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[–] 86 points 11 months ago* (25 children)

You know that episode of The Simpsons where Lisa hides the fact the town founder is a bad person because it'd make the town sad?

That is me trying to hold back that, upon research (reading the Wikipedia page), I found out that Fatima al-Fihriya is probably not a real person :(

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  • [+] 18 points 11 months ago (14 children)
  • [–] 14 points 11 months ago (10 children)

    This is a crazy take. Misinformation is not all of the sudden good when it has a positive outcome.

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  • [+] 1 point 11 months ago (4 children)
  • [–] 5 points 11 months ago (3 children)

    Yeah but why not just find someone who actually existed to be inspired by instead of a lie?

    “We don’t know so we might as well not bother learning” is also an incredibly wild take.

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  • [+] -3 points 11 months ago (2 children)
  • [–] 0 points 11 months ago (4 children)

    I get where they're coming from. It isn't that mis/dis-information is good. It's just that they aren't going to get the accurate information anyway.

    For example, who actually created this university? Can you tell me? Does it actually matter? If this story causes good outcomes, where otherwise there would be a void of information which could be filled by someone else, then the story that causes good is the best option.

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  • [–] 0 points 11 months ago (3 children)

    Yes. You can look it up and see. Or even read more comments further down talking about it.

    Yes it matters.

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  • [–] 0 points 11 months ago (2 children)

    You say "yes" as if that means something. How? What changes if we just leave the gap of knowledge unfilled?

    You didn't answer who created it. You did t say what would happen. You just said "yes" as if that alone is enough justification. What good does it do? If the gap is instead filled with mysoginist religious garbage, what's the benefit from telling people this isn't true?

    For people un-effected, fine. Let them know. For people who benefit from it, or who don't hurt others because of it, what is gained? This isn't answered by just saying "yes." Put more effort in or I assume you don't actually have any reason.

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  • [–] 0 points 11 months ago (1 child)

    What gap are you talking about? Yes you can look it up who created it.

    No I didn’t answer who created it because… you can look it up. The information exists.

    I don’t really need to put more effort into an answer because it doesn’t need it.

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  • [–] -1 points 11 months ago

    Lol. "You can look it up." That's the entire issue here. Looking it up it says it's the woman in the OP. However, she was only written about several centuries later and, according to Wikipedia at least, "her story has been hard to substantiate and some modern historians doubt her existence."

    If you think that's enough then you agree with me and this other person. The story, though we can't substantiate it, is good enough to keep telling it. It doesn't really matter that it may be wrong. Insisting instead that we don't really know who created it so shouldn't say anyone did isn't useful.

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  • [+] [S] 2 points 11 months ago (8 children)
  • [–] 42 points 11 months ago (6 children)

    I don't agree here. Truth is important. The fact that women haven't been visible in science is important. We need to explain why they weren't visible. Creating historical figures is comforting but if their existence is not reliably documented, we should keep explaining why such figures couldn't emerge, and why their absence is significant.

    Yes to shitposts, no to fabrications (this lady looks like one - but I suppose it was in good faith)

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  • [–] 10 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago) (2 children)

    What if the truth can't be known as Ibn Abi Zar only wrote on this 500 years later and archaeological evidence is not definitive but the story has inspired countless young women in the Islamic world to pursue higher learning?

    If an unverifiable story accomplishes the outcome of improving the visibility of women in science and higher education in general, how should we judge that? Would only 100% verifiable truth still take all precedence?

    Finally, we have to ask why did this story (if it really is just a story) capture so many imaginations? What cultural current at the time made this gain popularity? Was there a thirst for women to be seen in this light that he was looking to quench?

    The humanities may be considered a soft science but it's just as important as science in my view.

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  • [–] 2 points 11 months ago (1 child)

    Or, if she did exist but almost nobody heard about her in the 500 years after her death, why would that have happened?

    (Not taking a position on her existence, but thinking about Hatshepsut and many women whose accomplishments were ignored, hidden, or credited to men)

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  • [–] 4 points 11 months ago*

    Is it possible they did hear and it was not written down?

    Or it was written down and someone had reason to destroy the evidence?

    You've mentioned patriarchal orthodoxy. Could it be that there were powerful individuals that did not like the idea of a woman being credited with this accomplishment?

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  • [+] [S] 4 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago) (2 children)