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[–] 242 points 11 months ago (13 children)

Even if that did happen, it wouldn't defeat the point of the disclosures at all. In fact, people will appreciate it all the more if a game is made without any AI involvement and it will become a selling point.

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  • [–] 101 points 11 months ago (1 child)

    Plus, shouldn’t he want that information to be front and center anyway if he actually thinks it’s a good thing?

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  • [–] 49 points 11 months ago

    He, like the that Microsoft suit, has just enough awareness to realize how AI is being thought of by the general public, and knows it would affect his bottom line. Which is really all he cares about.

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  • [+] -7 points 11 months ago (5 children)

    At a very near point though, it's likely going to be impossible to do it without AI involvement, or at the very least without proving you didn't somehow.

    AI is being baked into almost every dev and art tool. They aren't just talking about using ChatGPT, if your game uses a single texture or model that ever got touched by a machine learning algorithm, you're using AI.

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  • [–] 30 points 11 months ago (4 children)

    As long as AI doesn't take away our hands, it'll always be perfectly possible to draw our own art, compose our own music and write our own code. And especially in the open-source space, there's plenty of creative software not jumping on the AI bandwagon.

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  • [–] 4 points 11 months ago (3 children)

    It's becoming nearly impossible to write code in a corporate environment without AI. Everyone has AI auto complete at the minimum, and AI code generation is at a point where it's at least even with an entry level dev.

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  • [–] 7 points 11 months ago

    I'm sure that's the case at some companies, but where I work, I can freely choose which tools I use for coding and whether or not to use AI, despite one of my bosses being obsessed with it.

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  • [–] 121 points 11 months ago (2 children)

    I'm glad that Tim Sweeny and its Epig Games Store is not the market leader.

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  • [–] 57 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago) (8 children)

    If most games will contain AI content, then an "AI-free" badge couldn't be more important. He must understand that that statement is a complete logical fallacy, right?

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  • [+] -9 points 11 months ago (6 children)

    Except every tool used for development is going to have some level of AI in it and unless you are also building your own AI free tool you aren't going to know what's truly AI free. AI is here and the cat's out of the bag. There is no putting it back in at this point. We as a society need to figure out how to use it ethically.

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  • [–] 14 points 11 months ago*

    We as a society need to figure out how to use it ethically.

    We can't even restrain ourselves on the usage of weapons, the extraction of natural resources, the usage of energy, consumerism, or cars. The way our societies are working will not give much chance to ethics.

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  • [–] 3 points 11 months ago

    What I consider sad is that we are really getting no option to run it locally. It's an excuse to turn everything into a live service where not even a subscription saves you because you can run out of "tokens" now. I have absolutely no issue with OSS tools incorporating LocalLLM aids. If people have modern GPUs then they can use local LLMs in some form or another.

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  • [–] 2 points 11 months ago (1 child)

    LLMs are actually just massively improved spell checks. If you've used an IDE with in line error detection, technically that's AI now.

    I do wish we've drawn the line more clearly on what "AI" usage means in terms of "this game was made with AI"

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  • [–] 4 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago)

    Every single time I think about what LLM are I think about this quote from the game Night in the Woods:

    “We're good at drawing lines through the spaces between stars like we're pattern-finders, and we'll find patterns and we like really put our hearts and minds into it and even if we don't mean to.”

    LLMs are based on neural networks. They are little brains that have nothing else to deal with than finding patterns in our own logic and can seem to be smarter than what they really are because of it. Evolution has not weighted them with an ego or urgency, but because it has been trained on ours it can sometimes emulate it. But it fundamentally lacks the complexity of our brains, at least for now. It is still amazing what they can do given so little, and it is amazing how convincing they can be with their answers when they are completely wrong. It is a viral form of intelligence.

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  • [–] -1 points 11 months ago (1 child)

    As if down voting me is going to make the AI problem go away. Lemmy baffles me. People on here are the most pro FOSS but luddites at the same time when it comes to AI.

    There is no going back from anyone this. We are gonna have to figure out how to live with the consequences of AI. We should be making a lot more noise about AI to law makers. It's coming for all of our jobs now matter what sector you work in. At some point people are going to have to accept it and make the best of it.

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  • [–] 55 points 11 months ago

    We're seeing the rise of push back against AI gen stuff... https://www.theverge.com/entertainment/827650/indie-developers-gen-ai-nexon-arc-raiders

    Doubling down on the glazing of the ai bubble is pretty on brand for him. In before "tim sues steam for spurious claims against ai" or some other bullshit.

    Sidenote: IsThereAnyDeal.com has the steam ai declarations as part of the quick reference section on game pages now. https://mastodon.social/@isthereanydeal/115606686918493913

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  • [–] 53 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago) (1 child)

    If it's available in "nearly all" development then you can switch the tag to say "no AI" and then I can continue discovering and buying games that don't have that BS.

    But we all know, as does Sweeney, that that's a lie. And also that I wouldn't shop for games on Epic Store anyway, for reasons just like this.

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  • [–] 44 points 11 months ago (2 children)

    Tim continues to not 'read the room'

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  • [–] 40 points 11 months ago

    Then put the disclaimer in all games? So what, not like they're limited quantity

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  • [–] 40 points 11 months ago (3 children)

    Yes, like we don't have Handmade tags in products...

    I dont know about the future, but a "No AI-Art" tag, makes sense to me.

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  • [–] 4 points 11 months ago (2 children)

    I have seen handmade tags, for stuff that wasn't machine loomed, etc. But handmade clothing is mostly dead in the consumer world, unless you class mass production methods as handmade.. Which they are made by hands in some stage

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  • [–] 4 points 11 months ago (1 child)

    Handmade clothes may be not the norm but they are not extinct. Dresses, scarfs and accesorising can be found handmade. Luxury market is in majority handmade.

    The point is that the label is not pointless. It exist and will exist in the future. I just hope that games with human art won't be considered a luxury.

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  • [–] 34 points 11 months ago

    This is just one of many examples on why epic is inferior

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  • [–] 34 points 11 months ago (6 children)

    yea that's just playing on semantics. Of course machine learning will keep assisting many different workflows, thank you Tim.
    Go ahead with your ML-assisted procedural animations, your ML-enhanced denoising, your ML-powered stochastic mesh pruning.

    What people don't want is generated visuals/music that try and pass off as art. I'd love to summon debility to explain that the ruling class doesn't get it, but they do -it's a convenient way for them to save on human labor that is also... just too tempting to use for replacing art as well.

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  • [–] 7 points 11 months ago

    "it's a convenient way for them to-" insert: exploit all culture, our past and present artists, writers, musicians, etc. . . The offense is utterly incomprehensible. Its like the billion dollar relativity thingy, where you just can't get over the relative size of the comparison to $100,000. The amount of data stolen from past and current IP is too much for the layman to ever consider. It's the heist of the epoch.

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  • [–] 4 points 11 months ago (4 children)

    AI generated visuals and music are one thing, but one use of AI in that category is giving NPCs actually interesting things to say.

    Currently, without AI, they have one or two lines about the weather, or the general state of affairs, but if you can pass an LLM the current state of the world and the player's recent actions, then run the output through a tts model tuned to a distinct voice to, you'd be making the world feel way deeper than it is now with much more insightful interactions. You could maybe go even further and add infinite mini-quests in a similar manner, but it's better to start off small.

    AI doesn't have to replace, and the best studios will use it to enhance and add to their art, the average ones will avoid it, and the worst ones will use it to replace art.

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  • [–] 3 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago) (3 children)

    And who's going to be powering that NPC's LLM model? Unless all you want is a free hotlinked chatbot window disguised as a character? Because the publishers and developers sure as hell won't power it on their end and if they do you'll be paying out the ass for it. Otherwise that LLM for an NPC will have to run locally on your own hardware....in addition to the game itself.

    So yeah, have fun with that.

    And dialogue generation is ALL they can do btw. They can't navigate a character around a 3d environment or even play against you in a grand strategy game. So, looking at RAM and GPU prices... yeah the novelty of LLM in games will run it's course pretty quick.

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  • [–] 32 points 11 months ago

    And wonder why Steam is succeeded but Epic is an AI slop wasteland

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  • [–] 64 points 11 months ago (3 children)

    Sugars and additives are in nearly all foods, maybe we should stop asking manufacturers to disclose it on the ingredients list.

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  • [–] 28 points 11 months ago

    They make sense because we don't want your AI shit Sweeney

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  • [–] 27 points 11 months ago (2 children)

    Tim: Valve doesn't understand the market. AI is going to lead gaming industry.

    Also Tim: VALVE IS A MONOPOLY AND SHOULD SEIZE TO EXIST.

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  • [–] 20 points 11 months ago

    These guys live in a bubble, huffing each others’ farts

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  • [–] 19 points 11 months ago

    It is useful to know what games i want to avoid and boycott.

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  • [–] 18 points 11 months ago (1 child)

    Tim can suck my sweaty balls.

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  • [–] 16 points 11 months ago

    More info = good.

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  • [–] 16 points 11 months ago

    It being ubiquitous does not mean it makes no sense. They can still say how and to what extent gen AI was used.

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  • [–] 31 points 11 months ago (3 children)

    And people wonder why Epic games has the smallest market share of all the game stores

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  • [–] 14 points 11 months ago

    Tim Sweeny doesn't understand the very people he wants to have give him money. Like, at all.

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  • [–] 14 points 11 months ago

    I guess I won't be buying nearly all games.

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  • [–] 14 points 11 months ago

    Epic CEO [Tim Sweeney] is an idiot

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  • [–] 25 points 11 months ago

    Never buy another Epic game again, understood!

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  • [–] 35 points 11 months ago

    And CEOs will be the easiest position to replace with AI. Can't wait for the share holders to figure that out.

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  • [–] 24 points 11 months ago (3 children)

    Then some clueless person complains that Steam dominates the market. When Epic is constantly shooting their foot.

    People like to make informed decisions and those labels help. In proper countries even beer have content labels to say if there is rice or corn with the barley.

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  • [–] 3 points 11 months ago (1 child)

    One can be concerned by a monopoly even when there are no bad actors. Google used to be good before it was evil, and Gabe Newell will die eventually. Consolidation of market power (Audible for audiobooks, for instance, or Steam for video games) is not ideal. It is a shame Epic is such a piece of shit.

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  • [–] 12 points 11 months ago

    Indeed, but shoving Steam under the bus, instead of critiquing their "rivals" for their lack of consumer-friendly alternatives, when for the most part they're just doing their best seems counterintuitive.

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  • [–] 12 points 11 months ago (1 child)

    nahh men. This is why you (Epic) are giving away games every week for free. Nobody likes you

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  • [–] 5 points 11 months ago

    Even giving out great games for free doesn't make Epic more likeable. That is a next level failure.

    If anything, other companies need to do the same as Valve does to gain respect and popularity. But, here we are.

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  • [–] 23 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago) (4 children)

    "Crypto/NFT disclosures make no sense, because all games will become "Play to Earn" and have NFT objects where you can transfer your Mario hat to COD 2028."

    I am being glib, Sweeney probably has a point, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't take a critical look at his intentions.

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  • [–] 2 points 11 months ago (3 children)
  • [–] 22 points 11 months ago

    Wannabe American oligarch.

    The things he allegedly argues against (Apple/Google app store restrictions) is what he would implement (word for word copy/paste arguments) if he was in their position.

    Typical corrupt scum.

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  • [–] 11 points 11 months ago

    Bad title, he's not an epic CEO at all.

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  • [–] 19 points 11 months ago (1 child)

    This is why Epic is losing lol

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  • [–] 9 points 11 months ago*

    No, it fucking won't, Tim Sweeney. Go jump off the OG Fortnite BR map so I can default dance on you while you get sent back to the lobby.

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  • [–] 21 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago)

    Using AI for checking a code, and then double checking it yourself is different than some waste of sperm dictating prompts to AI, and telling his friends at parties while high on ketamine adderol and coke "this is going to be the next Morrowind x Cyberpunk x Mario Brother Kart Theft Auto" is the AI badge Valve is talking about.

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  • [–] 7 points 11 months ago (1 child)

    Depends on how it's used.

    Right now it's used to replace skilled workers, be them artists, actors, or programmers.

    I can certainly think of a few good uses for AI in games, but to a Corpo CEO "good use" = wider profit margins at the cost of humanity. And so we need to be informed about such things when we spend money on something that is by all rights an artform.

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  • [–] 4 points 11 months ago

    The problem is that the very capabilities that let a game have "way more of something than it could otherwise have" (say, thousands of unique voices reading context-specific runtime generated text) can be used to reduce the need for workers (so one can just pretty much generate all speech in game by paying a bunch of random people of the street for to come over and read text for 1h and then just clone their voices and used that to generate all in-game speech - the quality way less than pre-prepared lines read by a trained voice actor, but the cost will be a tiny fraction of it).

    AI can helps us do things which in practice would otherwise be impossible but many (maybe most) companies are just using it to cut manpower costs even though it delivers inferior results than than trained professionals.

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  • [–] 7 points 11 months ago (1 child)

    I've said this before that typically people don't know what they are talking about AI, but I don't expect this from people who SHOULD know what AI is.

    There could be technologies that AI can assist with, hell I'm not a game dev but I assume even back in the day, devs used tricks and technologies that today could be considered as AI

    However AI as in it will write you code, generate you a game and write you a story? Hell no.

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  • [–] 0 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago)

    Yes, nuance is important

    but
    I'd argue that demanding the customer seller fill out a 20 page form on what the AI was used for (and additionally which model) would result in the opposite sentiment for the seller and customer.
    Theres a line between too little and too much information.

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  • [–] 12 points 11 months ago

    Sweeney is not very smart, is he?

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  • [–] 12 points 11 months ago

    Super effective slop filter you say? Sign me the fuck up!

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  • [–] 6 points 11 months ago (1 child)

    As a CEO you can decide whether to piss off on what your potential consumers demand and don't. Obviously, there's a reason why the EGS is in the shitty place it is and Steam isn't. EGS focuses on developers and publishers even when it means pissing on consumers. Steam might have spearled modern DRM "subscription"-based marketplaces, but they've also continued to cater to consumer demands even when it opposed their interests and they could have chosen to ignore them anyway.

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  • [–] 6 points 11 months ago

    He is funded by tencent. Of course he will push ai.

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  • [–] 5 points 11 months ago

    Lucky for them, I won't buy any new games. Too many fantastic older games to play that they didn't cheat and cut corners to produce.

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  • [–] 5 points 11 months ago

    Yes but we all know that Tim is a bit of an idiot.

    We've all seen AI made games, they are awful. Terrible optimisation (often not optimised at all), programming mistakes that first year junior wouldn't make, glitchy looking art and basic gameplay because AI cannot be original.

    Yeah I'm sure they're really going to take off.

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  • [–] 11 points 11 months ago

    Steam is my favourite multi-billion dollar monopoly 😌

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  • [–] 4 points 11 months ago

    And they'll become cheaper as they undoubtedly sack their talent, right?

    I think if I buy a game under the pretext of it being entirely "man-made", in 2026. If it then turns out to have been partially AI produced in 2030, I should have the right to earn a refund, even if I 100% it.

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