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[+] -67 points 11 months ago (37 children)

Does this specify the kinds of AI? Are none of these devs using code completion on their IDEs? Or refactoring tools? Because the bulk of them use AI these says.

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  • [–] 53 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago) (1 child)

    The seal looks like this:

    Code completion is probably a gray area.

    Those models generally have much smaller context windows, so the energy concern isn’t quite as extreme.

    You could also reasonably make a claim that the model is legally in the clear as far as licensing, if the training data was entirely open source (non-attribution, non-share-alike, and commercial-allowed) licensed code. (A big “if”)

    All of that to say: I don’t think I would label code-completion-using anti-AI devs as hypocrites. I think the general sentiment is less “what the technology does” and more “who it does it to”. Code completion, for the most part, isn’t deskilling labor, or turning experts into chatbot-wrangling accountability sinks.

    Like, I don’t think the Luddites would’ve had a problem with an artisan using a knitting frame in their own home. They were too busy fighting against factories locking children inside for 18-hour shifts, getting maimed by the machines or dying trapped in a fire. It was never the technology itself, but the social order that was imposed through the technology.

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  • [–] 59 points 11 months ago (13 children)

    Even yesteryear's code completion systems (that didn't rely on LLMs) are technically speaking, AI systems.

    While the term "AI" became the next "crypto" or "Blockchain", in reality we've been using various AI products for the better part of the past 30 years.

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  • [–] 50 points 11 months ago (3 children)

    We used to call the code that determined NPC behaviour AI.

    It wasn’t AI as we know it now but it was intended to give vaguely realistic behaviour (such as taking a sensible route from A to B).

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  • [–] 16 points 11 months ago (6 children)

    You mean code completion that just parses a file into an AST and does fuzzy string matching against tokens used to build that AST? I would not personally classify that as AI. It's code that was written by humans and is perfectly understandable by humans. There is no probabilistic component present, there is no generated matrix, there's no training process, it's just simple parsing and string matching.

    It's early and I'm tired and probably in a poor mood and being needlessly fussy, so I apologize if this completely misses the point of your comment. I agree that there's other stuff we've been using for ages which could be reasonably classified as "AI," but I don't feel like traditional code completion systems fit there.

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  • [–] 12 points 11 months ago (5 children)

    AI doesn't have to be probabilistic, a classical computer science definition of AI states that it has to be an actor that reacts to some percepts according to some policy

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  • [–] 3 points 11 months ago (4 children)

    By that definition a calculator is AI.

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  • [–] 2 points 11 months ago (3 children)

    yes we could definitely say that a calculator, technically, is an AI. but we usually don't think of the calculator as an agent, and it doesn't really make any decisions, as it just displays the result when prompted

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  • [–] 2 points 11 months ago (2 children)

    That's my point. These random definitions of AI that have been come up with by the most pedantic people in existence are not in any way helpful. We should ignore them.

    They seek to redefine AI as basically anything that a computer does. This is entirely unhealthful and is only happening because they need to be right on the internet.

    These irritating idiots need to go away for they serve no purpose.

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  • [–] 0 points 11 months ago (1 child)

    but that's not a redefinition, it was originally defined that way, like back in the 60s, by the people who started this field of research. I think a calculator is a bit of an absurd example, but an NPC that pathfinds towards the player to attack them is still AI, no matter how you look at it

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  • [–] 2 points 11 months ago*

    People who lived in the 1960s did not by definition live in the 21st century so their definitions of what things may or may not be is immaterial.

    We know what we mean by AI, and attempting to redefine that in the service of some kind of all "sides have a point" fence sitter, is a brainless arguement and is is definitively unhelpful. Defining AI strictly by "a definition of a system that does a thing based on an input", is both overly broad and demonstrably unhelpful. It's like arguing that a building that has been reduced to ash by a fire still contains the same constituent elements. Intellectually it's correct, practically it's ridiculous.

    Broadly, you are attempting to define a eye as anything that any computerised system does. How can you not see that that is an overly broad definition that entirely skirts anything remotely close to the realms of helpfulness.

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  • [–] 11 points 11 months ago

    Personally speaking I don't care at all about dev tools, as they have always been used. Vibe coding does bother me though - if you don't know HOW to code, you probably shouldn't be doing it.

    The real issue though is using AI generated assets. If you have a game that uses human made art, story, and music, no one is going to complain about you using AI. Even if you somehow managed to get there via vibe coding.

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  • [–] 37 points 11 months ago* (16 children)

    I'm sure everyone has always explained this to you given the number of down votes, but algorithms aren't equal to AI.

    Ever since the evolution of AI people seem to have lost the ability to recall things prior to 2019.

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  • [+] -9 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago) (7 children)

    I mean doesn't it heavily depend what you refer to as AI?

    ML algorithms, come very close to LLMs and have been back in the day refered to as AI. They are also used in code completion.

    Also both of these are algorithms, but with weights defined by data input.

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  • [–] 2 points 11 months ago (2 children)

    If something uses a lot of if else statements to do stuff like become a "COM" player in a game, it is called an Expert System.
    That is what is essentially in game "AI" used to be. That was not an LLM.

    Stuff like clazy and clang-tidy are neither ML nor LLM.
    They don't rely on curve fitting or mindless grouping of data-points.
    Parameters in them are decided, based on the programming language specification and tokenisation is done directly using the features of the language. How the tokens are used, is also determined by hard logic, rather than fuzzy logic and that is why, the resultant options you get in the completion list, end up being valid syntax for said language.


    Now if you are using Cursor for code completion, of course that is AI.
    It is not programmed using features of the language, but iterated until it produces output that matches what would match the features of the language.

    It is like putting a billion monkeys in front of a typewriter and then selecting one that make something Shakespeare-ish, then killing off all the others. Then cloning the selected one and rinse and repeat.

    And that is why it takes a stupendously disproportionate amount of energy, time and money to train something that gives an output that could otherwise be easily done better using a simple bash script.

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  • [–] 2 points 11 months ago* (1 child)

    To be honest, I feel like what you describe in the second part (the monkey analogy) is more of a genetic algorithm than a machine learning one, but I get your point.

    Quick side note, I wasn't at all including a discussion about energy consumption and in that case ML based algorithms, whatever form they take, will mostly consume more energy (assuming not completely inefficient "classical" algorithms). I do admit, I am not sure how much more (especially after training), but at least the LLMs with their large vector/matrix based approaches eat a lot (I mean that in the case for cross-checking tokens in different vectors or such). Non LLM, ML, may be much more power efficient.

    My main point, however, was that people only remember AI from ~2022 and forgot about things from before (e.g. non LLM, ML algorithms) that were actively used in code completion. Obviously, there are things like ruff, clang-tidy (as you rightfully mentioned) and more that can work without and machine learning. Although, I didn't check if there literally is none, though I assume it.

    On the point of game "AI", as in AI opponents, I wasn't talking of that at all (though since deep mind, they did tend to be a bit more ML based also, and better at games, see Starcraft 2, instead of cheating only to get an advantage)

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  • [–] 1 point 11 months ago

    Yeah, my main point with all those examples was to put the point that "AI" always has been a marketing term.

    Curve-fitting and data-point clustering are both pretty efficient if used for the thing they are made for. But if you then start brute-forcing multiple nodes of the same thing just to get a semblance of something else, that is otherwise not what it is made for, of course you will end up using a lot of energy.


    We humans have it pretty hard. Our brain is pretty illogical. We then generate multiple layers of abstractions make a world view, trying to match the world we live in. Over those multiple layers, comes a semblance of logic.
    Then we make machine.

    We make machines to be inherently logical and that makes it better at logical operations than us humans. Hence calculators.
    Now someone comes and says - let's make an abstraction layer on top of the machine to represent illogical behaviour (kinda like our brains).
    (┛`Д´)┛彡┻━┻

    And then on top of that, they want that illogical abstract machine to itself create abstractions inside it to be able to first mimic human output and then further to do logical stuff. All of that, just so one can mindlessly feed data into it to "train" it, instead of think themselves and feed it proper logic.

    This is like saying they want to install an OS on browser WASM and then install a web browser inside that OS, to do the same thing that they would have otherwise done with the original browser.

    In the monkeys analogy, you can add that the monkeys are a simulation on a computer.

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  • [–] 3 points 11 months ago (1 child)

    You seriously misunderstand what the acronyms you're using refer to. I'd suggest some reading before commenting, next time.

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  • [–] 0 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago)

    How so? A Large Language Model is usually a transformer based approach nowadays, right (correct me if outdated)?

    AI is artificial intelligence, which has been used and abused for many different things, none of which are intelligent right now (among others used for machine learning).

    Machine learning is based on linear algebra like linear regression or other methods depending what you want to do.

    An algorithm is by definition anything that follows a recipe so to say.

    All of these things, bare transformers and newer in development approaches like spiked neural networks or liquid neural networks are fairly basic, no?

    EDIT: typos

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  • [–] 0 points 11 months ago (1 child)

    No because AI replaces a human role.

    Code completion does not replace a human role, that's like saying that spell check is AI.

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  • [–] 3 points 11 months ago*

    I am not talking about what it does, I am talking about what it is.

    And all tools do tend to replace human labor. For example, tractors replaced many farmhands.

    The thing we face nowadays, and this is by no means limited to things like AI, is that less jobs are created by new tools than old destroyed (in my earlier simile, a tractor needs mechanics and such).

    The definition of something is entirely disconnected from its usage (mainly).

    And just because everyone calls LLMs now AI, there are plenty of scientific literature and things that have been called AI before. As of now, as it boils down all of these are algorithms.

    The thing with machine learning is just that it is an algorithm that fine tunes itself (which is often blackbox-ish btw). And strictly speaking LLMs, commonly refered to as AI, are a subclass of ML with new technology.

    I make and did not make any statement of the values of that technology or my stance on it

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  • [–] -5 points 11 months ago (7 children)

    But these tools are not mere algorithms or ML products, they are LLM backed

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  • [–] 1 point 11 months ago (6 children)

    Emmet has been around since 2015. So it was definitely not LLM backed.

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  • [–] -2 points 11 months ago (5 children)

    My friend, nobody says all of them are LLM backed, but some are

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  • [–] 1 point 11 months ago* (4 children)

    I'm saying that code completion does not constitute AI and certainly isn't LLMs.

    I then provided an example of why that isn't the case.

    You decided to respond to this by pointing out that some LLM may be involved in some code completion. Although you didn't provide an example, so who knows if that's actually true, it seems sort of weird to use in LLM for code completion as it's completely unnecessary and entirely inefficient, so I kind of doubt it.

    I just want to point it out for a minute, because it's sort of feels like you don't know this, code completion is basically autocomplete for programmers. It's doing basic string matching, so that if you type fnc it also completes to function(), hardly the stuff of AI

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  • [–] 1 point 11 months ago (3 children)
  • [–] 2 points 11 months ago* (2 children)

    JetBrains is offering it in their IDEs as well and they are big. You're right that it's becoming very common now, and it is LLM based.

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  • [–] 1 point 11 months ago (1 child)

    That's not what we're talking about.

    The assertion was that even text completion constitutes AI. Which is a mad claim because if you're going to say that text completion is AI then basically everything is AI.

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  • [–] 6 points 11 months ago

    I don't consider clang tools to be AI.

    They parse the code logically and don't do blind pattern matching and curve fitting.
    The rules they use are properly defined in code.

    If that was AI, then all compilers made with LLVM would be AI.

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  • [+] -60 points 11 months ago (15 children)
  • [–] 89 points 11 months ago*

    When everyone else is selling poison, selling something actually edible is a pretty good move.

    AI free art (aka theft free art) is like cruelty free cotton. A lot of people do, and should, care.

    You tout a 80 dollar price, entirely ignoring that indie games are often sub-40. Nice ragebait.

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  • [–] 61 points 11 months ago (5 children)

    Lmao what is this comment?

    Are you really conflating the idea that people want art made by people with racism and hard-right politics?

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  • [–] 31 points 11 months ago (3 children)

    Well Hitler was a painter, checkmate liberals.

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  • [–] 6 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago)

    I actually got doxing/threats of physical violence here on lemmy for pushing back on idiots claiming being against AI was like being racist, these people are insufferable and no matter what they think their intentions are, the consequences of their ideology is a sweeping under the rug of actual injustice, systematic prejudice and violence.

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  • [–] 32 points 11 months ago (5 children)
  • [+] -25 points 11 months ago (4 children)

    Y'all don't realize how much of a bubble you're in on the anti - AI front, the vast majority of normies are catching on and use genAI

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  • [–] 15 points 11 months ago (1 child)

    "Normies" are idiots. They're the same people denying the efficacy of vaccines or the veracity of the moon landing. What they do should NOT be used to validate the correctness of something.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 month ago* (1 child)

    Republican candidates are turning against data centers because AI is unpopplar.

    Yes, it's partially the local impact of data centers, but AI offers horns to the issue not a halo.

    Edit: Oh, how thing have changed in 9 months lol

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