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[–] 19 points 1 year ago*

Samuel Bendahan, a Socialist member of parliament, told RTS that he shares Proton’s concerns about state overreach but dislikes the firms tactics. “I never like it when companies try to pressure Switzerland or its people with money,” he said. “In a democracy, the right way is to argue, not threaten to leave.” Allowing firms to dictate policy by brandishing relocation threats, he warned, “is the worst possible outcome—for democracy itself.”

While they have a point, what else should they do? If this gets written into law, there is nothing else they can do but leave. And I don't read it as a threat, but as a logical consequence.

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  • [–] 7 points 1 year ago

    That's a well written overview, thanks

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  • 44 comments in c/technology@lemmy.world view that post
    [–] 55 points 1 year ago* (2 children)

    For those who didn't read the article

    “If the proposals pass, Proton’s services in Switzerland would be less private than Google’s,” Mr Yen told Le Temps. Frustrated by the lack of assurances from Beat Jans, the federal councillor overseeing the matter, Proton has opted to halt Swiss investments and shift its infrastructure plans abroad. Its artificial-intelligence data centres, deemed especially sensitive, will be located in Germany and Norway and involve investing CHF 100 million.

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  • [–] 77 points 1 year ago (3 children)

    Proton AI never makes sense in the first place.

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  • [–] 13 points 1 year ago

    Good, fuck the swiss if they try to kill privacy, it was the only reason they got so much investment from the west.

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  • [–] 5 points 1 year ago

    Fair enough. The proposed VÜPF changes suck balls.

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  • [–] 70 points 1 year ago* (19 children)

    They need to fire their CEO and get an executive suite that can develop good products and not just copy Google while adding keywords related to "privacy" and "freedoms" in their marketing copytext.

    That's the exact same thing as Google.

    I say this as long time Proton user and subscriber.

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  • [–] 100 points 1 year ago (7 children)

    Imo, having Proton just copy Google but actually be private is exactly what I want. Of course, if they stray away from privacy then there will be issues. I also feel like they are making good stuff. As a subscriber myself I don't have many issues with their offering other than the stuff they don't provide but Google does.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (3 children)

    I don't believe they will be able to compete with Google/OpenAI in a direct battle by having a 1:1 LLM product copy but with privacy. The costs are likely too high for an organisation like Proton and their LLM is likely to have significantly subpar output.

    Don't get me wrong, I am all for a private, cloud LLM, but I would rather they came up with novel usability features, a better front-end for evaluating sources (and faster identification of errors and hallucinations) and so on.

    I am not seeing any of that.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (1 child)

    Fair enough, I would also prefer if they pushed out an online excel/power point alternative before this or or allowed for more cloud storage.

    That being said, I also don't think this is a bad thing to do. It seems to work alright so if they can at least be at that level then that's fantastic. I do wish they pooled their resources with other open source AI models cause that would be more efficient but maybe they have a good reason. I've just not looked into it cause I don't use AI that often

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago

    I use LLMs as a complement to search and Luma is far worse than even Le Chat from Mistral for moderately complex prompts.

    Luma is also notable slower (to an unacceptable level).

    I would they rather they focused on existing services. I use their email services and it's pretty good. Based on reviews, it seems that their cloud storage offering isn't on that level.

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  • [–] 7 points 1 year ago

    I don't believe they will be able to compete with Google/OpenAI in a direct battle

    I don't know about that. From my experience, community AI models (both image generation and LLMs) are often far, far superior to whatever large corporations can dish out within the same size bracket

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  • [–] 71 points 1 year ago (3 children)

    I mean.... Why not?

    I want Gmail without Google. Protonmail sells that to me, seems like a win/win.

    Same for other services.

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  • [+] -13 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    I don't think they can make a direct competitor. An LLM is expensive to run and getting a good LLM model requires lots of spend.

    I like the idea of a private cloud LLM, but based on my experience with Mistral (an EU based LLM service), it is noticeably less useful than ChatGPT and especially Gemini for work use cases.

    Bases on some basic test prompts (related to finding sources and documents related to specific parts of government budgets in different countries all around the world), Lumo did not perform well. Only some general suggestions for sources were provided.

    It would be great to see Lumo improve, but I have my doubts.

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  • [–] 32 points 1 year ago (5 children)

    The difference is that Google scans your private correspondence and can report you to authorities for any reason, legit or not.

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  • [–] 5 points 1 year ago (4 children)

    That's a fair argument. Although I personally wouldn't put too much emphasis on "can report you to authorities for any reason". That's true of any third party, your local mini-mart can report you to the authorities for any reason, legit or not.

    I am referring more to the Lumo LLM initiative. It's a standard LLM pitch with some privacy copytext added on.

    While I haven't tried Lumo, I do have experience with smaller cloud LLMs (e.g. Mistral, trying to not use American services) and they tend to be subpar for my work use cases.

    I don't see how Lumo will compete with ChatGPT or Gemini (haven't tried Grok for obvious reasons).

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  • [–] 10 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    Although I personally wouldn't put too much emphasis on "can report you to authorities for any reason"

    They literally sent police after some poor dude based on their correspondence with a doctor

    https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2022/08/googles-scans-private-photos-led-false-accusations-child-abuse

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago

    Google does not have the authority to "send the police". They reported content that looked like CSAM and the police did what police do and assumed the guy was a criminal.

    The problem is not that they reported it, the problem is that they had it in the first place.

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  • [–] 0 points 1 year ago

    Agreed, that's pretty fucked up.

    However, on some level it's to be expected that 3rd parties may report you if they feel you are engaging illegal activities (especially on their premises).

    While I don't support technological backdoors, there are legitimate for society to engage in surveillance. It's the responsibility of voters to make sure that this is done in a responsible and transparent manner.

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  • [–] 3 points 1 year ago*

    Although I personally wouldn't put too much emphasis on "can report you to authorities for any reason". That's true of any third party

    Not true of Proton.

    I don't see how Lumo will compete with ChatGPT or Gemini

    The same way it competes with all their other products; by making it private and open source.

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  • [–] 5 points 1 year ago (5 children)

    People here be acting like no one uses chatbots.

    I like Lumo, be it only because I can use it instead of US or Chinese LLMs. Hope they help drive european AI development. And I'm quite sure Proton thought about their 1 billion investment a bit before announcing it.

    You can refuse to use LLMs, but I doubt the use of AI will ever decrease again.

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  • [–] 8 points 1 year ago (3 children)

    Mistral AI is another EU alternative for now. There is talk into it being sold, but for now it is still from Europe.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago

    It just needs a dark theme. Work computer is powerful enough that I can run local models and use it occasionally. A cloud one that's just using similar open models as what you can easily download is fine to me.

    Proton does have aot of work to do understandable to people's annoyance with them. Lack of Linux Drive application but they've released alpha/beta API for Drive. Drive performance isn't great yet. The Docs feature is pretty barebones for now. Calendar is too simple for power users. Regardless for now they're the closest privacy centric replacement for Google services

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  • [+] -100 points 1 year ago (8 children)

    Yeah Russia’s the only one who gets Proton data

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  • [–] 41 points 1 year ago (4 children)

    Wrong bogeyman here, the more worrying problem is the CEO endorsing the US republicans, seemingly (and charitably) due to the ostensibly pro-privacy policy position, ignoring all the other policy advocation attached to endorsing them or their track record of doublespeak particularly around things like privacy.

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  • [–] 7 points 1 year ago

    Proton is owned by an actual non-profit (not one of those fake once you have in the US) and Andy is only 1/3rd of it so he cannot really do much alone, plus he still needs to follow the objective for the non-profit otherwise he can be held personally responsible.

    Personally, I live in a country where you can vote for hundreds of politicians, and we have multiple parties ruling the country and I don't believe that agreeing with one statement is enduring anybody.

    Still, Andy Yen is an idiot and Proton needs some extra governance structure to keep him in check (firing him is going to be a hard one since he still owns shares IIRC). Believe what you want and choose to use Proton or not, but it doesn't help the cause for the people to be more critical without giving context.

    This was said by Andy directly: https://miro.medium.com/v2/resize:fit:640/format:webp/19_3JV1BBIZjAYkoTDQzOlg.png This was said by Andy through Proton: https://archive.ph/quYyb And this was his later comment from his own account: https://miro.medium.com/v2/resize:fit:720/format:webp/1Pz-ct2LGRpxWdKsHSZu1Rg.png

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  • 29 comments in c/privacy@lemmy.ml view that post
    [–] 39 points 1 year ago (22 children)

    That's why my email provider is in Norway and not Switzerland. Norway has much stronger privacy laws.

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  • [–] 23 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

    What? Police can "subpoena" whatever the fuck they want. ISPs must log and keep them for years. Will share with allied intelligence services and Interpol. Never thought of Norwegian privacy laws as particularly strong..

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  • [–] 21 points 1 year ago (9 children)

    The article states that Proton plans to move certain (AI) data centers to Germany and Norway, as they seemed those the most sensitive. I can imagine if these laws/policies are enacted, they would look to move all services.

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  • [–] 22 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (7 children)

    Well, Proton can move wherever they want and be as good as they what, I'll never be a customer again because of what their fuckhead CEO Andy Yen said.

    I don't care that he's backpedaled, I don't care that Andy Yen isn't Proton-the-company, and I'm even willing to accept it was a very unfortunate duh moment on his part. Here the thing: I don't have many ways as a nobody to get back at Trump, but one way is to not give any of my money to anybody who enabled him, even by mistake.

    So Proton is on my shitlist forever thanks to Yen.

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  • [+] -48 points 1 year ago (5 children)
  • [+] 22 points 1 year ago (2 children)
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  • [–] 8 points 1 year ago (6 children)

    Yeah right, so much better to have your e-mails stored in clear text. With E2EE, I don’t give any fucks about local laws. My data stays my data.

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  • [–] 11 points 1 year ago (4 children)

    Doesn't proton's e2ee only work if you're emailing with another proton user?

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  • [–] 11 points 1 year ago (3 children)

    Protons' copy is always encrypted. E2EE doesn't apply when the recipient is on an external mail server (unless you explicitly encrypt it with their public PGP key).

    This still provides the major benefit of encrypting your email archive, and protection from data breach.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    I'm not well versed in encryption, can't they just decrypt them at will? When I use their webmail I just login, I don't provide any decryption pass

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  • [+] 10 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 child)
  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago

    That’s not entirely accurate. All metadata is encrypted, too, with the only exception of your IP. But there are ways to hide that, too, if necessary. So you only see the IP, date-time and how much data is transferred. But you will never see what was transferred or what is stored.

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  • [+] -2 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (6 children)
  • [–] 12 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    I'm not inherently trying to defend Proton here, but the question to ask here is -- did they have a choice? I'm asking seriously, and not rhetorically. Did they willingly hand over the data, or were they legally required to, by Swiss law?

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  • [+] -12 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (2 children)
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  • [–] 11 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

    Legal requests, which they were legally obligated to comply with. Every single country in the world will have some avenue to require data to be released to authorities.

    That’s why strong privacy at every layer is so important. E2EE, for instance, means Proton cannot turn over any data that was transferred to and from customers. Private payments mean the company can’t turn over data on who is paying for accounts. DoH means the company can’t turn over data on what sites customers visited. Etc…

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  • [–] 17 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    do you think any company in any country can refuse to do that?

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  • [+] -9 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 child)
  • [–] 15 points 1 year ago

    you mean, move after getting the request? that won't rid them of the obligation to serve the request, laws can be enforced internationally. and if they were to move to a small island or something, a big question if they have any capable servers and network bandwidth, and whether that small country try to extort the company to their benefit that just moved there

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  • 3 comments in c/protonprivacy@lemmy.world view that post
    [–] 39 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    “I never like it when companies try to pressure Switzerland or its people with money,” he said. “In a democracy, the right way is to argue, not threaten to leave.” Allowing firms to dictate policy by brandishing relocation threats, he warned, “is the worst possible outcome—for democracy itself.”

    That does happen. But is that really what's happening here? I can't imagine it's just a threat. It looks like the government is considering a law that makes Proton's entire business model illegal in Switzerland. As a result it would only make sense for them to start working on moving elsewhere. It seems a completely natural, obvious, even necessary consequence.

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  • [–] 3 points 1 year ago*

    For context, that’s a quote from Samuel Bendahan, a Socialist member of parliament from a separate article on RTS, sharing that he shares Proton’s concerns about state overreach but dislikes the firms tactics.

    Bendahan’s concerns would make sense if Proton felt like letting the government violate a little of their customer’s privacy (as a treat) while they encourage the government to please not do that. But Proton is not interested in doing that, probably believing that their customers would revolt en masse if they did.

    If Bendahan doesn’t like the consequences, he should be preventing them from happening, not whining that the consequences are unjust.

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