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[–] 128 points 5 months ago (32 children)

"it was actually a PY32F002B, powered by a 24 MHz Arm Cortex M0+ processor. The chip also carried 24KB of flash storage and 3KB of static RAM"

To process a single button.

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  • [–] 56 points 5 months ago* (18 children)

    Because an existing SoC at scale is cheaper than a custom ASIC.

    You see this all the time, custom keyboard running ARM+Linux, SmartNICs using RISC-V cores/FPGAs instead of ASIC accelerators. Even Microsoft refuses to commit to ASICs for network processing in their DCs and use FPGAs instead.

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  • [–] 35 points 5 months ago (17 children)

    A vape is a battery connected to a button connected to a heating coil. You might want a single transistor. You don't need a software platform.

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  • [–] 30 points 5 months ago (2 children)

    Sure, if you weren't competing with every other vape out there that has things like variable voltage settings (at least 3), a pre-heat feature, the ability to turn on/off with 5 presses, or to turn off automatically after 5-10 minutes without use, a low battery indicator, a charging indicator, a broken coil indicator...

    Hmm, seems like you need a lot more than a battery, heating coil, button, and single transistor.

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  • [–] 6 points 5 months ago

    With the major caveat that dispos dont offer more than 2 of those features at best. Almost all those features you specify are on reusable devices. There are going to be some that do have those additional features, but at a price point that makes them nearly as or more costly than a reusable device.

    The only IC you need for a disposable really, is a BMS, and a temp sensor (technically a timer so it also doesnt over draw, but timer ICs are built into everything) so it doesn't willfully light itself on fire in unusual circumstances.

    All that to say: there is effectively 0 difference between most disposables released today and reusables, with the sole exception that you cant refill or recharge them. There should be no device with a battery deliberately intended to be thrown away, for anything, save for medical uses.

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  • [–] 3 points 5 months ago

    You’re sooooo right, check my response to that guy. I was into vaping years ago and loved mechanical vaoes, which were legit just a battery, heating coil mounted to a platform, button, and conductive tube. Super simple devices, so easy!

    Except they’re INSANELY DANGEROUS! I loved them but I’ve had friends treat them carelessly and they WILL start on fire or even explode if not vented. You need a thorough understanding of Ohm’s law, batteries’ amperage limits, how to rewrap batteries with nicks in the wrap, and to never leave them unattended even with manual locking rings.

    The person you replied to mentions adding a transistor which would do nothing. Add some more bits and just like you said, you’re competing with fully functional vapes with all those features and they’re cheap as hell. The chips cost nearly nothing, so that’s the route they go. Those vapes aren’t impervious to blowing up, but they’re much safer than simple mechanical vapes.

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  • [–] 28 points 5 months ago

    There is also a battery management system as well.

    M0 processors are dirt cheap, especially in bulk.

    They probably have a BMS library that takes a few Kb of flash.

    The time it would take to make the design cost effective wouldn't be worth it.

    Slap a less than a dollar mcu and be done with it.

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  • [–] 9 points 5 months ago (7 children)

    Disclaimer: I don't smoke anything, so I don't know any details.

    Wouldn't a button connected to a heating coil be a fire hazard? Is there no automatic shut-off based on temperature? If you add enough safety features, it might end up costing about the same as an embedded SoC.

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  • [–] 7 points 5 months ago (5 children)

    All it would need is a thermal fuse/cutoff, like those in portable heating appliances (air fryers, grills etc.). I wonder what's needed to include a 10 second on & 30 seconds disabled timer, maybe it's cheaper

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  • [–] 6 points 5 months ago (2 children)

    I wonder what’s needed to include a 10 second on & 30 seconds disabled timer, maybe it’s cheaper

    555 timer and a transistor or two, I think?

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  • [–] 2 points 5 months ago* (1 child)

    Digipart is showing me price for PY32F002B with a minimum purchase of 5000 as less that $0.10 (not the factory price, just the cheapest store).

    The price for the cheapest NE555 (random manufacturer implementation of a 555) variant in Digipart is $0.13

    (Granted, you also need at least a crystal and 2 caps, plus 1 power filtering cap per power line for the microcontroller, but those are all cheap)

    It's ridiculous how modern microcontrollers are so stupidly cheap that even though they can run a lot more digital logic (in the form of software running in them) they almost always beat using older and much simpler digital parts even for something as simple as this.

    Even microprocessors are getting stupidly cheap: somebody recently pointed me out the Allwinner F1C100s, which is about the smallest microprocessor that can run Linux, and it costs $2 in bulk to the point that some embedded engineer has made a business card with one running Linux which he just gives away.

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  • [–] 0 points 5 months ago

    You’re 100% correct. I have mechanical vapes—no safety cutoff, just an 18650 in a conductive tube with wire coils attached to posts. They’re amazing, and they’re extremely dangerous. Turning one into a protected vape with basic features like wattage adjustment? Way cheaper and easier to go SoC!

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  • [–] 9 points 5 months ago

    I used to be into vaping and a big mechanical vape fan. I still have all of my old mech vapes! Those were what you’re thinking of—a button, a conducive body, and a coil or two mounted to a post. You pop an 18650 in, no transistor or resistors needed. You adjust your wattage by changing the way you wrap your coils, and your wire gauge. Generally I’d like to run around .2 ohms, which pushes about 18-20 amps out of the 18650s.

    These are NOT devices you want in the hands of regular people lawl. I’ve had friends in years past love how my setup was and get similar vapes for themselves. I’ve seen a burned-down backpack (RIP, all of his adderall XR), a table almost catch fire, and burnt carpet. No explosions because I told people “don’t get one of these, but if you’re not going to listen to me, for the love of glob make sure it’s vented.”

    Anyway, yeah no way anyone should have these except electronics enthusiasts. Even with locking rings, they can just start firing if the person using it isn’t super careful. Nice batteries rated for 30a pulse are 2USD more than the garbage batteries that love to vent or explode.

    You add in a transistor, that’s not gonna do anything. You add in a couple more things for protection and your cost is higher than it would have been by getting one of the chips in OP’s article, and you don’t have a nice interface for adjusting wattage and checking battery level and charging via USB and all that fun shit.

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  • [–] 3 points 5 months ago (2 children)

    i disagree with the single transistor. overcharge prevention requires something more (i am not a batteriologist don't ask me what. i'd do it with a tesla coil because that'd look cooler)

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  • [–] 2 points 5 months ago (1 child)

    I was assuming it was disposable (as so many are) and therefore no charging circuit.

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  • [–] 1 point 5 months ago*

    Huh. The disposables I am occasionally "forced" to get (put it in a 510 thread gramma) have charging ports. I usually have to charge once or twice to get through the full gram.

    That being said, the good local dispo just rebranded and gave me a bunch of 510 batteries with the old name on them. These batteries are fantastic and look about the same size as the server in the article

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  • [–] 2 points 5 months ago

    There is a little more to it, pressing the button 5 times turns it on and off. Three times often lets one cycle through power settings. But yeah, anything more than a very minimal programming is frankly suspicious.

    It could be a lot is used to get the charge right idk.

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  • [–] 20 points 5 months ago* (3 children)

    Well the PY32F002B (costing a few cents) even though it has a 32-bit (entry level) ARM core @ 24MHz is literally cheaper than older and less powerful microcontrollers.

    Granted, if you don't do anything else than react to a push button it's still cheaper to use discrete electronic components than a microcontroller, but given that this device has a LiPo battery (meaning there's battery control involved) and judging by the picture a USB-C connector, there's probably a bit more digital logic in it, by which point a 3 cent microcontroller plus a cheap SMD crystal and some caps is cheaper than using discrete components.

    The domain of embedded systems has evolved to the point that it's the best option for almost everything in consumer electronics, mainly because at the lower end there are so many stupidly cheap and easy to use choices were you don't run an OS in it but instead just a single block of single-threaded code directly on the bare metal accessing registers directly.

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  • [–] 11 points 5 months ago (1 child)

    Temperature control, likely something to keep track of how much is left in the device, and I’m betting I’m forgetting something.

    I doubt discreet electronics can cut it at that point.

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  • [–] 4 points 5 months ago* (2 children)

    Yes, where "process" means measuring instantaneous changes in airflow as the user inhales (or doesn't), and regulating a heating coil accordingly by running actual program code - which requires a controller to run it and memory to store it in. I mean when you click "Reply" on this page all it has to do is process one button, but that involves a lot.

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  • [–] 2 points 5 months ago* (1 child)

    There were couple series of: full lcd screen, bt connected to smartphone for notifications and a speaker versions. Plus the rechargeable battery and usb c charging port (obviously).
    It was selling about 35 bucks.
    Forgot the game one: had controller buttons and 3 games: pacman, tetris and a lying shooter inbuilt. With full lcd and speaker. (Thus wasnt bt connected tho) Price was similar.

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  • [–] 33 points 5 months ago

    In my mind, nothing with a circuit board is disposable. Pains me to see it.

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  • [+] 25 points 5 months ago (1 child)
  • [–] 65 points 5 months ago (36 children)

    why does a glorified heater connected to a battery need any silicon attached to it?

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  • [–] 86 points 5 months ago (33 children)

    To control the amount of voltage used in making the heat and not immediately burst into flames, for one.

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  • [–] 67 points 5 months ago (11 children)

    It is interesting to see old tech having clever solutions for stuff like this, these days the answer is 98% of the time is to slap a CPU on it.

    It's boring!

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  • [–] 28 points 5 months ago (10 children)

    Wait til you hear about all the different technologies we use to generate electricity

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  • [–] 27 points 5 months ago (4 children)

    99% spinning a generator and 1% direct solar panels

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  • [–] 10 points 5 months ago (3 children)

    Hey, hasn't that panel number been going up lately?

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  • [–] 4 points 5 months ago (2 children)
  • [–] 13 points 5 months ago (1 child)

    You're right! Sometimes we let the kinetic energy of the liquid water itself spin the turbine, when we're feeling freaky.

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  • [–] 7 points 5 months ago (17 children)

    Doesn't that just need a voltage regulator? It's disposable so you don't never need to concern yourself with charging.

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  • [–] 11 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago) (14 children)

    A lot of them have selectable voltage/power levels as a "feature", which is easier to do via a mcu PWM controll than discrete electronics.

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  • [–] 7 points 5 months ago (13 children)

    yeah it's more efficient this way but all you need is ne555 + mosfet tho? still no need for it to be turing complete

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  • [–] 11 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago) (3 children)

    Yes, but think about it like you're a Chinese manufacturing engineer with only basic electronics education. You COULD do that design, build out the pcb, custom tool it to fit your plastic housing, etc etc.... Or you could go to the manufacturer down the street who already makes pre designed voltage reg MCU's on a board and spend like, 20 minutes in an IDE to code the specific voltage levels and button presses.

    When production volume and turnaround time is the only things that matter in this shovel waste crap, "wasting" silicon is less expensive financially than building out the optimal solution.

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  • [–] 6 points 5 months ago (1 child)

    my guess would be it's a parts commonality thing, it's not hard to make it the old way, there are datasheets for it too. sure you could probably make tiny and cheaper (30x10mm? maybe smaller) analog board with two chips and mosfet working as pwm controller and current limiter, but it'll have different passives for different battery sizes and heater powers. or you could make one design with optional usb port that you might just not solder on, and depending on model you just put different firmware inside

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  • [–] 5 points 5 months ago

    The old way is actually the analog style you've mentioned, but that was the very early days of ecigs well before they became mass market, the cottage industry modding scene had no hope of creating sophisticated microcontrollers and the charger wasn't even USB, it was a DC jack & plug. Lavatube was the first time we had that kind of microcontroller regulation & then the DNA15 and DNA20 came out, got cloned by China and that changed the game forever.

    The problem with the older way is consumers understand watts alone as a relatively consistent measurement of power much better than they would the relation between voltage, resistance & current draw. They didn't want to learn Ohm 's Law back then and wouldn't want to know about it now. Microcontrollers simplified that massively.

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  • [–] 2 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago)

    Designing a board to run a microcontroller like that is actually pretty simple.

    I've done it for fun with a couple similar microcontrollers, and whilst I'm an EE by training I don't do it professionally plus my training is from before embedded system, so I count as a Junior EE for that.

    I'm pretty sure that even a freshly graduate Chinese EE can even on their own figure out the general recipe for integrating something this (following the datasheet, add crystal + load caps, plus about 1 caps each power pin for power filtering plus 1 global power filtering cap, plus possibly a pull-down/up resistor on the RESET pin) in a week or two and then for subsequent projects it will be feasible to do it in a few days.

    Really, there's other shit in there (say, battery management) that's more work to figure out than how to add and place the parts for an entry level ARM microcontroller to work.

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  • [–] 4 points 5 months ago

    I was just thinking that yeah again all it needs is some basic components. Like how a light bulb or fan might have multiple power settings but I don't expect them to be able to run doom.

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  • [–] 2 points 5 months ago (2 children)

    A search in Digipart shows the cheapest price of this microcontroller as $0.10 whilst the cheapest price of the NE555 is $0.13

    It really is THAT ridiculous.

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  • [–] 1 point 5 months ago (1 child)
  • [–] 2 points 5 months ago*

    Yeah, it doesn't make much since if you think in terms of how many transistors are needed to implement each of them as the microcontroller probably uses hundreds of thousands more transistors than a 555.

    That said, given reasonably recent processes die size for both are probably pretty close (I reckon most of the size of a modern 555 die would be the points to place the wires to the package) and with pretty similar yields (pretty close to 100%)

    I wouldn't be surprised if the reason has something to do with economies of scale since a cheap microcontroller can pretty much be used for the same things as a 555 and a whole lot more than that, so it makes sense more of the former are manufactured than of the latter, plus I bet the process generation used in making the microcontroller is probably more recent and hence one where there are more fabs operating. This latter reason would also explain why this more recent 32-bit microcontroller is actually cheaper than older 8-bit ones with less built-in memory and fewer peripherals (such as the ATTiny ones).

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  • [–] 1 point 5 months ago (2 children)

    ne555

    Thanks for the interesting read. Real nifty little timing/switching circuit!

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  • [–] 2 points 5 months ago (1 child)

    it's kinda dogshit but for this application it (cmos version) would be good enough. or better than that, there are dedicated pwm signal generators. i meant this thing in terms of complexity needed

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  • [–] 3 points 5 months ago

    It was a good insight into how the lightbulb dimming tech of the 80s/90s worked. Also why the dimmer switches back then were so dangerous with the capacitor likely just a few mm's away from the light switch which might not have been properly wired because UK homes back then didn't run a neutral back from the switch, but daisy-chained the switch and the bulb together and then ran the neutral back from the bulb

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  • [–] 2 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago) (2 children)

    ok fine i'd put there a current limiter which you can make with 2 transistors and a diode. no need for an entire microcontroller. it's often included with batteries these days anyway

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  • [–] 5 points 5 months ago* (1 child)

    I believe lithium ion batteries need custom chips just to charge and discharge smartly

    Shit, even connecting to modern USB c to negotiate voltage you need a controller

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  • [–] 1 point 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago)

    i think you can get away with resistors when you can work with 5V, up to 1.5A. lithium batteries need current limiter in series with voltage limiter, and this alone can be made in a very simple way, unless you want to know when battery is charged, or if you want extra efficiency that smps gives you, but this only makes sense for larger batteries (phone-sized and up) or when you want to handle everything to charger and connect battery to charger directly. then i think you need controller

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  • [–] 12 points 5 months ago

    It's probably cheaper and simpler to modify (say you suddenly want it to turn on when you click 3 times) to use a 0.1€ chip than to figure out how to do it and build it with discrete components.

    20 years ago I was all "computer (chips) can do everything! We can use them everywhere! Replaceable, reprogrammable, fantastic!"

    And no one cared.

    Now they are everywhere and it's just a fucking mess 😔

    Maybe 20 years from now the EU will have forced standards onto everything and you can (again) fix your dishwasher (and start it from work!!1!).

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  • [–] 79 points 5 months ago (15 children)

    Reusing them, even in small experimental projects, underscores a broader sustainability opportunity.

    Bigger opportunity would be banning this shit.

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  • [–] 6 points 5 months ago (14 children)

    outright bans just allow black markets to flourish. harm reduction and public safety campaigns would go much further

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  • [–] 57 points 5 months ago (13 children)

    We wouldn't be banning vaping, we'd be banning disposable vapes.

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  • [–] 40 points 5 months ago (5 children)

    As someone who vapes quite a bit, I would genuinely love to see this. Disposables are an absolute shitshow and never should have existed in the first place.

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  • [–] 11 points 5 months ago (3 children)

    Seriously. I struggle to fathom how running out for disposables is even slightly more convenient than refilling a proper tank every so often and replacing the coil. It tastes better, lasts longer and makes much less waste.

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  • [–] 8 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago) (1 child)

    I think it's the marketing of it. A decent amount of people I've talked to genuinely don't know that there's a reusable option. This also changed when the tobacco industry got involved. Vaping used to have more of a culture of cessation. It was talked about how you could transition from cigs at a higher nicotine level, then bring it down until you're vaping zero nic, then quit that. I barely hear anyone talk about the quitting pipeline anymore. I don't think it's an accident, I think it's intentional.

    Edit: I also think it's the fact that you only have to buy one thing, and the 3 things (device, coils, juice) aren't available in every gas station like disposables are. And the user experience - open the box and it starts right up, no refills, all it needs is a charge once in a while. People are really fucking lazy, by nature. But the cost of all those conveniences is indebted tenfold upon the environment, as destruction and waste.

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  • [–] 3 points 5 months ago

    I can't argue with that. I started to preemptively keep myself OFF of cigs (entire family smokes and I knew I would eventually pick up the habit). For a while now, most of the talk around it I've heard is just whether or not it's cool or cringe rather than how it can be used to quit smoking.

    Maybe the disposables wouldn't be so egregious if you could keep the battery like you used to be able to and just replace the disposable tanks. I think that's what bothers me the most. We had an okay system before that wasn't really complicated and wasn't NEARLY as wasteful.

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  • [–] 8 points 5 months ago (4 children)

    This, cartridges make me feel dirty, let alone wasting a entire li-ion cell too.

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  • [–] 3 points 5 months ago

    There are some shops that will actually collect the vapes and send them back to the manufacturer for recycling. But it's less common than it used to be, which frustrates me to no end, it should be the reverse if anything.

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  • [–] 0 points 5 months ago* (2 children)

    It makes you feel dirty, but the question is do you still do it anyway - and if the answer is yes, that's the problem. because that's what drives the whole industry.

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  • [–] 1 point 5 months ago (1 child)

    Individuals having desires is not "the problem". That would be corporations having free reign to behave however the fuck they want, so long as they can pay the fed.

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  • [–] 1 point 5 months ago

    There's more than one problem. Even if politicians weren't bribey and Citizens United didn't give corps a license to bribe them, we would still have pollution and other problems because individuals choose convenience over doing the right thing - which is "the" problem I meant.

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  • [–] 21 points 5 months ago (10 children)
  • [–] 4 points 5 months ago (8 children)

    You can run Doom on a literal potato

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  • [–] 4 points 5 months ago* (6 children)

    But not on a Neo Geo!

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4f1-7c6WX10

    TL;DW - the Neo Geo has a uniquely bad architecture for FPS games making them nearly impossible to get working on the console.

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  • [–] 2 points 5 months ago (2 children)

    That's being changed, however, as a bunch of determined devs are using raycasting to go around the console's limitations, being heavily optimized to run SNK's arcade titles.

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  • [–] 1 point 5 months ago (2 children)

    I have seen people run Doom on a pregnancy test, and you are telling me that the Neo Geo can't run it!?

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  • [–] 1 point 5 months ago* (1 child)

    That video is a hoax. It's a small screen inserted into a pregnancy test, cables run out the side which is never brought into frame.

    It seems since I have made this post that a huge amount of progress has been made in getting FPS games running on the neogeo.

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  • [–] 2 points 5 months ago

    I'm curious who your sole downvoter was. Was it a potato producer that dislikes gaming ? Perhaps a lemon farmer who feels their fruit could run doom on 4k. Was it someone who purchased a $5000 dollar rig only to find out they could have bought a singular potato? I guess we'll never know

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