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[–] 46 points 4 months ago (5 children)

This argument against socialism has always made no sense, the only way it holds is as a critique of capitalism.

Money doesn’t disappear, either its circulation in a sustainable way…

Or someone is hoarding it.. like a capitalist.

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  • [–] 1 point 4 months ago (2 children)

    Yeah money actually does disappear. Banks don’t need to hold all of their deposits in reserves, they can lend them out. So 1 real dollar can act as multiples of that in the economy by people depositing and loaning it out in succession. This only works if there is confidence that borrowers can pay back their loans. When that confidence breaks down, as we saw in 2009, then businesses are unable to borrow for payroll and other expenses and the whole economy contracts. You can then try to print money to stimulate the economy, but that will lead to inflation.

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  • [–] 1 point 4 months ago (1 child)

    This is sometimes called fountain pen money and it usually not disappears money but is how new money is created.

    Banks can create new money with a proverbial stroke of a pen, lend it out and when the loan is paid destroy it again.

    The bank of England has a pretty honest flyer about it.

    https://www.bankofengland.co.uk/-/media/boe/files/quarterly-bulletin/2014/money-creation-in-the-modern-economy

    A quote specifically about this misconception:

    When households choose to save more money in bank accounts, those deposits come simply at th expense of deposits that would have otherwise gone to companies in payment for goods and services. Saving does not by itself increase the deposits or ‘funds available’ for banks to lend. Indeed, viewing banks simply as intermediaries ignores the fact that, in reality in the modern economy, commercial banks are the creators of deposit money.

    The total absurdity of this situation, is that its very common for such loan to be paid off with a new loan, which is called “refinancing”

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  • [–] 1 point 4 months ago

    Yeah but it isn’t something new. When you lend friends or family money, you still count that as your money and expect it to be paid back (whether with interest or not). But the person you loaned that money to also counts it as their money and spends it as needed. Ideally, the borrower is able to make better use of it than the lender, and the arrangement leads to a net positive for both parties.

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  • [–] 14 points 4 months ago

    Meanwhile, biggest cooperatively owned businesses around the world usually switched to that form of ownership due to withdrawal of state subsidies, like New Zealand's farmer cooperative, or Argentinian businesses where workers just all chimed in to buy out their "bankrupt" workplaces and set them back on their feet.

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  • [–] 8 points 4 months ago

    Silly rabbit, welfare is for the rich.

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  • [–] 7 points 4 months ago (6 children)

    Oh, you didn't hear? They do the most work of all, and have the hardest job.

    That's what they tell everyone constantly, anyway...

    They are the easiest people to replace with AI. Come on society, do the thing. Make this bullshit end.

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  • [–] 2 points 4 months ago (4 children)

    I get the sentiment but do you really want to spend your workday taking orders from an AI? maybe instead we can elect leaders in our companies who are real people and not exploitive monsters

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  • [–] 2 points 4 months ago (3 children)

    do you really want to spend your workday taking orders from an AI?

    Probably depends on the work I'm doing and the AI itself.

    I'd have no problem implementing AI driven solutions as long as they made sense and were good - honestly I might even have more respect for the AI than the CEO. At least one of them isn't pretending to be a morally upstanding member of society.

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  • [–] 1 point 4 months ago (2 children)

    honestly I might even have more respect for the AI than the CEO.

    That is a crazy stance to take. It's like saying you prefer Beezelbub over Satan. I mean, you want to give your self-agency over to a machine? Really?

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  • [–] 2 points 4 months ago (1 child)

    I didn't say I have to listen to it anymore than I listen to a human.

    I mean I'd rather not give my self agency away at all but almost all of us proletariat do on some level since we're wage slaves. I don't really care if it's an AI or a human CEO when it comes down to it they're interchangeable except one probably just is an intermediary between the AI and you at this rate where execs are slobbering over AI and eating up tech bro lies like candy. CEO probably just asking the AI anyways and saying what it says.

    Yes it's a wildly myopic view, and I'm being a little tongue in cheek, but in all reality I genuinely think executives are almost all dead weight once you get high enough in an org but your opinion may differ.

    So yeah doesn't really matter to me if the master is silicon or flesh if the result is all the same.

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  • [–] 1 point 4 months ago

    I genuinely think executives are almost all dead weight once you get high enough in an org but your opinion may differ.

    Sure, I mean the wide array of shitty execs we have nowadays certainly. But a strong project leader with the backing of the organization they lead is a powerful combination and I don't discount it when I think about how things should be run.

    In other words, I do think it's a good idea to have an especially qualified person "in charge" of getting shit done, but our current system of capitalist self-enrichment only works in a "broken clock is right twice a day" sorta way.

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  • [–] 6 points 4 months ago

    Sounds more like crapitalism to me tut tut tut

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  • [–] 5 points 4 months ago

    Clearly this is wrong.

    The last frame should say 95%.

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  • [–] 5 points 4 months ago (8 children)

    I dont get it, why dont everyone start their own companies and rake 100% of the profit for oneself, then?

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  • [–] 4 points 4 months ago (2 children)

    Economies to scale is a hell of a thing

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  • [–] 2 points 4 months ago (1 child)

    Pretending this is a good faith argument.

    Because the market is already saturated, capitalism is not the freedom of business, it is the freedom for business.

    No mom and pop can compete against walmart, they already have too much money, walmart is free to lower prices at locations around the mom and pop store until it runs out of business.

    One example because like... If it's in good faith you just straight up lack the prerequisite knowledge to discuss economics.

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  • [–] -1 points 4 months ago

    If the company owners aren’t making money they’ll shut down and we’ll all be out of a job so we should be happy they’re only charging eighty-five percent.

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  • [+] -17 points 4 months ago* (20 children)

    Hmm, the biggest problem I have with socialism is that you end up with government committees deciding who gets access to basic needs like food, water and medical care, when, where and how much. Attempts to plan out fair distribution for an entire country become brittle and inflexible, and result in scarcity and waste because human life is not static. Well-intentioned socialist governments become authoritarian out of the desire to control the behavior of the population in order to stabilize the plan, but the efforts to control inevitably create more instability.

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  • [–] 25 points 4 months ago (5 children)

    That is literally happening under capitalism. You buy health insurance, and a private Healthcare group motivated by profit decides if you get medical care.

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  • [–] -2 points 4 months ago (4 children)

    Hmm, and yet the US is not the only example of a capitalist nation with a health care system. The problem has more to do with regulatory capture. You can say that this is a consequence of capitalism, but then how do you explain other capitalist nations which do not have similar issues with their healthcare systems? There must be some aspect which is specific to the US, and personally I think it traces back to the degradation of antitrust enforcement under the Reagan administration, which allowed massive conglomerates to form.

    Blaming this specifically on capitalism is too narrow, it ignores the broader sociocultural issues that lead to the current situation. Capitalism as it is realized in the US is more a symptom of underlying issues than it is the core of the problem. Attempting to replace capitalism with a different economic system will not resolve the problem.

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  • [–] 4 points 4 months ago (3 children)

    I'd argue it's because the other countries have tempered capitalism with socialism to create strong social nets to protect people.

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  • [–] 0 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago) (2 children)

    USA has one of the worst examples of health care: 17% GDP spending on health care. It's not just the most expensive private health care system, it's the most expensive health care system.

    But it's also not a fully privatized health care system, or even the most privatized one. Roughly half of the insurance spending is public via Medicare, Medicaid, military, etc.

    Switzerland's and Netherland's systems can be viewed as more privatized (100% of insurances are via private sector, NL almost all hospitals are private), and are way more efficient than the US system.

    Looks like privatized health care + private insurance works the best, but it does seem to require some guardrails (which you might call socialism, I guess). But also devil's in the details and it's possible to do everything badly. I also wouldn't be too amazed if somebody managed to do fully socialized healthcare well. But I would be amazed if such a system stayed good longer than a few decades.

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  • [–] 2 points 4 months ago (1 child)

    Feel like you're missing a ton of context for the system in the NL which I think is the most likely model for folks in the USA to accept if we were picking another healthcare model out.

    Things like: there's a public fund that's paid into that covers end of life care and old age care. There's a ton of regulation and laws around how insurance companies operate and what they're allowed to bill for. There is a minimum standard of care and price ceiling all insurance companies must meet. There is a lot of oversight via the government ombudsman. There are subsidies for folks that have under x dollars to help them afford the basic plan (which all insurance companies have to follow).

    Basically the competition in the private insurance marketplace in the NL is driven by trying to undercut each other's prices since there is a price ceiling for services. Other ways they can compete are better network integration, apps, ease of use, etc etc. It's also driven by the hospitals themselves and what they can offer.

    Very much different than the USA.

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  • [–] 1 point 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago)

    Very much different than the USA.

    Yeah, exactly. Point being that there isn't just one way to do private healthcare, which means that just because one way of doing it is bad doesn't mean that others must be as well.

    Only sycophants use Grok.

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  • [–] 13 points 4 months ago* (9 children)

    Your one step away from reinventing communism and 2 from discovering decentralised anarchism as the real answer.

    Controlling a nation is power. The people who control the nation have more power than other citizens, they form a political class.

    Communism seeks to create a classless society but its main flaw (which is actually a reasonable perspective in historical context and the technology of then) is that it still held on to the idea of having a state, a centralised leadership.

    But technology has evolved, anyone can interact with any group through digital means. Anyone can share knowledge or document and publish problematic events in their local area.

    Building a network of decentralised neighbourhoods where all citizens are welcome to join the local political debates (and multi local joined sittings) is possible.

    There is no need why a few chosen people have to have all the power.

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  • [–] 4 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago) (1 child)

    Your one step away from reinventing communism and 2 from discovering decentralised anarchism as the real answer.

    Please learn to be less condescending. Stop assuming that people who have different opinions from your own are necessarily ignorant.

    With that out of the way, isn't "decentralized anarchism" redundant? what would centralized anarchism even be, other than a contradiction?

    But technology has evolved, anyone can interact with any group through digital means. Anyone can share knowledge or document and publish problematic events in their local area.

    OK, for the sake of argument let's assume that this works the way you believe, in a technical sense. Reality is more complicated than that, but we'll overlook that for the moment.

    1. Just because a person can share/publish doesn't mean that anyone else will bother giving them any attention. It's good that more voices are heard in the present, but there is also a lot more background noise. How much time do you spend reading comments on Facebook? Nextdoor? DeviantArt? Usenet? Webrings? There are 8 billion people on the planet, and ~8 billion active mobile phones. Ain't nobody got time for that.
    2. More importantly, you can't solve social problems with technical means.

    Building a network of decentralised neighbourhoods where all citizens are welcome to join the local political debates (and multi local joined sittings) is possible.

    I would like to ask you to watch the Adam Curtis documentary All Watched Over By Machines of Loving Grace. Curtis is highly opinionated and his documentaries are built to drive specific conclusions. What he presents is true, but not necessarily the whole truth, so please keep that in mind. Even so this is particularly relevant, especially episode 2, which describes various attempts to analyze and manage biology, ecology and society with computer systems.

    People have been trying such things since the 60s. They are misguided.

    There is no need why a few chosen people have to have all the power.

    All the power, no. However, it is also not possible to spread power out amongst every individual equally. For instance, where do you draw the age line of inclusion? Will 6-month-old infants be part of the discourse? 12-year-olds? What about 90-year-old dementia patients?

    Even if we can make some practical exclusions, it is still not effective to get everyone's opinion on everything. Task specialization and division of labor are more efficient in every context. In practice, if everyone is responsible for completing a particular task then no one is.

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  • [–] 2 points 4 months ago

    Please learn to be less condescending. Stop assuming that people who have different opinions from your own are necessarily ignorant.

    I wasn’t trying to be condescending, i ment that quite literally. Ironically, i feel like you’re being a little condescending here by quoting and dissecting my input like this. Sorry if i made you feel like i was attacking your input on the meme.

    I mean it more informational, not just for you but also for context to other people who are reading these comments. I am not trying to have an actual debate which for this topic is quite impossible in forum like thread format. Wed need a much bigger debate with many more people if we want to take this matter seriously, that's kinda what i hope to inspire. Not a solution but a direction to have people work on a solution long term rather then idling in the status quo.

    In the same vein you are correct that if you understand that anarchism is not simply “lawless chaos” that “Decentralized” is redundant, but many people still don’t know this so i add it as emphasis. Makes people who don’t know think twice about what is meant.

    I am not going to overlook that reality is more complicated than what a 5 minute comment can express. I am not solving this alone, neither is anyone. But you do seem to think about this topic in a level headed/intelligent way and i do appreciate your input and documentary recommendation. If we ever have these bigger debates irl i wish for you to be involved.

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  • [–] 2 points 4 months ago (3 children)

    A few people will always end up with all of the power, it's how its always been because that's how our species works. Having mechanisms for choosing these people peacefully is better than a free for all power grab.

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  • [–] 3 points 4 months ago (2 children)

    Saying concentrated power is human nature is weird. Humans are creative and social enough to do better.

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  • [–] 3 points 4 months ago

    I approve of the optimism that we can do better, with effort. However, that optimism cannot be blind if it is to be successful. The historical record demonstrates an overwhelming tendency for power to concentrate in the hands of individuals and small groups. Even with the best of intentions, people in positions of authority inevitably work to protect their authority, at everyone else's expense if necessary. They will convince themselves that they are right to do so, because no one else understands their work.

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  • [–] 1 point 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago)

    We only need to look at human history, and animals in general. The power of an individual is very limited, so those with shared interests group together for protection. The bigger and more powerful groups dominate the smaller and weaker ones and power naturally concentrates into the modern nation state, political party, corporation, etc. And whoever controls those groups holds the most power.

    Your perspective requires that all humans be willing and able to come to mutually acceptable compromises for any disagreement. But that's obviously not possible, there are many disagreements where humans can't just split the difference or are simply unwilling to make any compromise for whatever reason. And so power becomes the deciding factor.

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  • [–] 2 points 4 months ago (2 children)

    But bears roaming the streets...

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  • [–] 9 points 4 months ago (2 children)

    Well, that problem is exactly the same in capitalism, except the committee is composed of people called executives instead of people called politicians. Executives have even less accountability than politicians.

    Civil service bureaucracy can indeed become brittle and static, but at least it begins with the intention to serve the public rather than to make money. It works well in most democratic countries.

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  • [–] 3 points 4 months ago

    I mean free health care for all, everyone gets it, and gets what they need. Or our social Car Insurance with one single insurer. We all pay about the same, and discount brackets for safe years of driving. And rebates if they took in more premium then they paid out in claims.

    Where is the problem?

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  • 29 comments in c/memes@lemmy.ml view that post
    [–] 16 points 4 months ago* (7 children)

    This is double funny right now as uh... Private Equity more or less just... pulled most of their 'investments' out of about half of US AI datacenter build outs.

    Just literally directly because they ran out of other people's money.

    They've all been seeing like double the desired outflows, capital flight, that they can handle, and they've just literally been rewriting their own rules on the fly, all while acting like everything is fine.

    ... this is gonna make 07/08 look like the fucking prologue, the goddamned tutorial level.

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  • [–] 5 points 4 months ago (6 children)

    Where is the capital flying to?

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  • [–] [S] 9 points 4 months ago (4 children)

    A lot of it will get moved into physical assets like property. There's also been a huge investment boom in HK because people are realizing Chinese economy is more stable now. Similar situation with Singapore since Asia is expected to be doing better than the west thanks to China being the stabilizing force there.

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  • [–] 7 points 4 months ago (1 child)

    China is making so many moves right now, to set themselves up as a viable alternative to the the USD... they're doing some pretty serious amounts of gold hording (yes literally), and also seem to be setting up a rather extensive and robust system that would facilitate actual physical gold clearing...

    The US on the other hand is also ... there are at least rumors of basically gold backed 50 year bonds.

    https://talkmarkets.com/article/the-united-states-and-the-50-year-gold-bond-that-could-rewrite-the-rules-of-global-finance-1782459667

    ... and Europe is at the very least basically pulling all their gold that is physically held in the US, back to their countries, repatriating it.

    The fundamental structure and paradigm of the PetroDollar/Euro/Yen is now... basically breaking up, and at least right now, in the uncertain interim... it looks like everybody is taking inventory of their gold, and trying to figure out how to reposition their currency/bond/trade systems around being more directly backed by gold.

    How this will actually shake out... what the new equilibrium will be... multipolar world, or new global hegemon... or something in between and more complicated... basically impossible to say, but things are changing dramatically.

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  • [–] 3 points 4 months ago (1 child)

    that's also likely a good defense against stagflation, which the USD (and probably the EUR) are likely to see soon

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  • [–] [S] 9 points 4 months ago

    Exactly, the rich can see crashes coming early, so they pull out of liquidity to protect their assets. As a bonus, when the crash happens, they can swoop in and buy up the assets others are forced to let go on the cheap. So, each crisis ends up acting as a black Friday for billionaires and a massive wealth transfer to the top.

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  • [–] 3 points 4 months ago*

    If I thoroughly, and reliably knew the answer to that, I would be... lets say 'very well financially positioned'.


    Yogthos is certainly at least partially correct, but... where is all this money going?

    Its... Private Equity. Private Credit.

    The entire point is that via a mechanistic application of loopholes and usage of specific legal carve outs... you don't actually have to tell anyone nearly anything. The entire point is to obfuscate what is going on.

    ... At least some of the money is getting pulled out basically just to pay off debts that investors have that are now problematic.

    This is how a recession or depression actually mechanically happens -> because the entire system is built on loans which are built on loans which are built on loans...well, when some part of that fractal chain/web breaks, when some part of it cant reliable make payments anymore... the breakage spreads, as more and more people now need to cover obligations with actual cash, not promises of future cash.

    People call this 'the credit supercycle' or 'the business cycle', depending on the scope and time scale... these patterns play out fairly regularly, but predicting their timimg and extent with high precision is nearly impossible, because the total system is fundamentally chaotic, in the mathematical sense.


    However, not everybody is just purely panicking and pulling out to settle their obligations... many are repositioning. Its kinda like water in a box, a box where you can push up or pull down or certain points of its floor... the water, the capital, will tend flow away from risk of massive losses / or poor real* returns, and pool in areas of perceived, actually steady and reliable real* returns.

    • Where 'real' in this context means both adjusted for inflation and also international currency conversion rates.

    This entire process is largely opaque and horrendously complex.

    But you can look at it from the outside and describe rules that it does at least tend to follow.


    As far as I'm aware, at least some proportion of ... theoretically 'smarter' people are throwing their money into things like mining companies for rare earths, uranium, things whose stocks will almost be guaranteed to go up because the raw materials they extract will be a part of basically any technological civilization going forward from here.

    What else is almost guaranteed to get more expensive?

    Power, Food, Water.

    So, the theory would be roughly that 'smarter' money would get as close to the first step.of any process involved in providing or producing those things, as possible.

    ... such is the logic of capitalism at least as I see it, which also kind of means we are defacto accelerating the 'cyberpunk dystopia-fication' / 'techno-neofeudalism' thing, where any person or entity that more or less owns these kinds of companies... they become sort of like hegemonic guilds that states have to basically negotiate with as either equals or lessers.

    Corporate Wars, here we come.

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  • [–] 13 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago)

    The problem with Capitalism is eventually the imperial core runs out of third world labour and resources to pillage

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  • [–] 13 points 4 months ago

    Well the problem with fascism is you eventually run out of other peoples children so...

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  • [–] 11 points 4 months ago (2 children)

    Never mind that money ultimately belongs to the state anyway, and is only worth anything because if you don’t pay the state then it will do Bad Things™ to you.

    Not only is it impossible to “run out” of a currency that you control, it’s also not “other people’s”. So the only correct term in the whole phrase is “money”.

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  • [–] 6 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago) (1 child)

    I appreciate the critique, but no, money is not

    only worth anything because if you don’t pay the state then it will do Bad Things™ to you.

    That's "modern" (from 1905) monetary theory (MMT), which ignores that money is a commodity and can and did historically exist before states.

    Michael Roberts writes:

    Modern states are clearly crucial to the reproduction of money and the system in which it circulates. But their power over money is quite limited — and as Schumpeter said (and Marx would have said), the limits are clearest in determining the value of money. The mint can print any numbers on its bills and coins, but it cannot decide what those numbers refer to. That is determined by countless price-setting decisions by mainly private firms, reacting strategically to the structure of costs and demand they face, in competition with other firms.

    Marx argued that money in capitalism has three main functions: as a measure of value; as a means of exchange; and “money as money” which includes debt payments. Marx’s theorisation of money as a measure of value derives from his labour theory of value; and this is the main difference between Marx and the Chartalists/MMT supporters, who have no theory of value whatsoever.

    Money only has value if there is value in production to back it. Government spending cannot create that value — indeed some government spending can destroy value (consider the case of armaments, for example). Productive value is what gives money credibility. A productive private sector generates the domestic product and income that gives government liabilities credibility in the first place. When that credibility is not there, then trust in the state’s currency can disappear fast, as we have seen in Venezuela, Zimbabwe and Argentina.

    MMT essentially boils down to good old keynesianism in the end. It's still a thousand times better than neoliberalism of course, but merely reformist, not equipped to handle capitalism's crisis and not willing to transcend it.

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  • [–] 11 points 4 months ago
    [–] 10 points 4 months ago (1 child)

    Half of capitalism enjoyers I know complain that "communists" (anyone who complains about capitalism) are hypocrites because they "don't apply communism to their lives" by sharing their salaries and buying iphones and super expensive clothes.

    Ask them how one can "apply communism" when they live under a society that is capitalist, where any donation or salary sharing is effectively feeding capitalism and they'll just circle back to the initial complaint.

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  • [–] 3 points 4 months ago

    One way to do that, and no joke, is to start up and participate in local barter economies.

    A bunch of places I've lived in, especially with a large student population, would have communities where people who have surpluses of something, extra food, old furniture, can give it to people who need them.

    Ask yourself the question, what can you do to fulfill a need while preempting consumption, and you have an answer.

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  • [–] 5 points 4 months ago* (2 children)

    ' + money is a social construct '

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  • [–] 9 points 4 months ago (1 child)

    if the boss doesn't take your money someone else will

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  • [–] 2 points 4 months ago*

    And taxpayer subsidies while they are accountable to no laws

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  • [–] -1 points 4 months ago (1 child)

    @yogthos Anarchists in Spain also thought that capitalist bosses were useless. They ended up fucking up so bad that even commies panicked and stepped in to handle the things.That was the only time commies lost the gold medal. They regret it so bad that they haven’t been talking about it for all these decades.

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  • [+] -11 points 4 months ago (2 children)

    I feel like the actual "Average Capitalism Enjoyer" is someone making or reading memes online... On their phones.

    The enjoyment of Capitalism is made ambient by simply owning stuff Capitalism has produced. However here we have to say some things: Not all the systems or technology that enabled this were done for Capitalism in today's model, and most weren't.

    Society was a lot more creative and progressing much faster, and with more freedom before today's system of survival Capitalism, with it's prevelant race to the bottom morality which produces very little of value.

    Another iPhone, space ship, data center, or 5 cent T-shirt with custom slogan... These are the articles of modern Capitalism. They contain very little to most people. No one wishes to live and die for these "rewards", thus very few of us are enjoying this.

    The memes are broken.

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  • [–] 10 points 4 months ago

    today’s system of survival Capitalism

    it's not "today's system", this is not a different kind of capitalism we are living through; it's simply the logical continuation of capitalism.

    Capitalism means profiting from owning. This systematically means, as the meme says, "line goes up". The line must go up, otherwise owning stops being profitable, and capitalism stops. We're just at a point where the avenues to keep growth going are becoming harder and costlier to reach, and each time those avenues are explored, they make the next ones costlier. So we're all getting squeezed, both as workers (mass layoffs, multiple jobs etc), and as consumers (enshittification, product quality deterioration, price increases).

    This is unavoidable; European countries that are currently more livable than the US will inevitably face this as well, they just took the scenic route

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  • [–] 9 points 4 months ago

    Why is there this idea that personal property such as phones are specific to capitalism? Why does making or reading memes have anything to do with enjoying capitalism? Other social orders also allow for making memes and using phones.

    Although I do agree most people don't benefit from capitalism, only the top 1% do so yeah the meme doesn't really make sense in that respect.

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  • [+] -11 points 4 months ago (2 children)