I thought the title was a pun lol
post
Just an fyi, and speaking as an anarchist, I would NOT consider Proudhon a good example. Bro was a supporter of the Confederacy, as well as quite a few other very problematic stuff.
My biggest growth with leftism was just learning to let other well meaning people be wrong. I'm wrong most of the time but inviting other people to dunk on me never really fixed any of my issues so it probably wouldn't help anyone else either.
There's plenty of online space for people who think capitalism has to go but maybe we shouldn't slob off mass murderers and imperialists to make that happen. It's not a worldview we actually have to fight other internet leftists for. Especially since nothing done online is praxis.
When we see a tankie, we laugh and point, then we move on. There's no talking them out of it. I grew up in the USSR, they don't believe my experience. Laugh then ignore.
There's nothing a woker-than-thou hates more than someone speaking from their own lived experience.
I imagine someone fairly well-off and someone in grinding poverty may have different lived experiences in the same economy.
True, but the lived experience of the well-off person is almost never the experience I've seen disregarded. It's usually trans people, especially trans people assigned female at birth and, more rarely, trans women/ people assigned male at birth who have lived as women for decades, people from former Soviet countries, and people living in abject poverty who're told their personal experiences are a psyop.
Privilege is relative, below a certain threshold. Everyone thinks they're worst off. Truth is, they're coming for all of us, and it's no use any of us throwing another under the bus, when our turn to be sqashed is inevitable. Best to work together to permanently disable the bus.
This doesn't really have any relation to what we're talking about here right now.
The problem with the "laugh then ignore" philosophy is that many who are attracted to power do so to abuse that power.
As such, I keep running into moderators of leftist spaces on Lemmy who smack me for calling out abuses of the CCP, USSR, and DPRK. Specifically, lemmy.world/c/latestagecapitalism, lemmy.ml/c/memes, and one other that I can't remember and can't find because they deleted all of my comments on their community.
When you have seas of downvotes and bad faith arguments combined with moderators brutally cracking down on dissent, it makes leftists look ridiculous to most. I (and apparently OP) are then frustrated enough to be compelled to spread the word that not every socialist is engaging in good faith. I don't know if that's more damaging to socialism than what they do or not, but it's the truth.
TL;DR: Echo chambers suck.
I try to point out the errors, block and move on. I usually only succeed after a round or three.
MLs don't have much love for anarchists or any other sort of anti-authoritarians. Never had, looking back at history.
Tankies are only lefty on the economical spectrum, they are also full-blown authoritarian bootlickers. Fucking disgusting parasites if you ask me, sick in the head all of them.
also helps to remind those folks china and russia are capitalist.
I got banned from lemmy.ml for pointing out that the Dengists are state capitalists who literally came to power by repressing actual communists.
A lot of people aren't aware of who won the Cultural Revolution. It wasn't the people calling for worker ownership of the economy.
Personally I don't consider authoritarians to be "leftist".
Tankies and libs are both right-wing just with different imperial branding.

I don‘t think that this attitude is productive. Every school of thought has the potential of turning authoritarian and attract people who just want power and influence over people.
This fact is why anarchism is so appealing to me, they don't have all the answers but they've at least identified the problem: Authority.
It's kind of also the biggest problem with anarchy. It still has a foundation of social contract, the idea that we're allowed to exist without authority. There really isn't anything that stops someone from building power and exerting it on others. No one wants to accept a despot over freedom but if someone rolls up to my farm in a tank and says they own it now, I'm not really in any position to say otherwise. In a hierarchy of need, living sits above liberty.
That's why I can't be an anarchist. They're like the libertarians of the left. They're too idealistic. They never explain how they'll keep people from asserting power over others, and prevent nation states from forming, because it isn't possible without giving a different person similar power.
I'll take an imperfect but stable system over one that collapses the second someone with bad intentions gains control over weapons or other means of exerting power.
That's the edge democracy has, you can kick the motherfucker out.
That edge cuts both ways though, the history of democracy dating back to its foundation is people who should never have been given power getting put in charge. How many early democracies become dictatorships? Even today, the US has been trying to shake off the parasitic powers that be for decades and they just keep getting stronger.
Sure, but do you have a (credible) alternative?
IMO we should work on democracy (wherever you live) and make it more grassroot and direct. Power to the people, and not just "vote every 3-4-5-6 years.
No actually, that's my biggest frustration. Every single system fails to function as intended when you introduce people to it. Some will be bad actors to exploit the system for their gain. Some will be uninterested in participating and pick by habit. The tribalism of an area will inherently sway the results and it won't always be in everyone's best interest.
Even on that grass roots level, it can be used poorly. A great example is my home town of Whitewater. When desegregation came to Kansas, the residents petitioned to keep it. When that failed, they took matters into their own hands and burned down and bulldozed most of the cheaper side of town in a proactive bid to limit the aforeability and availability for colored people who may consider moving there. Decades later, the town is still diverse and has never recovered economically. It had a model T showroom at one time and now can't keep a Hunts Brother's pizza in buisness.
There isn't any political system where one liar with enough idiots can't ruin it for everyone.
Yeah for sure. That's why I'm a staunch proponent for democracy (and education, inclusion etc etc), everything else just breaks quickly because of those mentally ill bastards.
Socialism is credible and proven, except for when Democracy©️ crushes, sanctions, and embargos, to prove how it doesn't work.
Does socialism have an actually governing formation? I've only ever seen it as a guiding principle for other institutions.
Yeah this is pointing toward my view as well.
Non partisan, community or regional based, term limited, focused entirely on evidence, social needs, working for an electorate.
Tell me, who and how many had actual real power, when the United States was founded?
After Lenin positioned himself as opposite to "left-wing communism" and called it an infantile disorder, I guess Leninism being right-wing became explicit.
Left and right are economic vectors up and down (authoritarian and freedom) are the ones to plot.
"up and down" is a very recent thing
Id respectfully argue that freedom vs tyrany is a very old concept and this is just another way to express that
Those aren't leftist spaces. They're propaganda places for China etc
A leftist place doesn't magically become a chinese propaganda place whenever a few chinese propagandists show up there and raise their red flags. It's just an aspect of the whole thing.
At least when they start being the stereotype, that's where that goes.
This sounds kind of like the "Nazis at a bar" problem.
If you let 'a few' start hanging out at a bar, it becomes a Nazi bar.
So, what's the solution? Ban them all?
Yes.
I'm all for open and fluid communication, it's why I like this platform, but there needs to be a respect for the social contract. If the area is for the organization and discussion of a specific political format than joining with the intention of converting others or the area to a different format is a violation of that contract. It's the same situation as going into a meme channel and trying to talk people into making it about pet photos under the guise of believing your pet is memable.
They can have their own booth at the conference and anyone interested will come naturally, they don't need to pretend to be someone else to trick the gulable.
I agree with the sentiment, absolutely, but I have to say I snorted a bit when I read 'leftist spaces have a lot of red flags' lol. Yea, kind of the flag of choice here lol (though I prefer Anarchist black or a combination of the two)
Not trying to defend people who trivialize the horrors of those regimes, but every space has a lot of red flags. It goes hand in hand with humans
Humanity is a red flag, left, right, middle; what community of size isn't full of deceit and violation? Many people use organizations as tools to get what they want, regardless of what the cause is; religion, political, financial, it's always a fight against corruption, lies, and incompetence that never ends.
Not one passes its own purity test.


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