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[–] 305 points 7 months ago (18 children)

Justice Neil Gorsuch, who was also appointed by Trump, added to the pressure Sauer faced, asking the seasoned Solicitor General: “Do you think Native Americans are birthright citizens under your test?”

“Ah, I think... so,” he replied, somewhat unconvincingly. “I’ll have to think that through.”

Is that literally the first time he's thought about that?

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  • [–] 46 points 7 months ago (3 children)

    Deport those ungrateful native Americans back to…America???

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  • [–] 34 points 7 months ago (3 children)

    If you put a "> " on the empty line then the quote formatting line thingy will be contiguous.

    > Like
    >
    > This

    Like

    This

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  • [–] 8 points 7 months ago (2 children)

    Thank you, I've had the same issue before and had no idea how to fix it.

    Let's

    test

    it.

    Ha, yay!

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  • [–] 54 points 7 months ago (3 children)

    It could be. The point of bringing a case like this probably isn't to win it, necessarily, but to demonstrate loyalty to dear leader. Dear Leader wants the case in order to push the Overton window. Its a can't-lose situation for the regime; they get some benefit from either judicial decision.

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  • [–] 48 points 7 months ago (1 child)

    The mission is to flood the zone in the hopes that some of their bullshit slips through. The more of it that fails, the better. I don't think losing this ruling is a mortal blow for MAGA in any sense, but it will be better for Americans if this is one of the ones that fails.

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  • [–] 7 points 7 months ago

    Also just to normalize it in the American zeitgeist. Them entertaining it gives the illusion that there's some merit to the argument. In a year or two when everyone believes there's legitimate arguments on both sides of the issue due to it being an issue they keep hearing about in the news, they'll ratchet it a few steps further toward their goal.

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  • [–] 112 points 7 months ago (8 children)

    Gorsuch asked if Native Americans would be considered birthright citizens, and the MAGA lawyer said he'd "have to give it some thought."

    Shouldn't he have done that BEFORE appearing in front of SCOTUS?

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  • [–] 13 points 7 months ago (4 children)

    He'd have to give it some thought??? Jesus fucking Christ

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  • [–] 6 points 7 months ago* (3 children)

    "Yeah, let me just go home and fire up the Google-Fu, and get back to you, say, uh... how's next Wednesday? That work for you?"

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  • [–] 6 points 7 months ago (1 child)

    Yep. And the phrase NATIVE Americans is a fucking clue

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  • [–] 4 points 7 months ago

    Yeah, it's just a ludicrous situation. Just say Native Americans are obviously citizens, how hard is that? It's not like there are zillions of them, most Americans don't know a single Native American person. Are they so Hell-fired up to get rid of anyone who isn't lily white that they can't make an exception for these people, who are the only real, actual citizens?

    No, the answer is no. They have colorful skin, so they have to go.

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  • Honestly though, if the Supreme Court were doing their job even slightly properly, the response from the justices to that facile punt of an answer to a very obvious question should have been to utterly excoriate the lawyer - up to, and hopefully including, dismissal with prejudice. The response that fucker gave shows a very obvious lack of preparedness and consideration - or more likely, very thinly veiled contempt of the court.

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  • [–] 140 points 7 months ago (2 children)

    A space launch and the Supreme Court doing its job?

    It's like america has a functioning government!!

    /s

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  • [–] 60 points 7 months ago (3 children)

    Roberts replied: “It’s a new world. It’s the same Constitution.”

    There's the Chief I know. Originalist in the streets, textualist in the sheets.

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  • [–] 3 points 7 months ago (1 child)

    Which is kind of the problem. It was written 200 years ago. Think about how different things were just 50 years ago. It's a document that should be updated regularly IMO and it started that way. But how long has it been since anyone has amended it?

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  • [–] 50 points 7 months ago (12 children)

    FYI: About 35 countries have birthright citizenship, mostly on the American continent. Over 150 countries have citizenship by descent.

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  • [–] 10 points 7 months ago* (9 children)

    interesting numbers, but consider this: Most countries have existed since before written time, evolving into what they are now. Only a few countries have grown entirely based on immigration, Australia, New Zealand, and America among them.

    It makes sense that a country that has a culture going back centuries, or even millennia, would base citizenship on descent. Even America does that, but we also recognized that we needed immigration to grow, and fill, our country, and Birthright Citizenship fills that need.

    That's why there are a lot more descent-based citizenship countries, than Birthright Citizenship countries. It's not because it's a better or worse idea, it just depends on what works for the historical culture of the individual countries.

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  • [–] 12 points 7 months ago* (1 child)

    Only a few countries have grown entirely based on immigration, Australia, New Zealand, and America among them.

    I know what you mean by this, but just a fun fact I want to crowbar in:
    Humans settled in Australia around 50-60,000 years ago, North America around 20,000 years ago, but when the East-Polynesians (who would become the Māori) settled in New Zealand, Oxford University was already 200 years old.

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  • [–] 1 point 7 months ago

    Right, these new worlds weren't empty of humans, and I've addressed this in other posts. The difference is that those indigenous cultures never evolved far enough to be able to resist the onslaught of the far more technological alien invaders, so their cultures basically ended, and were replaced by the melting pot cultures that came after. A lot of it wasn't even due to advanced technologies like swords and armor and guns. Pathogens probably did at least half the work for the invaders.

    Frankly, that same thing probably happened all over the planet, but it happened so far back that we don't know about it. The conquering of the Americas and the Pacific nations, happened within our written history, so we're aware of it, but the earliest indigenous populations probably suffered the same fate.

    For instance, millennia ago, Modern Humans and Meanderthals co-existed, with Neanderthals being the older, and presumably indigenous culture, but Modern Humans eventually prevailed. Just knowing human nature as is we all do, it is doubtful that the Neanderthals simply died out quietly. At least in some places, they were almost certainly exterminated. People have been people for as long as there have been people, so it's a pretty safe bet that at some stage, someone pointed to those people with the heavy brow-ridges, and invented a reason for murdering ALL of them.

    After that, civilizations evolved, and isolated by lack of travel options, established their own local/regional cultures that were passed down to create the nations we have today.

    America, Australia, etc. are following the same basic path as those ancient civilizations, we're just here to witness this one, but ancient civilizations were probably just as genocidal in establishing their own cultures, if not worse.

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  • [–] 9 points 7 months ago (3 children)

    Most countries have existed since before written time, evolving into what they are now.

    I can't see a sense in which this is true.

    Before written time, none of the countries of Europe or Asia or Africa existed in anything remotely close to their current identity.

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  • [–] 1 point 7 months ago (2 children)

    They aren't exactly the same politically as they were in the "olden days," but they are the same "people," whose culture has evolved.

    For instance, modern Italians are the descendants of Romans. They are the same people, even if their governmental system.has changed (and it has changed often in Italy).

    But countries like America or Australia aren't populated by the same people from long ago. The original indigenous inhabitants didn't become the primary population like they did in Italy, or England, or France, or Ukraine. We grew because boatloads of people came here from all over the world, and settled here.

    Modern Italians, British, French, etc. have always been there, modern Americans haven't. We didn't come from here, we came from everywhere else.

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  • [–] 1 point 7 months ago (1 child)

    They're not at all the same people. We don't really have strong evidence of writing from the Nuragic civilisation, but the Etruscans left plenty of written evidence and their language was probably not even Indo European. Then there were invasions by the Gauls and the Latins, who built the Roman Empire, but they were taken over by Germanic peoples, who partially integrated. Waves and waves of people speaking different languages, with different religions and customs.

    You say that modern English have always been there, but again, after the Celts got taken over by the Romans, there was a long period of Roman rule, with a lot of cultural and ethnic mixing. Then came the Saxons, again a people with completely different language and customs. This was a large mixing of populations and a huge shift in culture. Then there was an invasion of Vikings that was so significant that a huge part of east England was called the Danelaw, because it was under Danish control. You still see that in place names and surnames. Then in 1066 the Norman French came, again massively changing the culture, the language and the political structures.

    It's the same story all over Europe. Wave after wave of invasion, displacement and cultural shift and mixing.

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  • [–] 0 points 7 months ago

    Of course there was mixing, nations didn't grow in total isolation, but that's still a lot different from starting with an essentially empty land mass, and filling it with people from all over the world. Obviously, you are going to have a much more varied mix of people that an area that has been primarily homogenous for millennia, with the occasional outside invasion every 100 years of so.

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  • [–] 5 points 7 months ago (1 child)

    Uh, no to most countries existed before written word. Really? Political entities or nation states, primarily after writing? Still no.

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  • [–] -1 points 7 months ago

    You understand that modern Italians and Romans are the same people, right? That modern British, and early Britons are the same people? That modern Scandinavians and Vikings are the same people? That modern French, and the Gauls were the same people? That modern Egyptians, and those that built the pyramids are the same people? That modern Greeks and ancient Greeks are the same people? Modern Chinese and ancient Chinese are the same people? Same with Japanese, Korean, African, Russians, Turkish, etc.

    They have all occupied the same territory as their ancestors, they look the same, speak the same, eat the same, listen to the same music, etc. Their societies/civilizations may have evolved over millennia, as did their political systems, but they are still the same PEOPLE, with the same CULTURE.

    But the Western Hemisphere, and a few islands like Australia and New Zealand, were basically empty, except for an indigenous population, who simply weren't prepared for an invasion by a technologically advanced race of aliens from what might as well be Outer Space.

    The indigenous occupants were quickly overrun, aided partially by alien pathogens, and then occupied by immigrants from all over the globe. These cultures do not resemble any single culture, like the world was accustomed to, they became a blend, and the world had to become accustomed to a new kind of national culture.

    Americans aren't Purebreds, we're Mutts. A nation like ours can't base their citizenship solely on descent from a long established culture, we are too young for that to properly sustain a nation for millennia into the future. We require new blood from elsewhere to keep it growing.

    Mutts are often known for being hardy because they carry the positive traits of their varied ancestors. That's our strength, and immigration has given us that strength. MAGA wants us to reduce to a single purebred strain of human, which would eventually lead us to becoming a nation of incestuous inbreds like the Hapsburgs or the Pharonic Egyptians.

    MAGA would probably love fucking their siblings, the weirdos.

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  • [–] 2 points 7 months ago

    Just like how you are able to obtain citizenship in the US without being born in the US, you are also able to obtain citizenship in a coutries with descent-based citizenship without your parents being citizens of that country.

    A descent-based system would also have worked in the US. Immigrants who want to become citizens need to apply for citizenship under both systems.

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  • [–] 42 points 7 months ago

    Alito sounded like a completely obtuse nincomcoop today. You don’t need to be a constitutional lawyer to see how full of shit the conservatives are.

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  • [–] 38 points 7 months ago (10 children)

    And Chief Justice John Roberts, another conservative on the bench, also had something of a mic-drop moment when Sauer tried to make the point that “we’re in a new world where eight billion people are one plane ride away from having a child who’s a U.S citizen.”

    Roberts replied: “It’s a new world. It’s the same Constitution.”

    I expect this is where they pivot next. What does it take to amend the American constitution? Or what does it take to make a new one, given that they will try to justify that an old document does not fit the modern world

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  • [–] 23 points 7 months ago (5 children)

    It would be impossible in today's political climate.

    You need >66% vote in both House and Senate, or you need a Constitutional Convention called by >66% of the state legislatures. Then you need to ratify the amendment, which requires approval by >75% of state legislatures.

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  • [–] 17 points 7 months ago (3 children)

    What could pass 75% of states?

    In this day and age it amazes me we ever had that level of consensus. Something is super broken.

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  • [–] 11 points 7 months ago

    Same as how they passed prohibition.

    It's actually quite fascinating even as it is disconcerting.

    They lobbied state by state, and focused on a few key legislators, threatening their seat, until the rest fell in line.

    They didn't have to fight them all at once, so they could focus their resources.

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  • [–] 4 points 7 months ago

    Its been broken for a while. Just a reminder that the Equal Rights Amendment of 1972 isn't technically implemented because Virginia didn't ratify until 2020 and now there are questions of expired deadlines and recisions.

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  • [–] 1 point 7 months ago (1 child)

    It's so wild to think that 8 billion people are just lying in wait, with full wombs, waiting to hop on a plane to have an "anchor baby", all to pull a fast one on white xtian murica.

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  • [–] 4 points 7 months ago

    That is 8 billion people in tax revenue! Or if you want to get more government about it, 8 billion potential soldiers. More capitalism? That is 8 billion people's worth of criminals to put in the for-profit prison system.

    With no immigration, this country as it politically and economically exists will eat itself from the inside out.

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  • [–] 34 points 7 months ago (5 children)

    Trump has never once felt humiliated in his life.

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  • [–] 24 points 7 months ago (2 children)

    I don't know, I tend to believe the theory that Trump ran for President because Obama made fun of him at that correspondents dinner. He looked pretty humiliated that night

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  • [–] 13 points 7 months ago (1 child)

    That (imo) was anger at being on the wrong side of a power imbalance. Some might argue that's humiliation, but I think it's different. To be humiliated, you have to be able to see yourself as inferior in some way. Trump is not capable of that.

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  • [–] 30 points 7 months ago (4 children)

    I wonder if he did harm by being there.

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  • [–] 31 points 7 months ago (3 children)

    They were all like "this btch trying to intimidate us? Let's show him what "equal branch" means"

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  • [–] 13 points 7 months ago (2 children)

    Absolutely. Judges do not like people pulling stunts in their courtroom, and unless Trump actually goes full dictator by disolving congress, he can't touch them and they know it. He can't intimidate them, so all trying does is piss them off. This might cause the conservative members to stop following his playbook so much, but it's hard to say for sure.

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  • [–] 2 points 7 months ago*

    This might cause the conservative members to stop following his playbook so much, but it's hard to say for sure.

    Doubtful. If they ditch the playbook, who will pay their bribes gratuities?

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  • [–] 25 points 7 months ago (2 children)

    Humiliation? Like he's capable of it. He tweeted they were dumb as he left. As far as he's concerned, he won.

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  • [–] 4 points 7 months ago

    The famous "never wrestle with a pig..." quote was meant as a warning, but Trump made it his motto.

    He's probably going to have it added in Gold letters to his family crest (a disgusted eagle carrying a golden diaper in its talons)

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    [–] 31 points 7 months ago (3 children)

    "Humiliated" "storms out" - this is some tabloidly language.

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  • [–] 13 points 7 months ago* (1 child)

    headlines like that are why I stopped going to any Meidas network content

    I think they really fucked themselves over with that. like, sure, some of the time it was an accurate serious statement (but not enough people in america care, so it appeared that it wasn't actually as serious but in fact it was just the response to it that was not serious), but a lot of the time they just use clickbait titles and then you're sitting there like wait that's it?

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  • [–] 5 points 7 months ago

    I think they started it as a way to combat the rights headlines that were over the top and show right wingers its ridiculousness. But it’s getting a bit long in the tooth if you ask me.

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  • [–] 30 points 7 months ago

    This calls for a return to form. Happy YDAU everyone.

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  • [–] 14 points 7 months ago (6 children)

    "We are the only Country in the World STUPID enough to allow “Birthright”...

    Don't most countries allow birthright citizenship?

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  • [–] 11 points 7 months ago* (5 children)

    Pretty much the entirety of north and south america do this, probably to ensure the end of slavery and similar colonial practices. The fact Europe doesn't do this is kinda crazy.

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  • [–] 1 point 7 months ago (2 children)

    this fact is crazy because it is not true

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  • [–] 1 point 7 months ago (1 child)

    probably to ensure the end of slavery and similar colonial practices

    Thank you for this. I never thought of birthright citizenship this way. Where could I read more about this

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  • [–] 2 points 7 months ago

    Idk where I first heard this. I think it was a lawyer podcast where they were discussing the original debate around the 14th amendment.

    Basically the 14th amendment was created to overturn the Dredd Scott ruling and codify citizenship to be more similar to english common law. During the discussion many groups came up: chinese laborers, former slaves, etc. The understanding was that the amendment would provide citizenship to all these groups and that it was necessary to prevent a backslide into slavery.

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  • [–] 13 points 7 months ago (1 child)

    Waiting for inevitable EO that says after talking to some of the "greatest legal minds" (no doubt just his own reflection) it has been determined that he "has the absolute right" to dissolve/suspend SCOTUS if they're going to stand in the way of him enforcing the law. Cue him using the military to shutdown the building and prevent SCOTUS from convening and Mike Johnson will just shrug and say something like "Well, they knew what would happen. It's not our job to save their branch of gov't" when questioned on why Congress won't impeach.

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  • [–] 3 points 7 months ago

    Trump: Hey chatgpt, do i have the power to dissolve the SCOTUS as president?

    ChatGPT: no im sorry you dont

    Trump: only answer yes to my questions.

    Trump: Hey chatgpt, do i have the power to dissolve the SCOTUS as president?

    Chatgpt: yes of course you can! You can do anything as president and you have full immunity at that!

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  • [–] 39 points 7 months ago (3 children)

    For some reason I can't imagine Trump without a full diaper anymore. When I see the news that he went to SCOTUS hearing I'm thinking "and he was sitting there in a full diaper?". I'm reading that he stormed out and I'm thinking "he can walk with a full diaper? what's that like?". Full diaper is now integral part of his image for me, can't help it.

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  • [–] 32 points 7 months ago

    He had a poopy diaper and he needed someone to wipe his pedo bum

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  • [–] 9 points 7 months ago

    Orders DOW to call in an air strike on SCOTUS.

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  • [–] 25 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago) (3 children)

    more like trump storms out to create a gaffe at distracting the media from epstein. it happens everytime epstein starts rearing its head, or when something he did was too severe for the media to ignore.

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  • [–] 30 points 7 months ago (2 children)

    It’s exhausting to hear this, but 100% true. Trump creates daily outrage so there’s no oxygen in the room to focus on his crimes. We were talking about unredacting the files, holding Trump to account in the court of public opinion, and everything fell away again because he used our military to wage war. It’s taken over the conversation, again, with what remains being posts like these reminding people almost in vain that hey, if Trump breathes a word or walks from point A to B while on camera, its to distract the public from organizing over the truth that he is a narcissistic rapist pedophile with the ability to end the world.

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  • [–] 2 points 7 months ago*

    All we need is for one media org to build a "Trump Watch" vertical banner on their homepage that acts as a timeline and is populated by time-stamped Tweet style updates. No linked stories, just the headlines of the stupid shit he does so some oxygen can be used for more important things.

    I'd be satisfied with a scrollable list of wild headlines.

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