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[–] 105 points 10 months ago (15 children)

I would love to get behind the idea she was some kind of genius Andy Kaufman type, but she was just a narcissist who couldn’t stand not being the center of attention.

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  • [+] -38 points 10 months ago* (6 children)

    She was an avant-garde artist and no one was forced to pay attention to her ever but they acted like it

    she was just a narcissist who couldn’t stand not being the center of attention.

    You could arguably say this about every artist, you're just jealous that they have more confidence than you

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  • [–] 34 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago)

    Aehhhh...

    You can think someone is a famous narcissist, and not be jealous of their fame or talent or confidence at all.

    And, there are also a great number of artists who... eschew fame, have comparitively little public identity or persona.

    ... you probably just haven't heard about as many of them though.

    Because they don't really like to 'do' marketing, as much as they like to 'do' art, so you tend to have to actually go looking for them.

    EDIT:

    An expansion on the first concept:

    To clarify the first point a bit, I'm pretty darned confident about my own abilities, ideas and opinions.

    But I don't care at all to be widely or broadly recognized or praised, I in fact very much prefer the opposite of that, I like my peace and privacy, all I really need is a small amount of validation from a few people, every once in a while.

    Most of the time, I can self-validate, while also doing my best to also have a healthy level of self-criticality, sanity checking myself, admitting fault when I've been too bull-headed.

    ... An actual narcissist seemingly cannot do any of that. They need, like, literally need to be constantly reaffirmed, praised, paid attention to, seemingly have their own cult of personality based around them.

    They don't seem to be able to actually be self-confident, in a self-contained way, they instead just pantomime, fake, front, act as if they are supremely confident, but its an act, not the real thing.

    Inside, they're Patrick Bateman, a mask of a charismatic personality wrapped around a tumultuous void of nothing, that almost always eventually collapses in on itself.

    So... I'm not jealous of the confidence of a narcissist, because I have the real thing.

    I actually pity them and their inability to ... auto-self-validate.

    I'm also not jealous of their fame, I don't want that at all, sounds awful.

    While I do appreciate the talent some particular narcissist may have at some particular thing... I'm not envious, jealous, made insecure or made to feel lacking in some way, by not having that level of skill.

    I just appreciate and respect that someone has that level of skill.

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  • [–] 15 points 10 months ago (2 children)

    If her art was being as asshole then yes I agree she was great at her art

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  • [–] 6 points 10 months ago

    I don’t like saying anything nice about the woman, but she was pretty much the leading Fluxus artist in the 60s and 70s. As an artist, she’s actually quite talented.

    She’s still a fucking bitch though. I met her once, and it was thoroughly unpleasant.

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  • [–] 9 points 10 months ago (1 child)

    Maybe a niche cut but I'd call Rodney Mullen a legendary artist who is completely devoid of narcissism and want-of attention. It's not some requirement to act like Kanye to be a good artist.

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  • [+] -36 points 10 months ago (7 children)
  • [–] 31 points 10 months ago (1 child)
  • [–] 10 points 10 months ago (1 child)

    I have no particular opinion on Yoko Ono, but the comments here are quite funny. 🍿

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    [–] 26 points 10 months ago (1 child)

    I'm not going to comment on the subjective nature of her shallow art, but the way she treated Julian Lennon was unforgivable.

    She began cutting him out when John was still alive, and then fully cut him out of the estate when John died. He wanted some of his father's letters, but she forced him to buy them at auction. He eventually had to sue her, and eventually got a generous settlement, but he never should have had to go through all that.

    You can blame John for not doing enough for his son, but we all know that Yoko was whispering poison in his ear like Wormtongue.

    Nah, I'm not going to be one of her apologists. Yoko sucks.

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  • [–] 23 points 10 months ago (7 children)

    I don't know if she was a troll or a narcissist or whatever everyone else claims. But she did seem to be a little nuts, or at least tone deaf. You can see in that performance with John and Chuck Berry where she just starts sort of screeching in the background on mic for no reason she was at least a little unhinged.

    You can call it avant garde, you can say she was annoying, etc. Etc. but she did seem to just shove herself into Johns limelight a lot. There are plenty of other spouses that are just happy to be with their partner, and go with them, but she clearly was intent on shoving herself into the spotlight with him, through whatever means she felt was accessible.

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  • [–] 10 points 10 months ago (5 children)

    but she clearly was intent on shoving herself into the spotlight with him, through whatever means she felt was accessible

    Well, I mean yeah, she cowrote and performed with him frequently, they were musical partners as well.

    If you think the one Chuck Berry video that's been memed to death is the extent of her creative contributions, you're simply ignorant.

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  • [–] 0 points 10 months ago (4 children)

    she ruined a great time for John & Chuck. They were both clearly into each other's music, both Chuck and John's just dripping with enthusiasm and excitement, and then she's gotta start fucking keening like a banshee on meth.

    it may not be the extent of her creativity but it's a sure sign of someone who's out there to ruin it for other people.

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  • [–] 5 points 10 months ago (3 children)

    it’s a sure sign of someone who’s out there to ruin it for other people.

    It's not, you're assigning motive based on how it makes you feel. She's made experimental/avant garde music before without trying to "ruin" someone else's fun, so the explanation with the least assumptions is that she simply felt like adding that to the mix.

    Why is the narrative with Yoko Ono always that she's trying to "ruin" something?

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  • [–] -2 points 10 months ago (2 children)

    Why is the narrative with Yoko Ono always that she’s trying to “ruin” something?

    well, it could be because everything she touched got demonstrably worse when she contributed. Huh...?

    lemme ask you, as a Yoko Fan: Do you appreciate that performance of Memphis, TN as music, or is it like, watch, she'll have a tantrum and it will make it SO MUCH BETTER?

    Artistically you're going to say she added something GOOD to the performance?

    Pfft

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  • [–] 5 points 10 months ago (1 child)

    well, it could be because everything she touched got demonstrably worse when she contributed. Huh…?

    Not really? Sorry you don't like Lennon's post-Beatles career, but he would take great umbrage to you saying she "ruined" him.

    as a Yoko Fan

    I'm actually not, just because I'm not a Yoko Hater doesn't mean I like her.

    Artistically you’re going to say she added something GOOD to the performance?

    Not at all, it's rare for me to enjoy experimental music, I can just compartmentalize Yoko the artist and not try and pathologize her as banshee that seeks to ruin everything she touches because she makes noises I don't like.

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  • [–] 59 points 10 months ago (25 children)

    Yoko Ono is a terrible fucking human being

    Her "art" is absolute trash, in the worst sense. As in, she says it is art, but it is objectively garbage.

    She treated people around her like shit.

    Just read about how she handled the letters between John Lennon and his son.

    Fuck that bitch. She rode the coat tails of someone who was an actual artist and the only discussion her "art" has created was whether or not it could be called art.

    Seriously, she is trash.

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  • [–] 18 points 10 months ago (10 children)

    All art is subjective, imo. Just because you didn't like what she was doing musically doesn't mean it's automatically bad. Also, I think art that prompts a discussion around whether it's art or not is very, very important.

    That said, I can't comment on her character, so I'll have to take your word on it that she was crappy to Lennon's kid / the people around her.

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  • [–] 7 points 10 months ago*

    When you’re interrupting your husband and Chuck Berry singing together by screeching into an adjacent mic impromptu when your only job was to play tambourine, your “art” is objectively bad.

    And her reprehensible treatment of Lennon’z son is well documented, you can Google it.

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  • [–] 5 points 10 months ago* (1 child)

    All art is subjective, imo. Just because you didn't like what she was doing musically doesn't mean it's automatically bad

    If art is subjective, then that's exactly what it means. Their subjective experience is that they didn't like it, so to them it's bad. And you're in no position to argue with someone's opinion on a subjective topic.

    Edit: they're/ their

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  • [–] 5 points 10 months ago

    I agree with you, but so does the person you're responding to. I think you're missing the semantic argument they were making that criticized the absolutist language used to describe Yoko's artistic endeavors. They were highlighting that the term "objectively garbage" was in reference to something inherently subjective.

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  • [–] 7 points 10 months ago (1 child)

    Taking a shit in a zip lock bag, or duct taping a banana to a wall is not art.

    It's fucking lazy, pretentious, bullshit.

    A literal circle jerk.

    Not everything has to be Monet or Robert Frost, but there HAS to be a vehicle of creation, a filter passing through the artist.

    Screaming obnoxious sounds and saying it is singing, or placing a random object on a surface is not art or commentery, ESPECIALLY when the discussion is focused on "what is art".

    Art can be proactive, controversial, or just a simple expression. But it has to have a purpose outside of "is it art?".

    Otherwise everyone claiming AI slop is not art, is a hypocrite.

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  • [–] 2 points 10 months ago

    Taking a shit in a zip lock bag, or duct taping a banana to a wall is not art.

    The fact that you're upset about this kind of art means it's working :)

    It’s fucking lazy, pretentious, bullshit.

    You don't know the thought process that lead to it.


    Now where did I put those ziplock bags?

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  • [–] 7 points 10 months ago (3 children)

    If you don’t know much about this person why are you arguing?

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  • [–] 9 points 10 months ago (2 children)

    Because I think it's ridiculous to dismiss someone for having "bad art" when I don't really think that's a thing. I got no stake in the game, be upset about Yoko Ono if you want, but her art gets people talking and I think that's worth something.

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  • [–] 8 points 10 months ago (1 child)

    LMAO, there's no "bad art"? Ever saw a Hitler painting, Liefield's pouches, or a conservative movie production?

    Saying "there's no bad art" is like saying there's no objectively bad tasting stuff. Which there is.

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  • [–] 8 points 10 months ago (11 children)

    She rode the coat tails of someone who was an actual artist and the only discussion her "art" has created was whether or not it could be called art.

    Who was this person? She performed Cut Piece in 1964 and '65 and didn't even meet John Lennon until '66.

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  • [–] 6 points 10 months ago (7 children)

    Her exposure and access skyrocketed after she got with John Lennon.

    Implying that she somehow made a name solely on her own merits is not even disingenuous l, it's blatant bullshit.

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  • [–] -5 points 10 months ago (6 children)

    If it wasn't part of a pattern of misogyny, it'd be cute how confidently and blatantly wrong you are while being completely uninformed.

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  • [–] 3 points 10 months ago (4 children)

    Here we go. Any criticism of a woman, no matter how justified, is met with charges of misogyny. Just like any criticism of the Gaza Genocide gets framed as anti-Semitism.

    If such a lame defense strategy is all you've got, then you've lost the argument.

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  • [–] -1 points 10 months ago (3 children)

    You got this narrative from somewhere other than reality and swallow it whole in complete disregard for evidence. The simplest explanation is you are willing to devour a blatantly false misogynistic narrative that attributes Yoko Ono's success to a subsequent relationship with a man.

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  • [–] -2 points 10 months ago (2 children)

    You don't know me at all, but you claim to know exactly why I feel the way I feel about Yoko, and conclude with no evidence at all that I have grasped for some misogynistic fable. Your entire assumption that I have swallowed some narrative other than the truth is a LIE.

    I have never disparaged her art, or her life as an artist, even though I do find her art to be shallow. Equally, my dislike of Yoko Ono has nothing to do with her being a woman. Linda Eastman has often been accused as being just as disruptive and destructive to the Beatles as Yoko, yet I don't hold her in the same negative regard. My ENTIRE dislike of Yoko Ono stems from ONE thing: her extremely poor treatment of Julian Lennon, both during his John's life, and especially after.

    Her abhorrent treatment of him is nearly legendary. She cut off Julian from any inheritance, even though she is a billionaire, and he eventually had to sue her, and got a decent settlement. When he asked for some of his father's letters, she forced him to buy them at auction like anyone else. She has been shitty to him for his entire life, referring to him as John's "mistake" child, while Sean was the official Lennon offspring.

    But go ahead and blame it on misogyny, even though nobody thinks the same of Linda, and not the fact that she has been a really awful person for as long as we've known her.

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  • [–] 1 point 10 months ago (1 child)

    Implying that she somehow made a name solely on her own merits is not even disingenuous l, it’s blatant bullshit.

    I have never disparaged her art, or her life as an artist

    The first isn't you, but for some reason you feel the need to continue that thread white-knighting for a blatantly false misogynistic narrative of Yoko Ono's life as an artist. That wasn't for you, but you inserted yourself into it. Well, if the shoe fits you so well, I guess you're welcome to wear it.

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  • [–] 0 points 10 months ago (2 children)

    Nobody gives a shit about what she did before she met Lennon.

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  • [–] -2 points 10 months ago (1 child)

    You lack everything that would be needed to backhandedly insult your misogyny with how what she did before meeting Lennon was why Lennon gave a shit about her.

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  • [–] -1 points 10 months ago

    The fact that you smell misogyny where I just ridicule a shitty human being, it's why love social media 🥰 Stay vigilant. You're in that league.

    Nobody gives a fuck why Lennon was interested in her. Keep defending this wretched disgusting example of a shitty mother. It suits you.

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    [–] 9 points 10 months ago* (2 children)
  • [–] 5 points 10 months ago (1 child)

    The only thing she’s done that put a smile on my face. I laugh every time I see Chuck’s look of surprise and annoyance:

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  • [–] 0 points 10 months ago*

    Thank you, I was gonna post this, but got too tired and fell asleep.

    Anyway... yeah, you can see Chuck just get fucking furious for a moment... poor Chuck...

    As he might say: "Good golly miss Molly."

    (Yes I know he didn't write that song, but he did cover it.)

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  • [–] 17 points 10 months ago (1 child)

    Same reason I love Jane Fonda

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  • [+] 18 points 10 months ago (1 child)
  • [–] 11 points 10 months ago

    If you like some asshole entirely because other people find that asshole assholey, what does that make you?

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  • [–] 8 points 10 months ago

    She is a complete POS. Just look at how she treated her step son.

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  • [–] 13 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago) (5 children)

    Just because something sucked, doesn’t mean it was a troll. Because while you may not know this-

    She wasn’t trolling.

    And that’s why people fucking hate her.

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  • [+] [S] -17 points 10 months ago (5 children)
  • [–] 2 points 10 months ago (2 children)

    😂 I keep seeing your bizarre comments... Are you okay? Did something happen over the holidays?

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  • [+] [S] -1 points 10 months ago (2 children)
  • [–] 2 points 10 months ago (1 child)

    That literally has nothing to do with enjoying the end of year holidays. They may originate from Christian stuff, but a majority of the popular stuff is not christian at all.

    If you don't celebrate though then maybe have a happy Ramadan and Eid al-fitr when it comes around in a few months? Just guessing from the Arabic name.

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  • [+] [S] 2 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago) (1 child)
  • [–] 1 point 10 months ago

    It doesn't come as a surprise. Hence why I said have a good Eid in a few months instead of now. Don't think my comment warranted the condescending snark but w/e.

    I lived in the middle east for a time but I'm still not great at distinguishing Persian from Arabic at a glance. Sorry for the mistake.

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    [–] 8 points 10 months ago

    Subjectiveness of art aside she's just a garbage person. Troll or not, whatever.

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  • [–] 8 points 10 months ago (2 children)

    It depends where you live. All the boomers around me know about the Beatles, way less than John Lenon was a member of the band, and no one knows who Yoko Ono was.

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  • [–] 6 points 10 months ago

    I am sorry, but where could that be?
    I would understand if not everyone knew Beatles there, that would be in sync with later statements. But "everybody knows, but doesn't know the details" is quite weird.

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  • [–] 2 points 10 months ago

    Is your definition of boomers "members of the baby boomer generation born between 1946 and 1964", or is it "everyone more than 5 years older than me"?

    Or do you not live somewhere in the anglosphere?

    I'm not saying everyone born and raised in the anglosphere between '47 and '64 know who John Lennon and Yoko Ono are, but almost all of them do.

    The Beatles and the events surrounding them are among the foremost cultural touchstones of that generation.

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  • [–] 6 points 10 months ago (5 children)

    ... this appears to actually be a fairly popular/uncontroversial opinion/take, lol.

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  • [+] [S] -2 points 10 months ago (5 children)
  • [–] 1 point 10 months ago*

    ... I more or less went by 'pro Yoko' and 'anti Yoko' comments, and then compared total updoots vs down doots.

    That's why I said 'fairly' as opposed to 'very' or 'extremely'.

    Just some napkin math, based on my own subjective interpretation/classification of the comments.

    Extremely not scientific.

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  • [–] 0 points 10 months ago (3 children)

    What gives you that grotesque impression?

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  • [+] [S] 3 points 10 months ago (3 children)
  • [–] 1 point 10 months ago (1 child)

    "spit hate on a 92 year old woman "

    Her age is irrelevant. Her actions and history are what are being judged.

    "despite her being famous before they met "

    Debatable. She was known, but hardly famous.

    "By the way John Lennon is a major, grade A asshole too "

    Cool. Wasn't the subject of the post, but moreover many things can be true at once.

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    [–] 10 points 10 months ago (3 children)

    I'm kind of just ambivalent toward her. I don't think she deserves the hate that she gets. Her and John were clearly in love, so who the fuck am I to question that?

    Her role in the breakup of the Beatles is absolutely blown out of proportion as well. They were already falling apart by that point, and if it hadn't been Yoko, it would have been someone/something else.

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    [–] 4 points 10 months ago

    I learned recently that Yoko Ono was a huge inspiration for the B-52's. Apparently John Lennon once heard them playing (before they broke out in fame) and immediately recognized her style in their music.

    I thought it was an interesting bit of trivia.

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  • [–] 2 points 10 months ago

    She had frizzy hair.

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