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[+] 102 points 5 months ago (15 children)
  • [+] -27 points 5 months ago (14 children)

    Truth is entirely subjective because all observations are subjective.

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  • [–] 23 points 5 months ago (8 children)
  • [+] 11 points 5 months ago (1 child)
  • [–] 4 points 5 months ago (6 children)
  • [–] 6 points 5 months ago (5 children)

    The whole truth?! At this time of year, at this time of day, in this part of the country, localised entirely within your brain?

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  • [+] 10 points 5 months ago (4 children)
  • [–] 4 points 5 months ago* (2 children)

    What if someone doesn't recognize it as a country? Or what if they believe that there's no north america, that there's only one american continent?

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  • [–] 2 points 5 months ago (-1 children)

    truth=facts. facts are objective. it’s a fact that the USA is a country in north America. there is no disputing that.

    Not trying to say that everything is subjective, but that in particular is kind of a bad example.

    Countries are socially constructed. The US is something that only exists so long as people agree that it does. There is no objective, material way of determining where one country ends and another begins.

    In fact, there was quite a bit of disputing that historically. Prior to the American Civil War, lots of people said that the US was not a country but a union between countries, they were called "states" after all, and it was common to say "The United States are" rather than "The United States is." There are still successionists today who argue for that interpretation. To say that the US is objectively a country means that there must be something in material reality that we can point to to prove that one interpretation is correct and the other is incorrect. What is that thing?

    Whatever that thing is would have significant implications for how we see the world and look at other disputes, whether we're talking about Spain and Barcelona, the UK and Scotland, China and Tibet, or Israel and Palestine. For example, if you say that historically, most US secessionists supported slavery and therefore they lacked moral character and the position is illegitimate, then it follows that what states exist is a function of the moral character of their supporters, and that seems to be adding lots of assumptions and moving away from any sense of objectivity.

    "The US exists" is much more subjective than something like "This chair exists." With the latter, you could argue that grouping a collection of atoms into the category of "chair" is arbitrary and there's no way of determining when an atom stops being a part of "chair," but that's much more pedantic than socially constructed concepts that don't really have a physical essence.

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  • [+] 3 points 5 months ago
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  • [–] 2 points 5 months ago (-1 children)

    people created the ideas of countries, then made a list of them. USA is on that list.

    People? Which people? If I get a bunch of people and declare a micronation within what the US considers it's borders, is that objectively a country or not? Or suppose I convince a bunch of Americans that Germany isn't really a country, does it then cease to be a country despite what the Germans themselves believe?

    In any case, I would think that if something falls under the standard of, "This is true because a bunch of people say it is, even though there's nothing physical you can point to to prove it" then it seems somewhat absurd to call that an "objective fact" What do "objective" and "subjective" even mean, then?

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  • [+] -1 points 5 months ago
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  • [–] 3 points 5 months ago* (-1 children)

    I see, so you're only interested in asserting your own philosophical positions, not examining or defending them in any way.

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  • [+] 0 points 5 months ago
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  • [–] 2 points 5 months ago (-1 children)

    Apparently? You keep making philosophical assertions.

    You don't get to assert your philosophical views and then say, "I'm not interested is discussing philosophy" to avoid examination and criticism of those views.

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  • [+] 0 points 5 months ago
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  • [–] 2 points 5 months ago (-1 children)

    Yes.

    Not trying to say that everything is subjective, but that in particular is kind of a bad example.

    I just think you're being dismissive, while setting your own ideas as being apart from philosophy.

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  • [+] 0 points 5 months ago
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  • [–] 1 point 5 months ago (-1 children)

    But you're explaining it with such a bad example that it undermines the whole point, it's like if you said, "Some things are just objective facts, like which poems are good." That to me indicates that it's not really a simple concept at all, you just don't see the depth because you haven't examined it. Being unwilling to examine it, framing that examination as "the bottomless argument of philosophical truth," only reinforces that. If you're not willing to examine the question, then don't assert that you know the answer in the first place.

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  • [+] -1 points 5 months ago
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  • [–] 1 point 5 months ago (-1 children)

    Don't try to explain things you neither understand nor care about then.

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  • [–] 3 points 5 months ago

    I'm 14 and this is deep.

    Sure, we can think there's no way to actually know anything because your mind could have made up everything that happened before this moment. That's a stupid way to interact with the world though. It doesn't help you do anything thinking that way and only makes everything pointless, including conversing with you for people who don't even believe this.

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  • [+] 56 points 5 months ago* (50 children)
  • [–] 17 points 5 months ago (3 children)

    Personally, I don’t believe in football.

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  • [–] 11 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago) (23 children)

    I doubt you've come across someone who claims that all truth is subjective all the time in all scenarios.

    The example you give isn't an example of subjective truth, it's an example of wilful/conscious control of reality, which isn't the same thing.

    I also doubt you've met anyone that claims truth is subjective to their will at any time they choose.

    It's entirely possible, but unlikely.

    Someone on earth vs someone on the ISS have different gravitational experiences for instance.

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  • [+] 6 points 5 months ago (15 children)
  • [–] 11 points 5 months ago

    Someone on earth vs someone on the ISS have different gravitational experiences for instance.

    The experience is different because the person in the ISS is simply not close enough to Earth to be subjected to Earth's gravity, in any practical amount. But that doesn't mean gravity stopped existing for them.

    Ooh, time for science pedantry! The ISS is plenty close enough to Earth to experience almost the same gravity from the planet as on its surface, which is why it has to be orbiting at such speed - falling sideways fast enough and at the right angle so as not to come crashing down!

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  • [–] 6 points 5 months ago*

    The experience is different because the person in the ISS is simply not close enough to Earth to be subjected to Earth's gravity, in any practical amount.

    It sounds like someone still hasn't played KSP! Play it! It's great. You'll learn a lot, and you'll have fun doing it.

    Stuff doesn't stay in orbit because there isn't gravity. It stays there because it's moving sideways while it's falling down, so it doesn't hit the thing it's orbiting. Without gravity it'd be able to just sit in space wherever it wants. Rockets mostly don't go up, they go sideways. There wouldn't be a geosyncronus orbit as all orbits would allow you to just sit above any location you want. A geosyncronus orbit is one that the amount it has to move sideways is, in degrees from the center of earth, the same amount the earth rotates.

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  • [–] 2 points 5 months ago (9 children)

    I wish I could say I've never came across this sort of muppet. But… *sigh*

    Yeah...

    Wilful control of reality in this case requires truth to be subjective; and conversely, if truth is subjective you can control reality. You're right they aren't the same thing, but they're clearly tied.

    Not really....to any of that.

    There's no reason gravity control requires a subjective truth.

    An unusual level of reality control could exist within an objectively truth based system. It would just have to adhere to the constraints.

    Perhaps you mean omnipotence? I'm not sure on that one either, but definitionally it usually implies complete control, im not sure if that's within a fixed system or not.

    Reality control and subjectivity can be tied if an example ties them somehow, but it's not a given.

    The experience is different because the person in the ISS is simply not close enough to Earth to be subjected to Earth's gravity, in any practical amount. But that doesn't mean gravity stopped existing for them.

    Yep, that's why I went with gravitational experience instead of one having gravity and the other not.

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  • [+] 5 points 5 months ago (8 children)
  • [–] 2 points 5 months ago* (7 children)

    Let me put it this way: is the statement "there's a phenomenon called «gravity», experienced by all massive bodies, that accelerates them in relation to other massive bodies" epistemically true?

    Scientifically, maybe? Because that's what the scientific method is, best approximations given the knowledge we currently have.

    But let's assume yes for the purposes of this reply.

    If truth was subjective, the answer would be "true" or "false" depending on the subject.

    And context.

    Same subject different circumstances, different gravitational forces.

    For those whom the answer is "false", this means they would not experience the phenomenon, even in situations other subjects would; e.g. near Earth.

    That's a binary interpretation of a non-binary system.

    But again, for the purposes of this reply, sure.

    That implies they'd have at least some control over experiencing gravity, because they could simply say "it's now true for me" and fall, or "it's now false for me" and stop falling.

    There's a big assumption there that this is a binary.

    Gravity control, doesn't have to be binary.

    It doesn't even have to be direct, they could achieve the same effect by increasing or decreasing mass.

    But let's say it's magic, direct control.

    In an objective system where gravity exists it would conceptually be possible to control the level of gravity acting upon yourself without turning it on or off fully.

    In a subjective system where gravity could exist or not depending on subject and context, the same is conceptually true.

    Which brings me back to:

    There’s no reason gravity control requires a subjective truth.

    Emphasis mine.

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  • [–] 2 points 5 months ago (6 children)

    The fact that people feel different gravitational pull based on where they are doesn't make the concept of gravity different for each of them. You're just using the wrong word to describe the acceleration produced by gravity, rather than gravity itself.

    That's why technical definitions (so we speak the same language) and education (si we understand that language) are important!

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  • [–] 1 point 5 months ago (2 children)

    Sure, i could have specified i was talking about the gravitational pull rather than the concept of gravity as a whole.

    I was, however, replying to a message that was specifically talking about gravitational pull, so i assumed it was understood i was referring to the same.

    Nevertheless i stand by my assertion, I'll be specific though so it's clear.

    The idea of some sort of magical control of gravity (and all of the concepts covered by that word) wouldn't necessarily be a binary on/off.

    in a theoretical system where gravity was an objectively provable truth that consisted of an on/off state, control would mean being able to turn that system on or off, either as a whole, but more specifically in this case, for a specified subject.

    in a theoretical system where gravity was an subjective phenomena, control would mean being able adjust the effect of that phenomena to some degree.

    The systems I'm talking about here are my interpretation of the the systems posited by the person to which i was replying.

    Which , again, brings me back to:

    There’s no reason gravity control requires a subjective truth

    For completeness, I should have probably said:

    There’s no reason gravity control requires a subjective truth ( using the exmples of subjective/objective truth as proposed by the person to which i am replying )


    That’s why technical definitions (so we speak the same language) and education (si we understand that language) are important!

    Agreed


    As an aside:

    You’re just using the wrong word to describe the acceleration produced by gravity, rather than gravity itself.

    What word was i using incorrectly and in what context? , genuine question.

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  • [–] 2 points 5 months ago (1 child)

    I was, however, replying to a message that was specifically talking about gravitational pull, so i assumed it was understood i was referring to the same.

    You know, reading the thread I had the completely opposite understanding of the topic that was being discussed. Even now, I believe the other user was talking about the concept of gravity at large.

    When having this type if discussion in academic situations, almost half of the time will be spent on defining terms to prevent misunderstanding.

    Just using the word "gravity" is not specific enough. I'd recommend to talk about "gravitational pull" or "force" for the general concept, the one that applies the same everywhere. Then there could be the gravitational acceleration near the surface of Earth (or Gee's for short), which is subjective to the location of an object.

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  • [–] 1 point 5 months ago

    Honestly, my argument here isn't even about the science, gravity was just the example that was used in the response to which I was originally replying.

    My point was theoretical was possible in both subjective and objective variations of .

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  • [–] 1 point 5 months ago (2 children)

    I see you have cleverly noticed there is a 3D object in the meme image that is casting both projections.

    This argument is one that is very, very difficult to have because it veers too closely to people's first principles.

    On one side, we have people who know they are forced by reason to believe in all truths that appear before them.

    And on the other, we have people who have decided they will choose to believe in all truths that appear before them.

    Like, it's just a semantic difference. Nobody on the subjectivity side, nobody rational anyway, disagrees with the concept of gravity, we are just simply aware of our power as fallible human beings to destructively choose not to.

    That said, there is something very dangerous about being in the second group of people, but thinking you're among the first. And frequently, it becomes a problem when science brushes up against cultural fields it has more trouble explaining.

    It is not always possible to see the 3D object. The ability to recognize that two groups can both be 'correct', like in a Newtonian way, even when they disagree with each other is a very useful skill.

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  • [–] 1 point 5 months ago (1 child)

    Yeah, let's not try to apply the scientific method to social problems, that can only end badly!

    But let's not apply absolute relativism to science unless we want to end up with climate denialism.

    Cheers!

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  • Are you being sarcastic? The scientific method is still useful, you just have to know what its limits are.

    But let's not apply absolute relativism to science

    I have no earthly idea what you're talking about. Please, inform my subjective experience.

    Look at the picture above us. One group describes the shape's projection as a circle, and they are correct. The other group describes the shape's projection as a square, and they are correct. The only thing I'm doing is describing a worldview that is accomodating of these two perspectives.

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  • [–] 2 points 5 months ago

    the ISS is simply not close enough to Earth to be subjected to Earth’s gravity, in any practical amount

    Imagine being this convinced that one's understanding of gravity is objective truth, while also being this wrong about how gravity works

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  • [–] 2 points 5 months ago

    Wilful control of reality in this case requires truth to be subjective

    Hmm, maybe. Others have covered this and it doesn't quite seem perfectly true, but let's let that slide.

    and conversely, if truth is subjective you can control reality

    No, that definitely doesn't follow. If truth is subjective it doesn't at all mean you can control it. It just means that what is true for you might be different from what is true for me. The reason that's the case isn't a part of that equation.

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  • [–] 2 points 5 months ago

    The experience is different because the person in the ISS is simply not close enough to Earth to be subjected to Earth’s gravity, in any practical amount. But that doesn’t mean gravity stopped existing for them

    sort of. they just keep falling and missing

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  • [–] 1 point 5 months ago (4 children)
  • [–] 2 points 5 months ago (3 children)
  • [–] 1 point 5 months ago (1 child)

    no no i've gotten really high and ass-philosophical and sometimes we take ridiculous positions (e.g. horses are just poorly behaved long dogs) just to see how long it takes for the other person to figure out we're high off our ass and giggling inside the entire time.

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  • [–] 9 points 5 months ago (14 children)

    In Einstein's general relativity, different observers can disagree about the order of timed events, so long as their individual stories don't violate causality. This is broadly known as the Relativity of Simultaneity.

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  • [+] 9 points 5 months ago (4 children)
  • [–] -3 points 5 months ago (2 children)

    so it's less of a "truth is relative to ME! ME! ME!"

    This, I think, is an argument that exists in your head only. An excellent example of relativity, if I'm being honest.

    I don't understand why subjectivity makes people so uncomfortable. Like, people would fight each other over the objectively correct temperature for the AC of their building if you let them—I just, I don't get it.

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  • [+] 3 points 5 months ago (1 child)
  • Showing time is relative to speed does jack shit to prove things would be relative to the subject,

    With this attitude, I just don't feel like you'd be living up to Einstein's manner of thinking. Just too rigid.

    in no moment you showed that this "truth is subjective" babble would be even remotely true.

    Uh. Subjectively, I think it's true.

    I really don't think you even understand what I was trying to say with all that.

    i.e. "gravity is false for me lol I'm jumping from the building!".

    Who is saying this?

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  • [–] 1 point 5 months ago (2 children)

    If you jump out of a bridge, you will still break your face on the ground for every reference frame outside of a black hole.

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  • [–] 1 point 5 months ago (5 children)

    Sure, if you're traveling near the speed of light. For everyone on Earth, no one has ever experienced this (beyond a micro level that doesn't matter and no one is discussing).

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  • [–] 2 points 5 months ago (3 children)

    wait i wanna discuss the micro level

    what the fuck tell me more this is neat

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  • [–] 0 points 5 months ago (2 children)

    Your head ages faster than your feet do! :D

    By such a small amount that it would never, ever matter, but it's still cool to know!

    This small difference does actually become relevant when trying to explain gravity, though.

    As I'm sure you've heard, objects in free-fall do not feel an acceleration. Instead, objects in an inertial frame travel along straight world lines through curved spacetime "down" toward the gravitational source. Light is "pulled" into large objects because that's what a straight line looks like to a light beam.

    I have a question, though: why is that I can't feel gravity during a free-fall, but I can feel my own weight when standing on the Earth? Isn't that kinda weird?

    (I'm wrapping the rest in a spoiler tag out of mercy to mobile users.)

    Tap for more paragraphs.

    Wouldn't everything I just said suggest that if I can feel the direction of gravity, it must be because I'm accelerating somehow? If I were blind and in free-fall, I wouldn't be able to tell what direction "down" even is, and yet, the muscles in my legs tell me very explicitly that they are "lifting" me.

    The answer, or a very useful answer, anyway, is that something is accelerating: the ground. The stationary ground accelerates up through curved spacetime to push me. That's how I can tell.

    But how does the ground accelerate without moving? Shouldn't the Earth expand if it's accelerating?

    We're definitely approaching the limit of the things I can explain at the moment, but the key is time dilation. The fact that your head ages faster than your feet is the reason why the Earth doesn't expand. It accelerates without moving because time is also curved.

    You can think of it this way: If you were to graph the position of objects through time, the Earth's surface might curve toward the y-axis, the time axis, because it is accelerating. But, the y-axis also curves "away" from the Earth's surface in the same way, such that they maintain their distance. And so, the Earth doesn't appear to move.

    Isn't that cool?

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  • [–] 2 points 5 months ago (2 children)

    what is the difference between what is true and what merely is? because truth is the former, gravity is the latter.

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  • [–] 1 point 5 months ago (1 child)

    I wonder if belief has anything to do with reality. Hmm.

    Eh, probably the universe is a cold, dead clockwork of matter that spontaneously and randomly fell into place with only the barest of coincidences we can try to grasp as objective truths with which to define our sensationally complex environment.

    Although . . . it is just as possible that matter arises from something more fundamental to something like a universal order, such as consciousness.

    I dunno though, they never told me.

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  • [–] 27 points 5 months ago

    Yes please lets have a semantic debate in which no one defines their terms

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  • [–] 23 points 5 months ago
    [–] 28 points 5 months ago
    [–] 27 points 5 months ago (6 children)

    Genuinely though, English seems to lack the distinction between truth (the absolute state of something being universally true), truth (something that is correct from some point of view) and truth (an idea someone is dedicated to).

    Some other languages have different words for these "truths". You could say that first is truth, second is perspective, and third is an idea, but all three can be named "truth", which can easily spark a debate over simple misunderstanding of what you mean, exactly.

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  • [–] 7 points 5 months ago*

    I would argue that the first and third are perversions of the word. A truth that is universal should be called a law. Like the law of entropy. Unfortunately the word "law" has also ben twisted to mean legal policy. The third should be "belief," as it is what you hold inside you. Religion call their beliefs "truth" to push their agenda.

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  • [–] 2 points 5 months ago

    English has loads of words for the spectrum between fact and baseless claim, it's just people have decided "truth" is contested, this is mostly that news on both sides of American politics report differently, producing often conflicting supposed facts, to the point where people say truth doesn't matter anymore

    People take that idea differently, from the sane end where it's just the state of sectarian news through to the crazy end where they think nothing is real

    Illustrative is one side of American political followers didn't believe in COVID-19, the other side wore masks, avoided gatherings, and got vaccinated when vaccines became available

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  • [–] 13 points 5 months ago*

    Science routinely solves problems like this:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Photo_51

    In some sense this is the very heart of science: taking disparate views of the world and drawing likely conclusions that are testable and reproducible.

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  • [–] 13 points 5 months ago (2 children)

    The twist:

    It’s actually a flat piece of paper.

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  • [–] 12 points 5 months ago (1 child)

    Gödel , Escher, Bach, an eternal golden braid

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