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[–] 37 points 5 months ago (2 children)

Out of all places where you could possibly place a solar panel, this seems to me like one of the least practical ones. It's almost all drawbacks

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  • [–] 118 points 5 months ago* (18 children)

    Really long and thin strips that can't be angled. They can only be serviced while the track is closed and need to survive whatever debris a train might fling at them. Is this really the best way to place them?

    Solar freaking railways.

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  • [–] 108 points 5 months ago (13 children)

    For the life of me I don’t understand why people are putting them anywhere before every rooftop is covered with them. Roofs are dead space and unlikely to have debris issues (at least compared to a railway).

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  • [–] 39 points 5 months ago*

    It's companies trying to make a quick buck. They tried this with roads too.

    Obviously every home should have them first and all newly built homes should be built with solar efficiency in mind.

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  • [–] 9 points 5 months ago (8 children)

    Or in parking lots. It would also have the added benefit of providing cover for cars.

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  • [–] 2 points 5 months ago (2 children)

    You need some serious concrete and/or steel hardware to build a carpark roof that can hold the solar panels without easily being damaged by cars or broken by strong wind, so that massively inflates the costs. If you had a state owned company producing cheap solutions for this it could work though.

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  • [–] 2 points 5 months ago* (2 children)

    Every parking lot needs approval of the location, its probably a a pain in the ass, and would disrupt parking while being built which impacts sales (or will be perceived to anyway). If this worked, you only need to deal with a small group of people for a very large space.

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  • [–] 2 points 5 months ago

    You can lay them down and remove them again and also clean them with automation. There are power lines nearby as well as consumers, electric trains.

    Installing on roofs is manual labor and needs electricians. Which is why you see so many solar farms by the roadside.

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  • [–] 13 points 5 months ago (1 child)

    It seems like the sort of naive gimmick one might expect from a MAD Magazine cartoonist, or Elon Musk on a ketamine binge. It would work to an extent for a while, though whether the amount of electricity generated would justify the maintenance costs to keep it going is another matter.

    The arguments against it are the power yield of a panel pointing upwards, and presumably covered with dirt shed by passing trains. That said, it would suffer less impact damage than photovoltaic roads/bike paths floated elsewhere (the occasional rock impact, as opposed to constant traffic). Also, there is a lot of track, so even if a segment generates little power, it adds up. Not enough to power electric trains, though possibly enough to offset the power bill after operating costs are taken into account.

    I’m guessing this installation is an experiment to quantify these figures rather than a commitment to roll this out more broadly.

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  • [–] 16 points 5 months ago

    I’m guessing this installation is an experiment to quantify these figures rather than a commitment to roll this out more broadly.

    No need to guess, it's right there in the article.

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  • [–] 25 points 5 months ago (2 children)

    Crazy cheap deployment, but I don't think those panels will stand up to it very well. The vibration is bad enough, but metal fragments are the real threat, I suspect. I've been in a few rail yards, and vehicles that habitually get parked close to rails that are in active service have paint damage from tiny metal chips flying off the rails and wheels. Unless they have some kind of replaceable clear shield, those panels will not just get dirty, they'll get slowly sandblasted till not much light is actually reaching the photovoltaic panel.

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  • [–] 20 points 5 months ago (5 children)

    Three years ago EEVBlog already published a Video why this is a terrible idea: https://youtu.be/7vItnxhWRqw

    Im not convinced much has changed since then. As a Swiss citizen it's a bit disappointing that a apparent cash grab like this is possible.

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  • [–] 13 points 5 months ago (4 children)

    And this is why they only put 100m of panels, to test and validate the idea before commiting to any large scale project. As a swiss citizen too, I'm on the contrary quite happy to see those test projects to give a chance to new technologies (or ways to utilize said technologies) before any real investment.

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  • [–] 3 points 5 months ago (3 children)

    I think the biggest limitations will be security, someone will definitely be trying to steal them

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  • [–] 1 point 5 months ago

    steal them

    train damages them

    they get dirty

    Wildlife infestation

    It makes more sense to put them up out of the way angled toward the sun

    just set up bleacher style farms along train routes

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  • [–] 20 points 5 months ago (12 children)

    As a practicing solar engineer, I don't like the idea of applying solar panels linearly because they can benefit much more from centralization meaning applying panels to an area, but to be honest I think it's cool that humans are discovering new ways to use these things.

    Sunlight is everywhere, so bring on the solarpunk!

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  • [–] 3 points 5 months ago (1 child)

    Well yeah, the space in between the rails currently isn't used for anything, might as well put it to use

    I'm just wondering how much electricity you realistically can get from these panels as first of all they're straight up, so most sunlight will come at the panels under an angle, driving efficiency down. Then, I'm sure there is a lot of rail, so a lot of potential area but still... Versus the cost and required energy to install them, what would be the ROI, really?

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  • [–] 4 points 5 months ago

    ROI would take a lonnnnng time, in my view. It's the same idea as installing modules under asphalt roads or even above them. It's not really worth the O&M hassle whatsoever.

    The same idea goes for installations like canals. They're linearly too so not the wisest use of modules. But the benefit of modules over water like that is lower rates of evaporation as the panels block the sun. Same is true for water department reservoirs that see lots of algae. The panels block the sun and choke out the algae.

    But you're right about the shading. If these panels are installed in higher latitudes, then odds are they might never see the sun directly at certain times of the year. Usually solar designers only recommend flat horizontal mounting for modules in hurricane- or tropical storm-prone regions like near the tropics, or close to the Equator where the Sun shines directly overhead most of the year.

    What I COULD see happening is if governments around the world start transitioning railroads to have H-frame structures that suspend feeder lines like what's used in electric trains with pantographs. If you set up those H-frames frequently enough, you have the underlying structure similar to carports and can install modules 4-10 modules wide. THEN you can utilize string inverters every 7-8 H-frames or so, converting the solar DC power into AC which can help feed the train loads as they pass or feed the grid.

    Bonus of the above system is that over time, all trains including rail freighters become electric or at least hybrid to make use of the free power generated above them throughout the railway.

    Lots of ideas!

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  • [–] 2 points 5 months ago (4 children)

    I mean my city has a metro line that is electric rail. seems like stations having batteries and solar along with solar on the track would make some sense for the elevated areas.

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  • [–] 4 points 5 months ago (3 children)

    I've always been an advocate of the canopies above train stations having solar panels to help power the local loads and maybe push power back to the grid.

    Solar canopies are used in many other places like parking garages/lots and canals, so the technology is there.

    I'm starting to wonder if it's the vibrations from the train that makes these installations risky. Those same vibrations would happen to in-track solar PV like what's shown in OP's article. It's certainly possible to design around, as the EU is showing!

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  • [–] 2 points 5 months ago (2 children)

    yeah I have a hard time believing we lack engineering skills to prevent shaking in structures.

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  • [–] 2 points 5 months ago (1 child)

    I don't think it's that as much as it is putting modules near trains that have glass prone to micro cracks that can highly accelerate degradation of the panels to the point where they start cannabalizing others.

    Still, I think you could probably install modules with polymeric front sheets instead of tempered glass to fix that issue.

    No such thing as an impossible problem for engineers! Only impossible costs ;)

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  • [–] 2 points 5 months ago

    No such thing as an impossible problem for engineers! Only impossible costs ;)

    Makes me think of that one quote, "Any idiot can build a bridge that stands, but it takes an engineer to build a bridge that barely stands".

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  • [–] 1 point 5 months ago (4 children)

    Aren't panels laid in series normally? And if the railway track is electrified then the centralization matter much less.

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  • [–] 2 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago)

    By "in series", do you mean linearly? Depends on context.

    For Commercial & Industrial (C&I) applications like rooftops, canopies, façades, canals, floating islands, and the like, panels can be strung in series linearly sure. But because C&I arrays also tend to be arranged in polygons and more often rectangles, this allows the solar designer to string in non-linear ways.

    One way to string in these contexts is to prioritize loops where the start and finish of the string are 1 module apart. A lot of RF enthusiasts don't like it when modules are strung this way because conductors arranged in a loop act as an antenna that can send and receive EM waves.

    Another way to string is the snake or zigzag method where strings are patterned like this: ,,,,|'''''''|,,,,|'''''''' in rows that are 2-modules wide. The snake method can also be applied to 3-mod, 4-mod, etc. wide rows depending on what stringing method ends up being feasible.

    For ground-mount applications at the community-, Distributed Generation- (DG-), and utility-scales, solar stringing is usually done linearly or in loops due to the constraints of the racking, although snake/zigzag can apply in some instances. Ground-mounts can either take the form of fixed-tilt (FT) racking, single-axis trackers (SATs), or dual-axis trackers (DATs).

    With FT, the usually racking setup is 2-in-Portrait (2P) where you have 2 rows of modules abutted next to each other facing South. These are usually designed in long rows along a property line, so it's easy to make strings completely linear or half-loops where you turn the string around at the halfway point of what would otherwise be a string line. FTs can also be arranged as 3- or 4-in-Landscape (3L or 4L) which allows for more loops and snakes/zigzags.

    With SATs, you're always stringing things linearly.

    For DATs, you get the same benefits as C&I, 3Ls, or 4Ls because each DAT is separated from the rest of the array so the mini-array can track the sun. Lines, loops, or snakes/zigzags work, with a preference for loops and snakes/zigzags because DATs are rarely sized large enough to accommodate the entire widths of strings (sometimes 15-30 modules in length).

    With railroad-based solar, my bigger concern is that since the modules have to be in a single line that CAN'T repeat in rows to the North/South in a typical array, this means all those strings will need to run a long way before being collected at an inverter to turn into AC. That long length adds to voltage drop in the circuit, which is an energy loss on the system. You can get away with this by adding microinverters for every 1 or 2 modules. Microinverters like that add a lot more complexity in terms of Operations and Maintenance (O&M) purely because there are more parts to break down. With string inverters and even central inverters, you have less O&M breakage but the flip side is that those work better with more centralized/rectangular-like arrays.

    Doesn't mean it can't be done, but it's certainly more expensive than any other implementation of solar.

    One of the benefits I can actually see with using microinverters over string or central inverters is that you break up the "array" of modules so that shading from the trains affects less of the "array" than if everything was collected at the DC level. You can isolate the shade-affected parts better, and promote better energy reduction.

    Idk I'm interested to see what comes from this! Definitely a wild idea haha

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  • [–] 1 point 5 months ago* (2 children)

    And if the railway track is electrified

    We got 100% electrification rate in Switzerland!

    But usually 15kV AC with 16.67 Hz, so probably not useful for connecting the panels to be honest.

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  • [–] 1 point 5 months ago (1 child)

    Solar is DC. Converting it to 16hz probably isn't more difficult than converting it to 50hz.

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  • [–] 1 point 5 months ago

    Yeah the frequency is not the issue, the high voltage could make it expensive to transform the power up in a distributed manner along the tracks. Might be better to run a separate lower voltage line to the next substation.

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  • [–] 8 points 5 months ago

    Gadgetbahn type shit

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  • [–] 4 points 5 months ago

    Clever use of land.

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  • [–] 4 points 5 months ago (4 children)

    Mmmmm, not AS stupid as solar roadways, but them again, what is?

    Having said that... How efficient can these panels be just sitting straight up like that? That'll already cut out some of the efficiency which isn't going to be very high to begin with with solar

    I mean, the basic idea seems good, no heavy materials will drive daily on top of it, like with the solar roadways, but still... How much could you realistically get out of this?

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  • [–] 2 points 5 months ago (3 children)

    It's not about "efficiency" in this form. It's scale. Efficiency prioritization is useful ontop of a single home, Scale prioritization is when you are laying down a million+ panels.

    Once those are installed, they're pretty much permanent with minimum maintenance, and will keep providing power for decades.

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  • [–] 1 point 5 months ago (2 children)

    Not disagreeing, genuinely curious and hoping you know more than I do. Haha

    You say minimum maintenance, but it seems like this would require almost constant maintenance to me. Animals shitting on them, trains blowing dust, rocks, shards of metal onto them, scratching their surfaces and diminishing their use over time by blocking sunlight from constant debris and scratching. Would it not make more sense to measure the height of the lowest bridge/tunnel on the track's route, and put these on a platform at that height? At that point, they could be angled, or even potentially have those motors that track the sun, while keeping them safe from damage from flying pebbles and dirt, and providing shade for the train to run under? I doubt the shade thing matters that much, but assuming these are passengers trains (I'm a USian, so I've only ever heard of passenger trains in folklore and western movies), it could limit the amount of air conditioning the train needed to keep passengers cool, perhaps?

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  • [–] 2 points 5 months ago (1 child)

    Imagine a street cleaning car. Now imagine that, as a light truck attachment. Now imagine that, attached to any train that goes over the tracks.

    Or, just imagine, Something like this: https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/High-Temperature-Resistant-Small-Size-Rail_1601599861898.html

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  • [–] 0 points 5 months ago

    I'd still say these are going to pick up enough scratches to effectively block out most light. Or, at least, that's the way my brain wants to think about it. Like the way headlights get dim over time because the plastic or glass casing picks up scratching and makes them hazy/foggy/look like sea glass. I'm not trying to suggest that's what will happen so much as trying to understand why it wouldn't. Even with the street sweeper hanging under the cow catcher, the bristles of the broom seem like they'd scratch the surface over time and limit light. I'm very certain much, much smarter people than me designed this and have accounted for those issues. I just... Don't grok how lol

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  • [–] 3 points 5 months ago

    I see it's time for our yearly Sun-Ways post. Here are the old editions:

    https://slrpnk.net/post/14389924

    https://lemmy.ca/post/42909568

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  • [–] 5 points 5 months ago

    One train even swerved to run over a solar panel that was getting away. /s

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  • [–] 2 points 5 months ago

    SOLAR FREAKIN’ ROADWAYS!

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  • [–] 2 points 5 months ago

    It's a nice thought but boy will it be a bummer when a single loose hook or bolt destroys like a hundred miles of renewable electrical infrastructure

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  • [–] 2 points 5 months ago (2 children)
  • [–] 2 points 5 months ago (7 children)

    We could use the railing to transmit power but nah we have to use it to house power source

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  • [–] 1 point 5 months ago (4 children)

    In what world is it reasonable to put a several kilovolt line on the ground? Even subways have safety problems with the third rail.

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  • [–] 1 point 5 months ago (3 children)

    Damn you want kilovolt? I was thinking few hundred at most. Over a few miles it would be fine to power like lights and low powered devices

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  • [–] 1 point 5 months ago (2 children)

    There is usually a current present in the rails already

    Either traction current, signalling current for track circuits, or both

    Depending on the way the signalling system has been engineered

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  • [–] 2 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago)

    Sweet bike path, don't wear headphones.

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  • [–] 1 point 5 months ago

    For fucks sake, raise them above the track and angle them towards the sun.

    "Researchers in Switzerland suggest almost wiping your ass in first-of-its-kind test"

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  • [–] 1 point 5 months ago

    This just seems silly

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  • [–] 0 points 5 months ago

    Morons! Morons everywhere!

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  • [–] -2 points 5 months ago

    Silly Swedes...

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