transcriptScreenshot of a tweet by @feralhousepuppy: hey so you've been calling me "bro", "man", and "dude" a lot and it's really invalidating to my masculinity cause those are all gender neutral things you call trans women :/

Screenshot of a tweet by @feralhousepuppy: hey so you've been calling me "bro", "man", and "dude" a lot and it's really invalidating to my masculinity cause those are all gender neutral things you call trans women :/

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[–] 77 points 1 month ago (46 children)

I really wish there was a word that was as useful as "dude" but without the gender connotation.

I tried swapping to "fam" and "cuz" but those felt appropriated, I tried "gamer" and "chat" but those felt irony-poisoned, "Sis" and "girl" feel performative. So "dude" it shall be until someone tells me it's bad, and then they get no objective article at all.

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  • [–] 26 points 1 month ago (7 children)

    I think the australians have this figured out with "mate"

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  • [–] 11 points 1 month ago* (4 children)

    Nah, mate is as gendered as dude. Like sure some woman won’t mind, but it’s mostly men being called mate by other men.

    No straight man is going to be like “I had sex with my mate” when talking about say a fwb.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 month ago

    Nah, mate is as gendered as dude. Like sure some woman won’t mind, but it’s mostly men being called mate by other men.

    Well, yes and no, depending on where you're from.

    Where I'm from, I'd say mate meaning "a person who is my friend" as opposed to mate meaning "greeting to a random person" are used a bit differently. I think it's normal for anyone of any gender to refer to someone else of any gender as one of their mates. I would say it's not uncommon (though less common, for sure) for women to greet other women. But men and women generally refer to someone of the opposite gender as love (and of course this is looked down upon in other parts of the country (other terms of endearment are available, but love is the most common, at least when I lived there)).

    I'd agree that no straight man would be likely say "I had sex with my mate", but I don't think they'd be much more likely to say "I had sex with my friend", either, unless they ended the sentence "... with benefits".

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  • [–] 1 point 1 month ago

    been using “m8” for too long, that I don't think I’m call’em “benefits.” @That point: “tis my partner[s]” or “oh em? that's ma spotter/coach.”

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  • [–] 7 points 1 month ago

    Mate doesn't pluralise well though, 'I'm going out with my mates' is fine but 'hi mates' sounds wrong. Also a lot of it is in the delivery, calling someone 'mate' can be anything from friendly to neutral to hostile depending on the tone and the words which precede it.

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  • [–] 44 points 1 month ago

    I mean the golden rule with how you speak about people is really just to listen to what people tell you about what makes them feel respected

    So feel free to use dude gender neutrally if thats how you speak, and if someone says they don't feel good in it, stop. If youre worried it might not feel great for someone you can always just say you're used to using it gender neutrally and ask 🤷🏻‍♂️

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  • [–] 21 points 1 month ago (5 children)

    "dude" always felt gender neutral to me (though do note English is my fourth language...).

    And if you look at the etymology of the word, gender neutrality makes some sense.

    It started out as slang in the late 1800s mocking "hyper-fashionable young urban men".

    Then the early 20th century it transformed to describe tourists from the East Coast on the Western side of the country (see "dude ranches").

    And then in the 60-70s it transformed thanks to surfer slang, back to being male oriented.

    I'd say if you're uncomfortable with the "dude" form of the term... use "dood" instead. Or even "d00d" if you're feeling l33t h4xx0r.

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  • [–] 12 points 1 month ago (2 children)

    So in your examples, it went from making fun of a type of men, to referring to the overwhelmingly-male owners of hobby ranches, to referring to male surfers.

    When exactly was it ever gender neutral?

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  • [–] 15 points 1 month ago

    No...

    You got the second part wrong. It wasn't the "overwhelmingly male owners of hobby ranches" that were called dudes, but, if you read my comment again, you'll notice I specifically said the UNGENDERED tourists hailing from the east coast - primarily city folk - visiting rural western areas, ranches.

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  • [–] 10 points 1 month ago (2 children)

    Always thought mate was fantastic but it sounds weird when Americans use it

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  • [–] 10 points 1 month ago (5 children)
  • [–] 1 point 1 month ago (2 children)
  • [–] 1 point 1 month ago* (1 child)

    hmm i can see it but that one would be more difficult to read when you aren't used to it.

    when saying it. it's a very open-mouthed sound so peeps will probably think they didn't understand you right, while baby has a rather distinct and complete-feeling kinda sound i think.

    EDIT: it would sound nice tho once peeps know you use that sound-word for everyone >v<

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  • [–] 8 points 1 month ago (3 children)
  • [–] 6 points 1 month ago

    personally a fan of comrade, friend or pal.

    but i also really kinda do use guy and dude gender neutrally. Accidentally have called everyone i know dude at some point. P sure i called my mom dude several timea.

    but also aware some people dont like that so i makr a point of asking if know/suspect theyve a non cis gender identity, or correct as needed if asked.

    people only really take it badly if its the first time meeting and theres doubt to ones priorities. People are generally very forgiving if you establish intent and willingness to respect each other in my experience

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  • [–] 4 points 1 month ago (1 child)

    I mentioned "cat" elsewhere but this morning I remember Mr. Rogers called us all "neighbor" and I think it could work.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 month ago (2 children)

    I like folks but it's pleural so only works for groups.

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  • [–] 58 points 1 month ago (10 children)

    I used to work with some proper manly-men; ex military, oil rig workers, lumber jacks etc. You get the picture.

    The amount of times people get called “babe” and “sweet cheeks” etc. was dizzying - as was the constant vague alluding to the wanting of doing horrifically outlandish sexual stuff to each other.

    Weird, but fun, vibe all around.

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  • [–] 36 points 1 month ago (5 children)

    Did you work in the gay steel mill from the Simpsons?

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  • [–] 16 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (2 children)

    Isn't the "alluding of wanting sexual stuff" just homophobia? Was anyone of them actually gay? Would they accept an openly gay person in their manly group? For me it sounds like "guys, look, I'm gay! how degrading and self-deprecating of me. can you imagine anyone here actually being gay? hilarious!". I heard the same things from military friends and they are the most right-wing people I know. I have hard time believing their "gay jokes" are just innocent teasing. But I don't know, maybe?

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  • [–] 19 points 1 month ago (1 child)

    Yeah - I hear what you’re saying but it was probably closer to “gay chicken” rather than anything else.

    You’d bend down for the hundredth time that day to pick up something and you just hear a distant “mmmhmm” or an “oh yeah, baby”

    One guy, if I hadn’t worked with him for a while, used to hug me, sniff me aggressively and then, whilst maintaining eye contact, tell me that he’d missed my smell. And then kiss me on the forehead.

    One (openly) gay guy worked, tangentially, with us and came to a works do one year. He declared, in the first pub, that he was gonna turn one of us before the end of the night. I’m not sure if he succeeded… but he stayed the course of the night and seemed to enjoy himself.

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  • [–] 39 points 1 month ago (35 children)

    I subscribe to the good burger use of dude.

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  • [–] 31 points 1 month ago* (34 children)

    yeah no "dudette" is an abomination of linguistics and I refuse to entertain it, and anyone who does should be met with derision.

    We are all dudes on this blursed world. 🙏

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  • [–] 31 points 1 month ago (33 children)

    It's odd that the gender "neutral" terms are always the masculine ones

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  • [–] 18 points 1 month ago (29 children)

    It's deliberate, for all the same reasons across all of history.

    It's why I use terms that (I assume) are genuinely like "folks" and "peeps" and "comrade" etc.

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  • [–] 13 points 1 month ago (16 children)

    I’m sorry but I HATE folks. I’m down with virtually all other gender neutral terms, but I psychologically can’t uncouple ‘folks’ from pseudo-homespun charm put on by people who are sleazebags for various reasons. Anything but folks, I beg (general) you

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  • [–] 16 points 1 month ago

    I use folks all the time!

    ...but i'm also a server at waffle house, so I guess I am using southern culture and folksy charm to sell you waffles and coffee. It's a soulless existence, I know, but at least I have my cold, hard cash tips to keep me warm at night.

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  • [–] 11 points 1 month ago (4 children)

    I use the word folks regularly :(

    That makes me sad

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  • [+] 5 points 1 month ago* (5 children)
  • [–] 0 points 1 month ago (4 children)

    Well no, it doesn't, because it's a different word. Plenty of words have similar meanings or origins while having very different connotations from each other. See for example the whole [saxon? norman? whatever] vs french root thing in english, where words with identical meanings but different root languages came to have different connotations (worker vs laborer) or even different meanings (cow vs beef).

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  • [+] 1 point 1 month ago (3 children)
  • [–] 0 points 1 month ago (2 children)

    Just that you shouldn't expect two words that have similar meanings to be treated the same way, because they often have different connotations and usages.

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  • [+] 0 points 1 month ago* (2 children)
  • [–] 0 points 1 month ago* (1 child)

    Do you know what a connotation is? Frankly this is a bit annoying and I'm going to be blunt: it's exceedingly obvious that it's a difference in connotation (as I've said three times now) rather than in definition*. The difference is the context of how the words are used and the associations they have.

    I psychologically can’t uncouple ‘folks’ from pseudo-homespun charm put on by people who are sleazebags for various reasons

    That is the difference.

    * There are definitional differences too but it doesn't really matter.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 month ago

    Another example: cavalier vs caballero. Cavalier comes from the French word for knight, and that's caballero in Spanish, but the meaning is completely different. One is arrogant, one is noble (the good kind, yeah I do get how they are related and where and why the meanings shifted).

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  • [–] 8 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (6 children)

    Don't forget "cats"

    Everybody wants to be a cat 🎶

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  • [–] 3 points 1 month ago (4 children)

    Sorry liberals, there are only two genders: CATS and DOGS

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  • [–] 1 point 1 month ago (3 children)
  • [–] 2 points 1 month ago* (2 children)

    I think using "deliberate" to refer to something that's as collective and reactive as societal trends in language usage is misleading. The amount of personal agency involved, except in rare cases of people intentionally trying to cause a cultural shift, is pretty minimal.

    Also you got me curious-- "peeps" comes directly from "people" as you might expect, and "folks" and "comrade" actually originally originate as terms referring to (among other usages) military groups. So I would say they are indeed gender-neutral, even in origin, unless you count gendered expectations of the military which I'm not sure carried over to later, more general usages.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 month ago

    It's weird when we feminise a word like dude (that didn't have gender and wasn't about people) by adding a diminutive suffix.

    I would say dude wasn't gendered until dudette was coined, and probably isn't gendered where dudette doesn't have currency

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  • [–] 19 points 1 month ago (2 children)

    I really wish inheritantly masculine words weren't always ending up the "gender neutral" defaults.

    I can't help but feel like ever since being out over the last 2 years, friends are calling me "man" or "dude" in a neutral sense way more often than they ever did before despite them being supportive and it just feels too me like petting a cat in the wrong direction. I know I need to be more vocal in it making me uncomfortable but I've always tried to avoid confrontation so it's hard

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  • [–] 2 points 1 month ago

    It wasn’t until I started really participating in the queer community that I realized why the term dude bothered me, and then my eyes were fully opened to the patriarchy.

    Ever since then I only use the word when arguing with cis white men.

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