Voting got Trump into the White House. It works. Just because it didn't work the way you wanted it to last time doesn't mean throw a hissy fit and sit on your ass.
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The slightly more nuanced steel man is voting alone doesn't fix things. I.e vote and take other action
Serbia's election results happened after almost 2 years of protests including worker strikes
Yeah. Anyone who thinks "vote and everything will be fixed" is just as delusional as the person who says voting doesn't matter. Serbia did way more than just vote and so far they've only voted out the authoritarian leader. They still need to tackle all corruption built up over the years. This is not the end, if anything it's a start.
"Just" voting would have stopped Trump in both 2016 and 2024. Until the opposite is proven, it is extremely stupid to not vote in 2026 or 2028 in the US from an assumption that voting alone does not work.
And "Just" voting stopped Trump in 2020. But because everyone was happy that Trump got voted out nobody cared to fix the underlying problems that got Trump elected in the first place Trump won again in 2024.
Just voting is not enough. You need to hold your politicians accountable and make sure they represent your interest not the interest of corporations. If you just vote in democrats and a democratic president but you let the establishment democrats continue to serve the corporations that vote is meaningless because your material conditions won't improve, discontent will continue growing and eventually someone like Trump will be back in office because they have sweet little lies to whisper into the ears of desperate people who will take it into their hearts and vote accordingly.
The proof is right there, you just refuse to see it.
Nobody saying to vote is saying all you need to do is vote. We are saying voting matters and if you don't vote you're as good as a fuckin MAGAt.
The person I replied to literally did say just voting would've stopped Trump. They didn't say voting and holding your president accountable or voting and making sure the right steps are taken to prevent Trump again. How am I not supposed interpret it as "voting is all that matters"?
And I didn't say not to vote. Voting matters but voting is not the be all end all that most Americans believe it to be. See 2020 to 2024 when it was time to permanently stop Trump but people didn't give a shit because they had already voted Trump out. I'd say the OP post has the same "voting solves all our problems" vibe, which is why I commented in the first place. Just voting won't save America.
Barely half of eligible voters vote in the midterms. Like twenty percent vote in primaries. People largely don't vote and that's part of the problem. People largely don't vote because they're idiots that think the parties are the same and listen to idiots that say the parties are the same in spite of literally all the evidence. And yeah, if people actually fucking voted it would have stopped Trump like it did in 2020. If voting didn't work republicans wouldn't be trying to take it from you. Voting in every election is the bare minimum every citizen should be doing. But let's be honest, none of your community outreach is gonna matter much once they're going door to door.
Unfortunatley nuance is lost on the majority of the denizens of the internet, everything is black or white here for the majority of people.
not to speak of how replacing our rulers can not fix the issue of rulership
That's like buying a better car to fix the issue of travel.
Even if you don't think voting will fix everything, just remember that it won't -hurt- anything. Just vote.
At the absolute least, voting (when possible) can stop things from breaking so quickly and making it easier to do the other things that fix things.
And once things are fixed, voting well will be one of the actions keeping things from breaking again.
Plus, it's just one hour of effort with years' worth of impact. Even if that impact is low, it's a good tradeoff.
Go Brazil!
If somebody tells you not to vote, they're voting for the other guy.
Sometimes they are just dumb. Yes, that dumb. They exist, they have communities on reddit and they ban you if you dare argue against their logic.
There's communities here that ban you for arguing to vote too lol. I'd argue that's far more common in lefty spaces than liberal ones.
Fortunately I haven't seen those yet, maybe defederated?
They exist. I've seen arguments that voting is actually worse than not voting, regardless of who it is for.
It's imaginary like the power of voting.
I don't see much word about it so I'll say: "Vote in primaries!" That way when the national elections show up, you're not stuck with John Fascist and Jane Corporate. Don't just wait for the big ones; vote for each election you can to make your voice fully heard.
Because there are massive groups of people on the internet with vested interests in convincing you not to vote (because it helps their allies win).
Ooof. Two days isn't long enough to know if the authoritarian regime is gonna go quietly. Hoping they're able to make it stick. 🤞🙏🤞🙏🤞
Two days isn’t long enough to know if the authoritarian regime is gonna go quietly.
Or if the Student List delegates are going to be able to form a government and deliver on popular reforms.
People getting all excited like it's Obama '08, fully forgetting what happened two years later.
Why are people attributing this to Serbia?
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Serbia didn't win via voting, voting was a consequence of their victory
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Brazil is literally right there and makes so much more sense as a case study
yea vote but don't imagine that beat fascism. serbia and the rest of the world has a lot to achieve for the system to fully change
I would like to remind you the students got sound weapon'd, and there was an undertone of potential violence.
Also, our election system still was working, so not riggable.
There's a reason why the founders of America excplicitly said that revolution not done peacefully, must be done through force. They knew, no matter how vague, just what sort of calamity was coming, because such things had struck every kingdom and nation before the US.
If I take a shower, that won't suddenly make me attractive to girls. And yet, if I don't take a shower, my stench will make me unattractive to girls.
On second thoughts, the "why bother voting" crowd would probably struggle with an analogy about taking a shower.
i think the thing with elections is that while they can change and improve things, any one persons individual absitnance is neglegable, especially on a national level. if many people do not vote though, that does have an impact.
so if i chose not to vote but did not tell anyone about it, there would be basically no difference, while me talking about not voting or advocating against voting could meaningfully contribute.
i don't know how to squeeze that into a shower analogie...
anyway, everyone should go and vote for what i think is the best!
here is a margaret killjoy quote
“I’m going to choose the person who represents my interests in this grand democratic project.” I enter the booth thinking “with this one hour of my day, I’ll express my opinion about the terrain on which I’d like to keep fighting for a better world.” And I’d rather be fighting the democrats than the fascists.
I love Margaret Killjoy and think she’s right when it comes to individual action here, but it’s also important that the Democrats believe we might not vote for them if they start acting like Republicans. There is zero incentive for terrible Democrats to change if all they ever hear are people shitting blood about how you have to vote for a Democrat no matter who it is.
Girls will sooner filter you out for not being tall enough than for smelling. If you smell but you're their phenotype, they just call it musk. Anything is possible when you argue in bad faith. Now go work on yourself some more, possibly for a few years; and as far away from me as possible, while I flirt with someone I liked at first sight.
When I lived in India, I never voted, never felt like voting either because the options were far right corrupt goons or center right corrupt goons. And I believe it's the same in US.
Now that I live in the Netherlands, I can vote for SP or Pirate Party or PvdA or Green Left. I actually have parties with whom my ideologies align and I can vote for what I feel. And I already did once.
The debate isn't as black and white. In a system where electoral systems are relevant and reflect your beliefs sure go ahead and vote. But in places where this isn't the case, I don't see how voting is useful or fulfilling.
Hi from Israel. Elections were today. Preliminary results show a very strong possibility for change. It's still up in the air, but yes, voting can fix things!
Elections were today. Preliminary results show a very strong possibility for change.
Which Israeli political party opposes the genocide in Palestine, again?
הדמוקרטים
have certainly said a thing or two about that
In the elections for the twenty-five Knesset in 2022, for the first time since its establishment, the Meretz Party did not pass the electoral threshold and remained without representatives in the Knesset
:-/
The opposition is generally a lot softer on Palestine issue. Democrats (8 seats) and Arab parties (19 seats) have very good policies.
Generally the center opposition parties have "reasonable" policies, Together (12 seats) is moderate and Yashar (21 seats) more or less "keep current status but remove some settlements and don't add new".
The change from ethnic cleansing and genocide as a policy/talking point is a pretty major shift and governing parties are projected to get 53 seats out of 120.
Coalition agreements are going to be pretty tough but there's hope for a centre left block with Arab parties since a lot of things that are good for Palestinians are also generally economically good policies. This is a stark contrast to working with ultra orthodox parties which cost the state a lot of issues.
Israeli politicians are either Hitler, Super Hitler, or Mega Hitler. Wild to claim the elections will fix much.
I heard that both of the frontrunning candidates are pro-genocide, so what change exactly? Is the argument "Netanyahu isn't killing Palestinians fast enough"?
It really depends on what coalition gets formed since the leading opposition party only has 1/3 of the seats required for a majority.
If he works with Bibi it'll be shit but he's being voted for specifically for not being Bibi. This means a centre left coalition with either ultra orthodox or Palestinians is very likely.
It's still up in the air
It's not. The genocide will continue nearly unabated regardless. The best case scenario on the table is it goes back to the pre-2023 status quo of a slower genocide.
Now apply that logic to dems and republicans.
The "best case scenario" is that we revert to the pre 2020 speed of our slide in to fascism. That's not better, now the water is boiling fast enough for the frogs to notice. Given the number of people utterly incapable of putting together what happened 1992-2016 that made Trump not only viable but inevitable, I'm pretty sure at the old temperature most of you would never have tried to jump out of the pot.
Except the democratic party isn't an ideological monolith like the republican party is. And if progressives voted for progressives in primaries they could transform the democratic party into a leftist ideological monolith but y'all don't vote. I don't know how old you are but the republicans didn't used to be full fuckin nazis. Ideological nutjobs tea partied the republicans and turned into the maga Trump party. Progressives could easily do that to the Dems but you won't vote, and now you're literally arguing the actual collapse of our country is better than voting for harm reduction. You are a privileged fucking clown. Letting the fascists win isn't a solution. I hope you're at least gonna be first in line to feel the consequences of your actions, because I will be. MAGAt traitor trash.
Except the democratic party isn't an ideological monolith like the republican party is.
Now do it with the practical side of politics instead of rhetoric. The people controlling the levers of power in the party absolutely are an ideological monolith. They're all Wall St friendly and beholden to AIPAC and the Third Way Foundation.
But don't take my word for it. Go get involved in your local Democratic party. The actual administrative stuff that happens between elections. When you work closely enough with the party to understand how the party actually functions, you'll understand why the Democratic Party is ultimately as much a part of the problem as the Republicans are. The point of the Democratic Party is to capture and neuter any social movements that threaten the Wall St agenda, and to give people enough faith in the system that they won't revolt.
And there's the both sides bot.
And there's the ShitLib with no actual rebuttal to anything I said pretending like dismissing me as subhuman is a win.
Isn't the new guy more or less as bad as Bibi?
The only possibility for meaningful change in the Zionist Entity is if its brought about by the IRGC. Palestine is not yours.
What does “change” look like. Because if it’s “less genocide”, nobody gives a fuck.
That is interesting to hear. It seemed like the people against Benny think that they’re not genociding hard enough.
Note that the student movement formed an incredibly unique decentralized political apparatus OUTSIDE of the formal institutions. They are exemplary and I am excited to see how successful they are going forward. Dismantling the Vucic corporatist structure won't be easy but I think this movement is genuinely capable of it.
They did not vote blue no matter who, they built their own political bloc from fucking scratch.
Edit: I'd also like to be abundantly clear that the point communists make when they say voting doesn't work is that voting won't dismantle capitalism. These students and the political apparatus they built can change the leadership for the better but it isn't going to smash capitalism and replace it with a society free from oppression.
They did not vote blue no matter who, they built their own political bloc from fucking scratch
And if my grandmother had wheels she'd be a bicycle.
The political landscape of Serbia does not seem to be one in which the concept of "blue no matter who" even resolves to an intelligible idea.
You can't just transplant the political strategy of one set of conditions to a completely different set of conditions.
Certainly we have the same end goals, but your implied expectations do not match the conditions outside of Serbia.
Yes I agree. Serbia and America are not similar. Which is why the electoral success of the Serbian student movement does not mean electoralism is a viable strategy for significant political change in the united states as the post is suggesting.
Notably, this election was not won by the Serbian equivalent of "blue no matter who." It was won by the equivalent of a third party.
It wasn't one of the existing opposition parties that did it.
Serbia barely had a second party, as far as I could see (from Croatia). Yeah, there was some opposition, but very few had any sincere trust in it, incomparably fewer than the number of Americans who actually like and support Democrats. The Student List tapped into this vacuum.
And European democracies are generally a bit more loose with having newcomer parties being at least somewhat viable, for better and for worse (AfD, UKIP...). The US electoral system just erases 3rd parties wholesale, it's particularly abysmal.
Btw, the Student List is not terribly left-leaning. They're trying to be "apolitical", in order to attract both the left and the right.
It's great that that worked. Was this groundswell a risk which now replaces half of a two-party system, or do they use ballots which make third-party support safe?
Was this groundswell a risk which now replaces half of a two-party system, or do they use ballots which make third-party support safe?
Serbia uses a proportional "closed list" electoral system, which essentially means that a party internally chooses its representatives, and when you go to the ballot box, you vote for a party, rather than an individual representative. and the fact that it's proportional, rather than majoritarian (first past the post/winner takes all), means that third parties are more viable. But historically those third parties have been small, ethic minority-based parties.
According to Wikipedia: "Eligible voters vote for electoral lists, on which the registered candidates are present. A maximum of 250 candidates could be present on a single electoral list. An electoral list could be only submitted by a registered political party. To submit an electoral list, at least 10,000 valid signatures must be collected, though ethnic minority parties only need to collect 5,000 signature to qualify on ballot. At least 40 percent of candidates on electoral lists must be female."
The requirements here are fairly strict, and prior to the student list, there wasn't really a traditional opposition bloc. One likely struggled to cohere in the past, because of those requirements.
The movement to get the Student List on the ballot in the first place came out of a larger, non-electoral movement of protests and strikes against corruption, which provided a basis upon which a coherent opposition party could come together, and they could overcome signature requirements and the like.
We will have to see what sort of reforms they make. I'll be following it closely
It was more of a question about this recent election. Was it first-past-the-post? Because if it is and they don't fix that, they will be incorporated into a two-party system. Those don't emerge because anyone wanted one.
I'm only aware of Britain having first past the post system in Europe.
Well the great thing about winning with a party that actually wants to change the system (if they do) is that regardless of whether it was FPTP before, it doesn't have to be in the future.
Yeeeah a lot of third parties don't seem aware that this is a thing to fix. Winning makes them even less likely to consider systemic change. It worked for them - what's the problem?
Well, if the reason it "worked for them" is because they had promised electoral reform, then they could easily lose their support by breaking that promise.
In this specific situation, the coalition is very fragile without a clear ideological direction. It's very possible that it will break apart, and so it's in their interest to enact reforms that would allow smaller parties to hold influence.
Do you have historical examples to support that claim, btw? You say "a lot of third parties" but which ones?
Hungary was also won by a new party (though the leader came from Fidesz), not the existing, discredited opposition.
This, tbh. If anything, the opposition lost even harder than the government.
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