So now they can support the dev and actually participate! Even better! Except for according to you.

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  • [–] 3 points 10 months ago (9 children)

    Please go ahead and quote where you think it says either of those things.

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  • [–] 3 points 10 months ago* (8 children)

    Are you really playing the game if the game is just playing itself?

    People enjoy different things, and you don’t need to play something to enjoy it. Your words.

    People love watching sports, they aren’t playing are they?

    Hell even point and click games exist, and those “play themselves” while you merely interact with the screen.

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  • [–] 1 point 10 months ago* (7 children)

    You were supposed to quote a part that said either of those things, instead of simply asking if it counts as playing the game if the game is doing the playing for you.

    People love watching sports, they aren’t playing are they?

    That's... exactly the point?

    you merely interact with the screen.

    In a point and click game if you are pointing and clicking it sounds like you are playing the game?

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  • [–] 2 points 10 months ago (6 children)

    You have an extremely ignorant and narrow view of what “playing” means.

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  • [–] 2 points 10 months ago (5 children)

    You just agreed with me in your watching sports example... Another you might agree with is that watching someone's lets play probably doesn't count as playing the game.

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  • [–] 1 point 10 months ago* (4 children)

    If you’re disabled and can’t actually do those things…?

    Absolutely not, they would be considered playing, your ignorance and ableism for disabled people is showing too much.

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  • [–] 3 points 10 months ago* (3 children)

    If you’re disabled and can’t actually do those things…?

    If you can't actually do a thing then it sounds like you're saying you aren't doing the thing?

    Absolutely not, they would be considered playing

    Did I understand correctly that in an otherwise identical situation, disabled person who is watching sports is playing sports in your opinion (while also saying they can't play sports), even though an able person watching sports isn't playing them?

    That sounds contradictory.

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  • [–] 1 point 10 months ago (1 child)

    If you are disabled and skip certain parts of a game, you are still playing the rest of it.

    This is not the same as watching a lets play or sport. Since you are still actively involved.

    So even with this AI, you are still playing the game.

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  • [–] 3 points 10 months ago (2 children)

    You don't need an AI to skip, bypass, or cinematic your way through a difficult section. That's a game design issue, not a patentable AI issue. This does not support disabled people, this will be used to ignore disabled people during game design and fire people who are actually competent at supporting disabled people.

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  • [–] -2 points 10 months ago* (1 child)

    This doesn’t prevent the other from happening. Why are you assuming that? Both can work hand in hand to deal with different issues

    Of course, if you just want to come in and see a company as evil, you won’t ever see the other side.

    Sony is pretty good with their accessibility program, I don’t see why things would suddenly turn 180. Unless you just want to I guess. But that’s not reality.

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  • [–] 2 points 10 months ago

    Because I work in software development and I see first-hand exactly what executives are currently doing with AI. That's what they're doing. That's the reality. What other side is there? That we're going to get more games at lower prices thanks to AI? Sure, if you believe that I've got a real nice bridge to sell you too, get out your wallet and just hand it to me.

    If given all the evidence of the entire fucking economy of the world you think companies aren't focused exclusively on short-term, short-sighted profits by minimizing costs and maximizing revenue, you're so delusional you must be smoking capitalism like a drug.

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  • [+] 52 points 10 months ago (6 children)
  • [–] 42 points 10 months ago (2 children)

    Sony invents radical new idea of a passive medium where you just watch the action instead of control it.

    Wait a minute...

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  • [–] 16 points 10 months ago (1 child)

    It could be a good idea! Maybe we should create rooms with big screens for people to watch it together. We could make them pay for it and it would be a great opportunity to sell pop-corns and Coca-Cola!

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  • [–] 31 points 10 months ago (2 children)

    I'm just gonna end up being an old man in my basement, staying warm with the radiant glow from my CRT monitor while playing SNES, Genesis and NES games.

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  • [–] 23 points 10 months ago (1 child)

    And the next patent will be about a controller, not actually being plugged into the console, but merely giving gamers the illusion of affecting the gameplay...

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  • [–] 20 points 10 months ago (1 child)

    Every game is an idle game now... ?

    Sure, why not.

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  • [–] 20 points 10 months ago (1 child)

    Isn’t this already done with Mario game(s)? I think it was Super Mario Deluxe, where if you die enough times, Luigi shows up and will be doing the entire level for you including the ‘boss’ fight.

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  • [–] 5 points 10 months ago

    On Super Mario Wii U this happens. My daughter used it to see how to get through levels she was having trouble with. It's frustrating to watch, though it showed me I was wrong that levels basically needed the run button to be held to make it across the gaps.

    And then you can either accept that the ghost beat the level for you or go back to trying.

    But, the thing is it's not very difficult to do this with specific games. You can just record the inputs as they come in and replay those, which is how replays or saved games often work.

    Seems like they want to be able to do this for arbitrary games, which requires a much more sophisticated system that can understand what's on the screen, what the goals are, and how to achieve them using just video and audio feedback (and maybe hint documents from the makers).

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  • [–] 19 points 10 months ago (1 child)
  • [–] 19 points 10 months ago

    This feels like it's going to incentivise developers to either make bad puzzles, or bad hint systems. Why bother with a good one if the platform has a "complete this for me" feature? It is basically impossible for players to get stuck or struggle, when they're either shown the solution, or the game completes it for them.

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  • [–] 38 points 10 months ago (1 child)
  • [–] 15 points 10 months ago (4 children)

    I'm not sure how I feel about games that are easy enough that AI can play them, and that people might need help with them.

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  • [–] 17 points 10 months ago (2 children)

    The games we play are that easy though. Dark souls with eyes = hard, dark souls to an entity which has no eyes, but can read RAM states = easy.

    Most singleplayer games (so the opponents are clockwork) are easy to enough to play with heuristics, why do we need a whole ass neural network?

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  • [–] -2 points 10 months ago

    People want to do things with their friends and gaming is the acceptable addiction that is forcing non gamers to play anyways. So now games are… not games so much as they are just time wasters to fill in for experiences.

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  • [–] 15 points 10 months ago (9 children)

    Remember when the way to beat hard bosses was to either git gud or input a built in cheat code? Pepperidge Farms remembers

    MMO veterans might be very interested in this kind of totally never seen before type of play automation

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  • [–] 1 point 10 months ago (7 children)

    Why would you single out MMO veterans in this scenario? I've been playing MMOs since 2001 AND I git gud. I am the older sibling/cousin that you hand your controller to when you don't want to git gud to pass a boss.

    Overall... I hate this idea that Sony has. If this becomes the norm I might never play a new game again 😭

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  • [–] 1 point 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago) (3 children)

    Why would you single out MMO veterans in this scenario?

    Not op, but I took it as being because MMOs are the only one form of modern games where anyone really cares if the player cheats. So MMOs tend not to leave developer cheat codes lying around.

    (Edit: Yes, other competitive games do exist, I guess.)

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  • [–] 2 points 10 months ago

    Ahh that makes sense, I totally misunderstood it. My bad. Also there are auto playing programs that exist lol. People use programs to create bots that farm gear, materials, and currency. EverQuest has one called MacroQuest that has the ability to do literally everything for you 😹

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  • [–] 13 points 10 months ago

    Oh boy, the darksouls community is doing to be very funny to read

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  • [–] 14 points 10 months ago* (1 child)

    I wanted robots to do my chores but instead they are taking my job and my hobbies! Hopefully they become addicted to gaming and don't to take my job anymore.

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  • [–] 27 points 10 months ago (1 child)

    There is a small bit of intrigue here, imagine you get to a boss and think, 'this is impossible' but there is an ability to observe a ghost of your character taking the boss on in your gear.

    Bare in mind as well that 'AI' has existed as a word in gaming for decades and has nothing to do with LLMs, surely this is achieveable purely with the gaming definition of 'AI' simply coding the PC also as an NPC that reacts to things.

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    [–] 13 points 10 months ago

    Hey Alexa, have fun, so I don't have to!!

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  • [–] 12 points 10 months ago

    ...fuck off.

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  • [–] 22 points 10 months ago (2 children)

    Didn't Nintendo do this in the New Super Mario Bros.? If you died enough times, it asked you if you wanted Luigi (or some other character?) to show you how to do the course.

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  • [–] 9 points 10 months ago (1 child)

    Yep. Stadia also had a feature like this (that no one ever used).

    Just another example of why software patents should not exist.

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  • [–] 7 points 10 months ago

    Stadia was a Squandered Opportunities masterclass. That platform had SO much potential; the tech was there, and the tech worked, but Google hired the worst possible person to run the project.

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  • [–] 11 points 10 months ago (1 child)

    this just in the next generation of video games will play themselves. Due to rising costs though play time for most run-throughs will top out at about 90 minutes.

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  • [–] 9 points 10 months ago

    Look, that ledge has yellow paint. I bet I can climb it.

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  • [–] 9 points 10 months ago* (4 children)

    Sometimes I like to play a game on max difficulty, sometimes I choose easy chill mode so I'm all for games having a wide difficulty scale of options.

    This just seems stupid, and more like they can't be arsed to balance a bunch of difficulties so just slap some AI slop in there and call it done.

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  • [–] 2 points 10 months ago (3 children)

    I don't know if you can describe it as "can't be arsed" when their proposed solution is so much harder to implement.

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  • [–] 1 point 10 months ago (1 child)

    Is it? What's so fucking hard about it?

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  • [–] 1 point 10 months ago

    The main difficulty is in how many hyperparameters are involved in training an RL agent, high sensitivity of RL algorithms to those hyperparameters, and not having a good understanding of how to select them based on the properties of your task. This problem is exacerbated by the high sample complexity of RL. If something doesn't work out, you don't know if it's because you chose the wrong set of hyperparameters or if you just haven't trained for long enough.

    I don't know much about game design, but I do know that it's a much more mature field than RL, so surely they have better tools than guessing and praying.

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  • [–] 8 points 10 months ago

    Nintendo has been doing this since the Wii era.

    New Super Mario Bros, Donkey Kong Country Returns, Super Mario Maker 2…

    Technically all the Rhythm Heaven games also have this feature.

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  • [–] 8 points 10 months ago

    I wonder if this is a step toward them self-purchasing game micro transactions, too. ..

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  • [–] 8 points 10 months ago

    So a bot? Those have been in gaming for fucking ever.

    This patent is so dumb.

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  • [–] 7 points 10 months ago

    What they gonna watch a movie for me too? Fucka my wife for me? Eat a steak for me? I can see this for games for kids like with that Mario example, but for everyone else seems like it would be a nuisance. At least have it be opt in.

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  • [–] 6 points 10 months ago

    What is even the point then?

    Just watch a movie or read a book.

    Shit, listen to an audiobook if you're that lazy!

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  • [–] 6 points 10 months ago

    God I remember doing a puzzle in Jedi fallen order and about half way through it's like "oh maybe you should do this" and pointed me to the solution... Like if I'm playing on the hardest difficulty why are you throwing hints that ruin the whole thing?

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