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[–] 100 points 3 months ago

I thought the title was a pun lol

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  • [–] 40 points 3 months ago (1 child)

    Just an fyi, and speaking as an anarchist, I would NOT consider Proudhon a good example. Bro was a supporter of the Confederacy, as well as quite a few other very problematic stuff.

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    [–] 45 points 3 months ago (7 children)

    My biggest growth with leftism was just learning to let other well meaning people be wrong. I'm wrong most of the time but inviting other people to dunk on me never really fixed any of my issues so it probably wouldn't help anyone else either.

    There's plenty of online space for people who think capitalism has to go but maybe we shouldn't slob off mass murderers and imperialists to make that happen. It's not a worldview we actually have to fight other internet leftists for. Especially since nothing done online is praxis.

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  • [–] 11 points 3 months ago (3 children)

    You should have that growth looked at.

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  • [–] 1 point 3 months ago (2 children)

    While I appreciate the sentiment, how can we form cohesive organizations without cohesive ideas and policies? The Bolshevists struggled with this and took a lot of ideas into consideration, while forging policy. It doesn't mean we automatically kick people out of dialogue, until it threatens the developed anticapitalist policy forged through these struggles among ourselves. It's not that "not everyone has a voice," as much as "certain policies take precedence in order to stop the advancement of capitalism that directly, indirectly, and more importantly, intentionally harms the many for the insatiable greed of the few.

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  • [–] 2 points 3 months ago (1 child)

    Well, I'd argue that the cohesive ideas already exist within people's consciousness in a serviceable state, even as wrong minded as we can be. What doesn't exist is a directive within us to turn morally good ideas into actions that we take. And we just can't get that from online, being here talking with eachother like this is too emotionally rewarding whether or not we're arguing.

    If you live in a place where you have a community that can act against capitalism in any particular way, doing that would probably be more effective than checking online with strangers like me or the .ml 社会信用体系 farm for alternatives. You know, it just doesn't feel like there are any wrong answers now. Also me being here talking is 100% a part of the problem.

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  • [–] 0 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago)

    No they most certainly are not cohesive, if certain leftists insist on clinging to mis- and dis- information, especially when certain leftists know that Western media is consistently and constantly carrying water for the same system that oppresses us with:

    1. Surveillance state
    2. Media lies
    3. Violent police action
    4. Embracing fascism while criminalizing even right wing Democrats, let alone leftist thought, writing and discussion
    5. Creating mental illness to justify incarceration
    6. Creating more criminal categories to justify concentration camps (homelessness, peaceful protests, mutual aid, feeding the homeless in the park)
    7. Debanking
    8. Desnaturalization
    9. Declaring natural born citizens non-citizens
    10. Disappearing citizens and noncitizens

    The same leftists, I might add, that DV comments that discuss Gell-Mann amneaia, whine while refusing to consider just maybe accusations lobbed in this very thread just may be more psyop lies, or at the very least, gross misrepresentation, like

    1. Operation Condor
    2. Operation Gladio
    3. Palestinian Genocide
    4. Data centers don't consume too much water, pollute water, increase global warming
    5. Clean Carbon
    6. CO² tax credits
    7. Plastic Recycling
    8. Asbestos safety

    Edit to add: and while I admit I'm woefully inadequate in my knowledge of history, we deal with individuals like this, in 2h and 3D who prefer to feel clever with reactions line this: https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/comment/27196446 rather than do the briefest cursory search to actually learn a fact it two, even casually.

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  • [–] 63 points 3 months ago (10 children)

    When we see a tankie, we laugh and point, then we move on. There's no talking them out of it. I grew up in the USSR, they don't believe my experience. Laugh then ignore.

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  • [–] 9 points 3 months ago (7 children)

    There's nothing a woker-than-thou hates more than someone speaking from their own lived experience.

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  • [–] 0 points 3 months ago (5 children)

    I imagine someone fairly well-off and someone in grinding poverty may have different lived experiences in the same economy.

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  • [–] 2 points 3 months ago* (4 children)

    True, but the lived experience of the well-off person is almost never the experience I've seen disregarded. It's usually trans people, especially trans people assigned female at birth and, more rarely, trans women/ people assigned male at birth who have lived as women for decades, people from former Soviet countries, and people living in abject poverty who're told their personal experiences are a psyop.

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  • [–] -1 points 3 months ago (3 children)

    Privilege is relative, below a certain threshold. Everyone thinks they're worst off. Truth is, they're coming for all of us, and it's no use any of us throwing another under the bus, when our turn to be sqashed is inevitable. Best to work together to permanently disable the bus.

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  • [–] 1 point 3 months ago (2 children)

    This doesn't really have any relation to what we're talking about here right now.

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  • [–] 4 points 3 months ago

    The problem with the "laugh then ignore" philosophy is that many who are attracted to power do so to abuse that power.

    As such, I keep running into moderators of leftist spaces on Lemmy who smack me for calling out abuses of the CCP, USSR, and DPRK. Specifically, lemmy.world/c/latestagecapitalism, lemmy.ml/c/memes, and one other that I can't remember and can't find because they deleted all of my comments on their community.

    When you have seas of downvotes and bad faith arguments combined with moderators brutally cracking down on dissent, it makes leftists look ridiculous to most. I (and apparently OP) are then frustrated enough to be compelled to spread the word that not every socialist is engaging in good faith. I don't know if that's more damaging to socialism than what they do or not, but it's the truth.

    TL;DR: Echo chambers suck.

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  • [–] 58 points 3 months ago

    MLs don't have much love for anarchists or any other sort of anti-authoritarians. Never had, looking back at history.

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  • [–] 9 points 3 months ago

    Nice double entendre.

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  • [–] 38 points 3 months ago

    Tankies are only lefty on the economical spectrum, they are also full-blown authoritarian bootlickers. Fucking disgusting parasites if you ask me, sick in the head all of them.

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  • [–] 15 points 3 months ago (5 children)

    also helps to remind those folks china and russia are capitalist.

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  • [–] 2 points 3 months ago* (1 child)

    I got banned from lemmy.ml for pointing out that the Dengists are state capitalists who literally came to power by repressing actual communists.

    A lot of people aren't aware of who won the Cultural Revolution. It wasn't the people calling for worker ownership of the economy.

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  • [–] 38 points 3 months ago* (20 children)

    Personally I don't consider authoritarians to be "leftist".

    Tankies and libs are both right-wing just with different imperial branding.

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  • [–] 12 points 3 months ago (13 children)

    I don‘t think that this attitude is productive. Every school of thought has the potential of turning authoritarian and attract people who just want power and influence over people.

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  • [–] 11 points 3 months ago (2 children)

    This fact is why anarchism is so appealing to me, they don't have all the answers but they've at least identified the problem: Authority.

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  • [–] 4 points 3 months ago (1 child)

    It's kind of also the biggest problem with anarchy. It still has a foundation of social contract, the idea that we're allowed to exist without authority. There really isn't anything that stops someone from building power and exerting it on others. No one wants to accept a despot over freedom but if someone rolls up to my farm in a tank and says they own it now, I'm not really in any position to say otherwise. In a hierarchy of need, living sits above liberty.

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  • [–] 0 points 3 months ago*

    That's why I can't be an anarchist. They're like the libertarians of the left. They're too idealistic. They never explain how they'll keep people from asserting power over others, and prevent nation states from forming, because it isn't possible without giving a different person similar power.

    I'll take an imperfect but stable system over one that collapses the second someone with bad intentions gains control over weapons or other means of exerting power.

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  • [–] 4 points 3 months ago (9 children)

    That's the edge democracy has, you can kick the motherfucker out.

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  • [–] 2 points 3 months ago (8 children)

    That edge cuts both ways though, the history of democracy dating back to its foundation is people who should never have been given power getting put in charge. How many early democracies become dictatorships? Even today, the US has been trying to shake off the parasitic powers that be for decades and they just keep getting stronger.

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  • [–] 5 points 3 months ago (6 children)

    Sure, but do you have a (credible) alternative?

    IMO we should work on democracy (wherever you live) and make it more grassroot and direct. Power to the people, and not just "vote every 3-4-5-6 years.

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  • [–] 2 points 3 months ago (4 children)

    No actually, that's my biggest frustration. Every single system fails to function as intended when you introduce people to it. Some will be bad actors to exploit the system for their gain. Some will be uninterested in participating and pick by habit. The tribalism of an area will inherently sway the results and it won't always be in everyone's best interest.

    Even on that grass roots level, it can be used poorly. A great example is my home town of Whitewater. When desegregation came to Kansas, the residents petitioned to keep it. When that failed, they took matters into their own hands and burned down and bulldozed most of the cheaper side of town in a proactive bid to limit the aforeability and availability for colored people who may consider moving there. Decades later, the town is still diverse and has never recovered economically. It had a model T showroom at one time and now can't keep a Hunts Brother's pizza in buisness.

    There isn't any political system where one liar with enough idiots can't ruin it for everyone.

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  • [–] 1 point 3 months ago (2 children)

    Socialism is credible and proven, except for when Democracy©️ crushes, sanctions, and embargos, to prove how it doesn't work.

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  • [–] 6 points 3 months ago (5 children)

    After Lenin positioned himself as opposite to "left-wing communism" and called it an infantile disorder, I guess Leninism being right-wing became explicit.

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  • [–] 3 points 3 months ago (3 children)

    Left and right are economic vectors up and down (authoritarian and freedom) are the ones to plot.

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  • [–] 4 points 3 months ago (2 children)

    "up and down" is a very recent thing

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  • [–] 44 points 3 months ago (5 children)

    Those aren't leftist spaces. They're propaganda places for China etc

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  • [+] -6 points 3 months ago (4 children)

    A leftist place doesn't magically become a chinese propaganda place whenever a few chinese propagandists show up there and raise their red flags. It's just an aspect of the whole thing.

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  • [–] 13 points 3 months ago (2 children)

    This sounds kind of like the "Nazis at a bar" problem.

    If you let 'a few' start hanging out at a bar, it becomes a Nazi bar.

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  • [–] 2 points 3 months ago (1 child)

    So, what's the solution? Ban them all?

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  • [–] 9 points 3 months ago

    Yes.

    I'm all for open and fluid communication, it's why I like this platform, but there needs to be a respect for the social contract. If the area is for the organization and discussion of a specific political format than joining with the intention of converting others or the area to a different format is a violation of that contract. It's the same situation as going into a meme channel and trying to talk people into making it about pet photos under the guise of believing your pet is memable.

    They can have their own booth at the conference and anyone interested will come naturally, they don't need to pretend to be someone else to trick the gulable.

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  • [–] 4 points 3 months ago

    I agree with the sentiment, absolutely, but I have to say I snorted a bit when I read 'leftist spaces have a lot of red flags' lol. Yea, kind of the flag of choice here lol (though I prefer Anarchist black or a combination of the two)

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  • [–] 6 points 3 months ago

    Not trying to defend people who trivialize the horrors of those regimes, but every space has a lot of red flags. It goes hand in hand with humans

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  • [–] 4 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago) (1 child)

    Humanity is a red flag, left, right, middle; what community of size isn't full of deceit and violation? Many people use organizations as tools to get what they want, regardless of what the cause is; religion, political, financial, it's always a fight against corruption, lies, and incompetence that never ends.

    Not one passes its own purity test.

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