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Edward Snowden warned us and most people forgot about him. "Oliver Stone’s Snowden film remains a terrifying surveillance warning 10 years on." (www.scmp.com)
submitted 1 month ago by to c/privacy@lemmy.world
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[–] 154 points 1 month ago (18 children)

I’m still surprised how the whole Snowden scandal happened and… we kept going. Same for the Panama papers and in a slightly different way also the 2008 crisis and Covid. All moments we could have used to steer the wheel but nobody did

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  • [–] 56 points 1 month ago (11 children)

    at this point i wonder what kind of scandal would it require for people to not just keep going

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  • [–] 57 points 1 month ago

    I saw a documentary once where a wasp had a specific routine when arriving back home, and they showed the routine normally several times and then they showed the wasp doing the exact same thing after having been beheaded- no head to clean, but the wasp swiped its foreleg in the general area, then continued on the rest.

    This was given as a difference between wasps and humans, or more generally, between instinctual and considered actions.

    At first I worried a little, because I noticed how much I did on autopilot. Then I realized how much everyone does on autopilot and then I worried a lot.

    I think if we were able to continue walking around without our heads, people absolutely would.

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  • [–] 21 points 1 month ago* (1 child)

    I'm shocked that Europe and others happily saddle themselves under US surveillance fully knowing the details.

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  • [–] -5 points 1 month ago

    There hasn't really been an alternative before now, the USA was a technological superpower offering services which only existed there and to a lesser extent in China (who wants to kill the EU and NATO to make conquests easier).

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  • [+] -15 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

    1. A whole lot came about from the Panama Papers, you just stopped paying attention.

    2. Very few people trust the guy who attempted to flee to China and successfully fled to Russia. For good fucking reason, too.

    3. There have also been a lot of discussions and legislatures involving the NSA and surveillance since then, though people keep voting for Trump (in part because of Russian and Chinese psyops supporting him) so not as much legislation as I'd like.

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    • [–] 53 points 1 month ago (2 children)

    Stone's film isn't that good, Citizenfour is much better. You can watch it here: https://archive.org/details/citizenfour-2014

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    [–] 36 points 1 month ago (3 children)

    I liked the documentary https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citizenfour

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  • [–] 4 points 1 month ago* (1 child)

    Companies like Google profit enormously from data-mining of your personal searches, behaviour and habits. There is more money in selling that data than in selling a product. It’s surveillance capitalism. It really is a new kind of totalitarianism

    ironically this is not what snowden brought to light - that was the government hacking and access everything, from which there has been little to no downside

    the greatest threat to our society has been facebook, x, and all the other shitty media that has corrupted our democracy and aided totalitarians and monsters like russia

    spying on terrorists has been a great asset

    snowden is now just another russian asset

    stone is a lunatic fantasist, but also a great artist

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  • [–] 5 points 1 month ago

    that was the government hacking and access everything, from which there has been little to no downside

    Attention everyone screaming about tankies: this is the guy you neet to watch out for.

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    • [–] 31 points 1 month ago (10 children)

    I watched that movie with my girlfriend at the time and her father. After the movie had ended and the credits rolled, her father turned to us and simply said "He is a traitor". I fucking hated her father so much lol

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  • [+] -12 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (7 children)

    TBF he did attempt to flee to China then successfully fled to Russia.

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  • [–] 19 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (2 children)

    Where was he supposed to go? London? Paris? You think US allies wouldn't hand him over when asked?

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  • [+] -10 points 1 month ago (1 child)

    France did speak out against the USA publicly after the news broke, so that was one option, yes. TBH Snowden had no reason to believe Russia or China would keep him after he already outlived his usefulness, unless perhaps they still think he's useful even now.

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  • [–] 14 points 1 month ago (3 children)

    After the US had revoked his passport, while he was already in Russia, en route to Ecuador.

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  • [+] -12 points 1 month ago* (2 children)

    Then he shouldn't have picked China and Russia as his first two options. While speaking with reporters he was already in Hong Kong intending to cross into China but realized they have an extradition agreement with the USA.

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    [–] 15 points 1 month ago (1 child)

    Watch a better movie about him: Citizen Four

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    • [–] 25 points 1 month ago (5 children)

    My 20 year old son doesn't know who Snowden is.

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    • [–] 11 points 1 month ago* (1 child)

    The government is outsourcing its spying to private companies. Now private companies build dossiers on every human alive. The government betrayed us on an epic scale by no longer protecting our privacy. It was a great shift few people even realize and has set the stage for a future of control.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 month ago

    Nah, dawg, ya gotta get ahead of the game and these Illuminati bitches got all these individuals acting all autonomously, like, fuck, imagine if you was the same damn authority as God. And that's why we speak with the authority of our Father in the CIA. You are what you are and we are all one interconnected being of consciousness defined by the entanglements we make with our "selves." The shit you believe is real ain't as real as ya think.

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    • [–] 20 points 1 month ago (4 children)

    I have the biography and I need to start it.

    Just to add my 2 cents: the list of countries that the US can't extradite is not that long, especially when you exposed government corruption of the highest degree and you are considered a traitor.

    Against his personal safety he told the world what was going on. I feel its unfair to demand that he should have chosen a better country to flee in order to not be thrown in some forsaken US hole with the time he had..

    I feel like call him traitor is fundamentally misunderstanding the sacrifice of one safety to alert your country that your own country is spying on you. Like the Army guy that went to jail for speaking out against the current regime (forgot the name).

    These are the people doing the sacrifice no one is willing to do for Americans and the World. In my eyes they are heroes just by standing up for everyone

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  • [–] 6 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (1 child)

    He actually offered to return to the US if they accepted that he would be given a public trial and not a military trial.

    Obama's administration rejected the idea and said that their only guarantee they would give was that they wouldn't torture him.

    Just to add my 2 cents: the list of countries that the US can’t extradite is not that long, especially when you exposed government corruption of the highest degree and you are considered a traitor.

    EDIT:

    Just to add my 2 cents: the list of countries that the US can’t extradite is not that long, especially when you exposed government corruption of the highest degree and you are considered a traitor.

    Just to add, Snowden also indirectly exposed the US's leverage in several countries that you would otherwise assume would not cooperate with the US in any capacity.

    The fact that he ended up in Russia was because he couldn't proceed to Ecuador which was his original planned location of asylum after leaving to Hong Kong.

    There are really very few countries the US can't realistically coerce or run a black ops mission to go after him. China didn't want the political baggage for no gain and Iran can't even protect its own leaders from strategic bombing.

    That leaves basically Russia and its less than ideal former soviet allies.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 month ago

    Obama just said he wouldn’t give him a pardon, but the administration did say they would give him legal protections and thought he would get a fair trial. One thing to remember is that we typically have 3 branches of government. These days, not so much it feels like

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  • [+] -8 points 1 month ago

    These are the people doing the sacrifice no one is willing to do for Americans and the World.

    if you're going to sacrifice yourself don't stop at the hand, take the whole head.

    In my eyes they are heroes just by standing up for everyone

    heroes don't need people to defend their actions because the actions of a hero need no validation.

    Snowden is just a man. he's no hero.

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    • [–] 19 points 1 month ago (3 children)

    Or, ya know, the person it was based on. Who gave up his life and fled the country to blow the whistle and we did nothing.

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    • [–] 13 points 1 month ago

    Article from South China Morning Post lol

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    [+] 6 points 1 month ago (1 child)
    [deleted]
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  • [–] -5 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

    but it's literally what happened.

    you want people to make shit up like the magats?

    edit: ahhh, I get it. the magats love Snowden because of course they would. he did everything every magat wants to do.

    • sell out Americans to the Russians and Chinese
    • play the victim
    • pretend to be the hero
    • do less than nothing to support change
    • flee to Russia

    the only thing he didn't do was want to fuck kids, but I suppose we can overlook that since he's technically no longer American.

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    • [–] 5 points 1 month ago

    Almost everyone forget easily and move on, as few -- mostly activists -- know who he is and what he did believing it was the best for humanity.

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    [–] 1 point 1 month ago

    For some reason I read that as Roger Stone and I was confused.

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    [+] -7 points 1 month ago* (4 children)

    Snowden is a direct catalyst for Trump. :/

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    • [+] -20 points 1 month ago (7 children)

    Snowden seems cool but anybody who flees first to China but upon learning about their extradition agreements then to Russia is probably not a trustworthy source on anything liberty.

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  • [–] 10 points 1 month ago (3 children)

    I would probably choose a shithole like Russia over US prison (or a death sentence..?). I've heard terrible things about Russia, but I can say the same for the US penal system. And being high-profile probably doesn't help him.

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  • [+] -9 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (2 children)

    It seems like a false choice to say those are the only two options. Being comfortable in China and Russia implies he had contacts there beforehand, and that wouldn't make him a whistleblower it would make him a foreign agent.

    I'm not saying he didn't reveal some important stuff to the public while working as a government contractor employed by the NSA, just that I don't think he's a cool person and I understand why people don't trust him.

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  • [–] 6 points 1 month ago (1 child)

    Nah, it just means he was smart enough to know the US couldn't extradite him from there. Other, smaller countries could be bribed or bullied into handing him over.

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  • [+] -8 points 1 month ago

    You're the kind of person who would have defended Italy and Spain joining hands with the Nazis. There is nothing smart about fleeing to Russia because Russia only acts out of greed and malicious intents. France and Germany both spoke out against the USA when the news broke. Austria, Finland, Ireland, Poland, Norway, Spain, and others all stated that they would consider his requests for asylum if he had been present in those respective countries at the time his US passport was revoked.

    The condition for which he was granted Russian asylum was that he stopped leaking classified info.

    But he had gone straight to Hong Kong while meeting with reporters at the start intending to cross into China, and then he fled directly to Moscow.

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  • [–] 3 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (1 child)

    I mean, what he exposed came with proof. There is no believe or disbelieve. It's not religion, there is no faith. He made an assertion and proved it with evidence.

    If you think that the government doesn't need to follow the laws and that they are immune, then yes I can see why what he did would seem negative.

    But if you believe the government should also follow its own laws, I have difficulty understanding your objection.

    The information is the information, focus on the man is only a distraction.

    A cat leaked it. A dinosaur leaked it. Hitler was resurrected and leaked it while riding a flying pig. Snowden leaked it and fled to Russia.

    It makes no difference, the information is the information regardless of the catalyst.

    Before Snowden, the US government was thought to obey its own laws, though obviously not always (for better or worse). After Snowden, we finally had confirmation that violations are commonplace and intentionally hidden.

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  • [–] -3 points 1 month ago

    If Hitler had leaked it then a shitload of people would be apprehensive to the topic, leading to both a ton of nazi sympathy and exaggeration as well as leading to many outright denying his claims, so yes that's a correct comparison.

    stembolts: "Snowden is basically Hitler"

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