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[–] 65 points 1 year ago (1 child)

Finally some politicians with a hint of having a spine and doing what their constituents want.

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  • [–] 27 points 1 year ago* (5 children)

    I don't get how any tech companies think they will incentives citys when they have been shown to deplete almost all water sources wherever they are built. Amazon being a notorious negotiators of tax incentives, they are likely looking for sucker city's.

    Edit. Also, what absolutely massive brain decided one of the hottest states in the us would be a good place to put a building sized heat sink.

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  • [+] 7 points 1 year ago* (last edited 11 months ago) (5 children)
  • [–] 17 points 1 year ago (3 children)

    You could even do district heating. Use the hot water output from the data centre and sell it cheap for piping into appartment blocks for heating.

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  • [–] 8 points 1 year ago

    Too smart for capitalism where cheap > efficient

    It's why a vast majority of buildings in the US are designed without the local climate in mind (ie using passive heating and cooling systems for that climate). They let HVAC handle making the same design hospitable for all regions. It's the lowest cost design and build for the highest sale price. All energy and maintenance costs after sale are the consumer's problem. Relevant podcast episode about how dumb our building designs are due to AC. It has some staggering figures i don't remember offhand.

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    if you're the redhead on the left of this video with the really deep voice, we haven't talked in a while and it's ridiculous that i can recognize you after 15 years. i should call you.

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  • [–] 3 points 1 year ago

    Tucson, Arizonia?

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  • 86 comments in c/technology@lemmy.world view that post
    [–] 211 points 1 year ago (39 children)

    Why the hell are they trying to build data centers in the fucking Sonoran Desert anyway.

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  • [–] 157 points 1 year ago (6 children)

    It's not their water, so they don't care. When it finally runs out, they'll just go somewhere else.

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  • [–] 73 points 1 year ago (4 children)

    I mean, sure, that's their plan, but you can only do that so many times before you run out of money, materials, water, or places to build. If ever there was proof that there's no forward thinking in this tech bubble, this would be it.

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  • [–] 26 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 child)

    True but this isn't specific to the tech bubble. It's a feature of capitalism. Competition forces firms to adopt shorter term horizons. If a firm has significant profit to make by focusing on the short term and it does not, its competitor would. If the profit possoble within this period is significant, having the competitor collect it runs the risk of the current firm failing, or the competitor accumulating enough for hostile takeover, among other failures. That would stop the current firm onwer from collecting profits in the future. Even if focusing on the long term is more profitable over time, firms may not survive in a competitive environment to realize long term profits. These are some of the fundamental processes that drive firms into short term horizons. With liquid asset markets there are even more immediate processes driving firms into short term planning.

    Add to that planning based mainly on prices, which don't capture a ton of reality and you get situations like a water hungry datacenter in the desert, cause the price of water does not capture its long term availability for example.

    All of this has happened in the past, even a century ago. It's happened and keeps happening in other industries too. For example the fossil fuel industry.

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  • [–] 61 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    Low humidity. Good for longevity of electronics, and makes the evaporative cooling more efficient. So it’s a matter of the benefits of that vs. the cost of the added heat.

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  • [–] 29 points 1 year ago (7 children)

    Yeah, seems like a desert isn’t the best place to build something where cooling is a critical factor! Or building something that uses massive amounts of chemical treated water for cooling in a place that has had water scarcity concerns for generations, now.

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  • [–] 13 points 1 year ago (6 children)

    I don't understand why they even need to use up water. Water cooling does not require you to evaporate the water. You can just keep it as a closed system and reuse the water.

    If nuclear power plants can manage it which would be easy for a server farm

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  • [–] 10 points 1 year ago (3 children)

    Closed loop watercooling is really just air cooling with extra steps. The water is heated by the devices and cooled by a large radiator with fans. Or it's cooled with a chiller which in turn is cooled by a radiator with fans.

    Replacing the water is the most effective (yet wasteful) way to remove the heat.

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  • I once saw a spa that was using a liquid cooled bank of computers to heat their pool water. It involves a liquid-to-liquid heat exchanger so they're not pumping chlorinated pool water through their servers but...I wish we did more of that. Server farms are a source of heat, lots of other things need heat.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    To a point, yes. While you’re still using air to cool the water, I think it’s still a little more efficient than blindly keeping the server room at a low-ish temperature.

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  • [–] 6 points 1 year ago

    Keeping the server room cool is just using an air conditioner which is cooled by a radiator with a fan, and then using that cooled air to cool another radiator with a fan. Every step is a loss of efficiency.

    The main advantage of water loops is that you get to use a different form factor for the radiator and fan by moving it away from the source of heat and aren't limited by the case dimensions.

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  • [–] 12 points 1 year ago (15 children)

    They building a new data center in the bay area California that is struggling for water all the time. But its OK they are building it upstream towards the reservoir so they can get first dibs

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  • [–] 3 points 1 year ago (10 children)

    I wonder if they could use sea water for that. I know salt is corrosive, but surely there's a reasonable solution there.

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  • [–] 5 points 1 year ago (3 children)

    I remember there was talks about a floating data center in the ocean.

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  • [–] 3 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    I'd much rather have underwater data centers. A floating data center seems like a massive eyesore and you'd need to run cables out there.

    If you build one underground near the shore and then channel water in from the ocean, it should be much less intrusive.

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  • [–] 6 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    It still has problems. Mainly you need to get power out there and the heated exhaust water can mess with the ecosystem.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    seawater would probably corrode whatever storage system they have in there overtime, all that biological material, chemicals and gunk.

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  • Sure. A lot of that can be filtered out, but there will be corrosion with whatever heat transfer system they use. However, seawater is free, pretty consistently cool temperature (esp. in the Pacific), and is plentiful, so replacing some heat exchange components shouldn't be overly burdensome.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago (3 children)

    It's not like they're dunking the electronics in the water. They just need to filter it enough it doesn't clog up the system and run it in a closed loop.

    If I can have a closed loop with a reservoir for my home PC, motherfucking Amazon can build a water storage tank for their cooling.

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  • Sure, but that means more space to allow for cooling the water so it can be reused. If you can cycle it w/ "unlimited" cool water from the ocean, it can be a lot more compact, and heated waste water could potentially be used by a desalinization plant to improve freshwater output.

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  • [–] 3 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

    Nuclear plants do that with lakes, they suck in cool water from one end and dump out the hot water at the other so that it can cool down by the time it circulates back in

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    What’s it called/who should I look up to learn about this?

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  • [–] 4 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    Its an amazon data center in Gilroy, been in the works for a long time but they recently put up the development signs so I think now that they ran the new water lines a like a year ago they are ready to break ground

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  • [–] 8 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    Said in another comment, our deserts are tectonically stable and free of natural disasters. If you want redundant DCs, picking one on the desert is a good bet.

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  • [–] 5 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    Yeah, all we got is man made tragedy of the commons disasters where the data centers deplete not only the water for humans, but the water for the data centers. Poof, no more data.

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  • [–] 137 points 1 year ago (10 children)

    Good. This whole thing was stupid when the local government and utilities keep telling us little people to conserve water because, well we're in a 113 degree desert with a complete lack of water due to climate change and they wanted to do this bullshit.

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  • [–] 19 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

    Have you tried collecting the condensation off the glass? If you use that to wash your armpits you can go an extra day before you shower so Jeff Bezos can make numbers go up in his theoretical money.

    Edit: "Comical" thought. There is less than $2.5 trillion in cash circulating.

    That wouldn't cover 20 people net worth in a country of near 350,000,000.

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  • [+] -9 points 1 year ago (8 children)

    Bezos has tens of billions, if not hundreds. He could support development of heat-resistant microchips, which would have countless applications.

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  • [–] 13 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    heat-resistant microchips

    Wat

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  • [–] 10 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    Yeah, man, Bezos has tens of billions, if not hundreds! He could support the development of something that breaks the fundamental rules of physics EASILY!

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  • [–] 8 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

    He can go develop me a liquid nitro cooling setup.

    Use so many fans he can power a wind farm

    Shove his servers up his bum

    Honestly i'm fine with any of the above

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  • [–] 6 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    Computers use electricity to do math. The more electricity you have, the more math you can do. In order to do the math, the electricity is handled in a way that outputs heat. Unfortunately, the most reliable, cost effective and plentiful materials that allow electricity to do a lot of math also get heavily impacted by heat.

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  • [–] 29 points 1 year ago (6 children)

    Remember that time that Microsoft sunk a data center in the ocean, proved this was cost effective, was reliable and could scale? And now it's been five years and nothing happened? Yeah that was annoying.

    Anyway their site of glowing press releases is still up for some reason

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  • [–] 23 points 1 year ago (5 children)

    It worked well until there was a component failure, requiring a whole farm to be taken down to replace said failed components. This is why they dropped the project.

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  • [–] 8 points 1 year ago (4 children)

    They didn't think of that when designing this?

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    What do you think research is?

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    you don't need to jump off a building to research gravity...

    the specific issue that is claimed to have made the entire project unviable is easily spotted a mile away

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago*

    How are you going to evaluate long term effects without practical experiments? They clearly have the money and its much easier and efficient to launch a real MVP than to design a complex set of simulations and tests.

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  • [–] 53 points 1 year ago (22 children)

    Why are data centers so thirsty anyway? Can't cooling systems just reuse water in a closed loop?

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  • [–] 85 points 1 year ago* (16 children)

    Evaporative cooling needs less water mass and less surface area for the same cooling effect. They could simply use bigger heat sinks outside the building and have a bigger water cooling system to make it closed loop, but they don't want to do that.

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  • [–] 42 points 1 year ago (14 children)

    Then why the fuck do they keep wanting build them in the middle of the desert then?

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  • [–] 58 points 1 year ago (4 children)

    Cheap land, dry air is good for evaporative cooling, and many arid areas have a surprising amount of ground water. It ultimately comes down to being the cheapest option, not the smartest or best option.

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  • [–] 21 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    So how long to the billionaires have that entire city council replaced with people who are in their pocket and will vote for its passing?

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  • [–] 27 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    In the states? 1-2 years tops.

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  • [–] 22 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

    Trump will have them arrested on terrorism charges in a month...after a totally coincidental delivery of a golden idol to trump, from bezos

    edit I said this as a joke, and later found Apple recently gifted Trump a golden idol.

    God I miss when satire was silliness, and not psychic future sight.

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  • [–] 17 points 1 year ago (3 children)

    In addition to the other answers;

    America's deserts are tectonically stable and don't experience natural disasters. If you want your data and/or compute running in two regions for redundancy, somewhere in the desert is a good choice for one of your DCs.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    Maybe in AZ or other states but CA deserts are not tectonically stable.

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  • [–] 13 points 1 year ago

    Two more reasons not yet mentioned:

    It is close to a population center (Phoenix) keeping latency low to customers. Getting customers off the public Internet quickly and into your private network fast is best for a lot of reasons.

    Cheap and abundant solar power. Data centers are extremely power hungry and power lines are expensive so companies like Amazon almost always secure abundant power rights before building. Google built their first data center in The Dalles Oregon because an aluminum smelter had gone belly up and left a bunch of capacity unclaimed in a local hydroelectric dam.

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  • [–] 25 points 1 year ago

    They absolutely can run closed loop. It does not cool as well as evaporative cooling (it takes MASSIVE heat to evaporate water) but it can work if designed right with large system capacity and big radiators. Trouble is it's likely more expensive than pissing away the water and we know all that matters is bottom line.

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  • [–] 7 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    No, usually the water doesn't cool down fast enough. Trying to reuse it just slowly heats it up, until either the water or the servers evaporate.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago

    usually the water doesn't cool down fast enough

    ...in the time chosen. If the planet can get down to 13c overnight, I bet Skippy's relatively smaller data centre can get down sooner with a proper loop.

    I know it's hard finding a good spot of flat land now that the choicest spots have all been fracked for methane and are no longer stable - thanks, 'green' energy shysters! - but what else were ya gonna do with all that space under the solar panels?

    By-product? Free showers for the homeless with that waste heat. Yay?

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  • [–] 16 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    This is a good showcase of how a few individuals can leverage power to fend off massive interests. For the good of the public even, in this instance.

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  • [–] 8 points 1 year ago

    So they'll just go build it in Chandler with all the others instead, I guess?

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  • [–] 4 points 1 year ago

    I guess that , unlike some famous people in "Phoenix Valley", the people in Tucson did not forget "the white man's greed".

    Kudos to them!

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago

    Well fine, guess I'll have to make my obese fart videos the old fashioned way. Anyone seen my kimchi?

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