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[–] 141 points 8 months ago (7 children)

It’s going to be hilarious when these get hacked

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  • [–] 115 points 8 months ago (6 children)

    Reminder that by law, if the price is listed wrong:

    Sometimes the price of an item in store or online at the checkout may not match the displayed or advertised price in store or online. If this happens, even by mistake, the business must either:

    • sell the product for the lowest price - either the checkout price, or displayed or advertised price, or
    • stop selling the item until the incorrect price is corrected.
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  • [–] 46 points 8 months ago (2 children)
  • [–] 10 points 8 months ago (1 child)

    stop selling the item until the incorrect price is corrected

    Not a lawyer but couldn't they just refuse to sell it to you? We all know it would be bullshit but couldn't a company say "Oh that minimum wage clerk made a mistake, but don't blame them, just an honest mistake."

    Or is the law, if it's on the shelf, it must be honored?

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  • [–] 14 points 8 months ago

    They would have to refuse to sell to anyone. It would likely not be lawful to leave it on the shelf and sell it at the higher price to someone else who might not have noticed the discrepancy, until they fix up the shelf pricing.

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  • [–] 2 points 8 months ago

    Once dynamic pricing is ultimately accepted as the norm, what is the lowest price? Also, if you have the ability to instantly correct pricing “mistakes”, then you never have to stop selling the product. There’s no penalty for gouging people until someone notices, and you can instantly revert to a known tolerable price and start over.

    If dynamic pricing is legal, and accepted by the consumer, whether as frequent expected pricing fluctuations, or the worst case scenario of personalised pricing, these protections may well be unenforceable.

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  • [–] 63 points 8 months ago (3 children)

    remember if you see someone shoplifting food no the fuck you didnt

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  • [–] 5 points 8 months ago (2 children)

    Especially if you work there.

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  • [–] 3 points 8 months ago (1 child)

    honestly the best part about working at a supermarket was delivery day when i could weave through the maze of pallets and sleep on the paper towels behind everything like a fort. i sure as fuck aren't going to report anyone shoplifting food.

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  • [–] 59 points 8 months ago

    Dynamic pricing Price gouging. FTFY.

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  • [–] 46 points 8 months ago (1 child)

    Let’s call it what it is: price discrimination.

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  • [–] 42 points 8 months ago (18 children)

    I’m still not clear on exactly what triggers this. Is it phone location, because a phone number is linked to all your data (unless you’ve been gaming it for the last 5-10yrs)? Do I walk by with my phone and the price goes up?

    Is it like goodwill? Does the price change as you’re checking out? Do I grab a 2lb bag of medium roast coffee beans for $13, and because buying it consistently for decades, it’s now $18 at checkout? But is still $13 for the guy behind me who decided to try whole bean over pre-ground?

    If rich people turn off their phones before hitting the parking lot and poor people leave theirs on, does the entire store get cheaper?

    If you take a pic with your phone of the “advertised” price does that mitigate sudden increases while checking out, if you’re even watching?

    Does having your unemployed, deadbeat uncle or kid do the shopping from their phone make it cheaper for the household?

    What are the triggers?

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  • [–] 36 points 8 months ago (11 children)

    We've had them for quite some time. They don't change price for individual customers, I don't think they change the price in the middle of the day either. But, I guess, they can change the prices just before opening, like if the wether service forecasts a rainy day they could rise the price of umbrellas and raincoats. Cold? Hot chocolate and soups. Hot? Ice cream and cold drinks. Certain asshole died overnight? Champaign and confetti cannons through the roof. And so on...

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  • [–] 8 points 8 months ago (7 children)

    They don't currently, but they could.

    Take brand x on the shelf. Sold for $5 at a profit of $1. They sell 10 per week. You buy 2 if those every week, on Wednesday at about 6pm. Why not make them $5.50 next Wednesday and see what happens. Normal price on other days as no pattern identified.

    Then once that's successful, why not have beacons detecting your phone, or even the stores app feeding your location. Then they can update just for the hours you are there.

    Oh, but you'll say you swore it said $5 when you picked it off the shelf. The worker will say they have to charge what's there now and what it scanned as. Your choice to purchase it or go look for something else.

    They've already started all this crap with online purchasing. It's just moving it to retail.

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  • [–] 3 points 8 months ago (5 children)

    Surge pricing really only works when you put the customer in isolation. Uber can do it because you're the only one seeing the rate for the trip you want to take. Amazon can do it because you're shopping while taking a shit at work. Nobody else sees the prices in your online shopping cart, that's not the case in retail.

    The profit motive behind these tags is wage savings. It saves in the time it takes to change out price tags when the prices do change. It saves in the time used in finding and replacing missing or damaged tags. It saves in the amount of manual price corrections at the till when the tag doesn't match the till because the tag wasn't updated - or the lost time and revenue if someone abandons their cart because of said disagreement.

    Could they do what you're saying? Technologically speaking, it's been possible for several years - we've had these tags on most major store shelves in Canada for a very long time now and apps tracking our every move. Why hasn't it happened already? These stores have had everything they need to implement this scheme, and of all the shady cunts in this world, Galen Weston would have by now if it could have turned a profit.

    It's easier to just price-fix the bread and pay a fraction of your profit in lawsuit settlements decades later than to do what you're describing.

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  • [–] 2 points 8 months ago (4 children)

    I a shop with 10 products, yes, I'd agree. In a supermarket with thousands of products, they can predict what you're likely to buy if you're a regular customer and you might be the only one buying those items that day.

    I don't expect them to do it overnight. First they roll them out for the cost savings. Just like they did with barcodes rather than price labels. Then they start to look at other savings or profit centres.

    After a while it becomes, why wouldn't they do it?

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  • [–] 1 point 8 months ago (3 children)

    Why go through the trouble of gaslighting someone with digital price tags somehow changing the price on the fly based on whoever happens to be looking at it (BTW, what happens if two people with different price profiles are looking at the tag at the same time?), when they could just remove the tags entirely or even more likely, just close the store and force you to shop online where they can do all the usual online price fuckery?

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  • [–] 2 points 8 months ago (2 children)

    Some countries require pricing to be visible. I would assume, just like online, they will use algorithms and ai to figure out what price point gives the most profit. Its only trouble to set up. The corporate world doesn't look at trouble. They look at cost. If the return investment is positive, they do it. If it's high, they do it as a priority.

    Not all retail is online. Much is but not all. Groceries is one that is often better in person for that evenings meal on the way home from work. It's led to the rise of metro style supermarkets near transport hubs.

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  • [–] 1 point 8 months ago (1 child)

    Grocery is already going online, look at all the companies sponsoring youtube vids. The margins for what you're describing are, at the absolute best, razor-thin.

    E-tags draw significantly more profit from things like one-day (loss leader) flash sales, or in-store specials, or other conventional retail pricing tactics.

    Take a 4-hour sale on some popular product, put an ad up on Instagram to get people in your store on the way home from work and you make a mint. You don't need E-tags to do that, but it means that you don't have to pay someone to change out the paper tags on that product twice in their shift.

    You're getting distracted by the least likely way they'll fuck you over, when they're just sticking to tried-and-true collusion.

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  • [–] 1 point 8 months ago

    The margins in grocery are razor thin. It's a volume game..usually they have your cash before they need to pay the supplier with 30 days payment pretty standard in business.

    I'm not saying they won't do all you're suggesting. I'm saying they'll do both. Unless we prevent them with regulations and fines.

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  • [–] 9 points 8 months ago

    That's the personalized prices. That's step two.

    This one is the digital price tags that let the store manager or corporate office instantly raise prices throughout the store for everyone.

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  • [–] 3 points 8 months ago

    I can imagine price stickers would update daily, and individual users would get personalized discounts on their app.

    App-less buyers would pay the baseline price in the sticker, app users would pay less. Like existing loyalty card programs, but with more data collection

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    [–] 82 points 8 months ago (10 children)

    I will institute my own "dynamic pricing" scheme if this ever happens

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  • [–] 35 points 8 months ago (5 children)

    Is it really dynamic if the price is always "free"?

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  • [–] 13 points 8 months ago (3 children)

    surely negative numbers are in the cards? since we deserve the compensation for all the trouble

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  • [–] 6 points 8 months ago (2 children)

    Wait for all the codeberg projects tryna break these things

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  • [–] 4 points 8 months ago* (2 children)

    I don't know what you're talking about, I'm obviously not gonna steal anything. Sure, accidents happen from time to time. The supermarket decided to replace their cashiers with self checkout operated by random non-employees, after all. If I happen to ring up filet mignon as a Roma tomato, I think that's just the inevitable result of outsourcing your labor to untrained civilians with no incentive to accurately do the job .

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  • [–] 33 points 8 months ago (4 children)

    In other news, shoplifting is inexplicably on the rise in shops featuring dynamic pricing.....

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  • [–] 4 points 8 months ago (1 child)

    Some American grocery stores already tested the waters by posting armed guards in its stores. This article is a few years old, but the precedent stands.
    https://retailwire.com/discussion/hy-vee-creates-its-own-armed-security-squad-to-deter-crime/

    Hy-Vee last week announced the introduction of an in-house armed security team to manage theft and in-store disturbances.

    The Midwest grocery chain said in a statement that it has long worked with third-party contractors or off-duty law enforcement that work in a security capacity. The goal of bringing it in-house is “to create a consistent look for the security team and consistent approach to customer service and security across all [its] stores.”

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  • [–] 28 points 8 months ago (2 children)

    Boycott the stores that use them, it might help them change their mind behind they become the norm.

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  • [–] 9 points 8 months ago (1 child)

    This is Australia and I think 90% of grocery shops are either this one or the competitor

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  • [–] 2 points 8 months ago

    I knew it was Australia, didn't realise that there was such a monopoly. Still possible, just makes it harder. Are there stores that aren't part of any chain? They're dying out here, usually the owners have signed up to a franchise.

    It's unlikely to happen anyway, but there should be a way that we can universally stop greed.

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  • [–] 53 points 8 months ago (3 children)

    If my local store switches to digital price tags to do this I'm just going to gather as many as I can and flush them down the toilet.

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  • [–] 21 points 8 months ago* (2 children)

    My local Woolies has had e-ink tags for at least two years, maybe more. Between this and Coles hiring Palantir, we mostly shop at Aldi. Bunnings and Kmart using facial recognition as if it's no biggie as well. How long until they partner with CBA to check your credit card limit as you stand in front of the bananas to see how much you'll pay?

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  • [–] 26 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago) (7 children)

    Should be against the law to change the price after the shop opens at something like a grocery store. Nobody should be able to shop anywhere where the price you pick it up at can change by the time you get to the checkout.

    Edit: Maybe there could be some exception for mid day price changes if you emptied the entire store of customers first, but enforcing something like that seems difficult.

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  • [–] 6 points 8 months ago* (4 children)

    Issue is that haggling is actually legal in many countries.

    So at the cashier they will make you an offer, which, if you pay, accept.

    Now with technical support making individual offers becomes pretty easy and effordless on their end, but if you are in a hurry you don't have that technical support to make a counter offer that effordless... So the shopper is at an disadvantage. Either way, your reaction, wherever you buy or not will train the AI of the store to extract the maximum amount of money of the broad customer base. If some people are priced out of living, they probably don't care.

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  • [–] 7 points 8 months ago (3 children)

    Haggling might be fine but they have to honor price tags.

    If I'm in a grocery store and I see $1.00 they can't change it and try to charge me $1.10, and when I object and say it was $1.00 it shows $1.10 now.

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  • [–] 2 points 8 months ago (1 child)

    They do that anyway, but usually prices going down.

    e.g. yellow stickers going on things that will expire soon.

    You've not lived if you haven't watched two pensioners fight to the death over a 20p pack of Greek yoghurt.

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  • [–] 2 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago)

    That's a little different.

    Items that can expire get marked down at some point during the day, but they aren't changing the normal price of the item. If there's 20 packs of chicken breasts on the shelf, 5 or 6 might get the sticker.

    There's no guarantee that the one you have would have even gotten a sticker, and if you're savvy enough, you might have intentionally chosen the pack with the earliest most recent packed on date, or gone late enough to be after the mark down time near the end of the day (at least where I am)

    They aren't just going up and marking down the main price on everything, and its also always down, never up.

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  • [–] 22 points 8 months ago (4 children)

    Time to vote with our wallets. I absolutely will refuse to shop at any store in my area that starts implementing this.

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  • [–] 10 points 8 months ago (2 children)

    Sure... If you even notice it. And if enough people will care and if there are still stores around that don't do that, clearly superior profit maximising scheme.

    I'd rather want this stuff to become illegal. So calling your representatives, make news and go to the streets about this would I think help more that yet another boycott.

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  • [–] 1 point 8 months ago

    Or be like me where we have two Coles over the road from each other and a woolworths 5 minutes down the road and that's about it beyond corner stores that are only there surviving off the sale of alcohol to itinerants who get refused service at big name bottlos

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  • [–] 21 points 8 months ago* (14 children)

    and then there will be a really popular AI driven phone app that you will use to scan items and find out if you're being ripped off or not

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  • [–] 15 points 8 months ago (10 children)

    I already have a browser plugin that tells me the price history of everything at Coles. There's one for Woolies too.

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  • [–] 3 points 8 months ago (2 children)

    Good choice of product to care about.

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  • [–] 3 points 8 months ago (1 child)

    I actually saw Tim Tams on the shelf at a Morrison's in Northern Scotland, and it was cheaper than Coles in Australia. It's absurdly priced here.

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  • [–] 2 points 8 months ago (1 child)

    Those are some huge price swings for some chocolate in just a couple months time span. Is it common for products to fluctuate so much in price in your area?

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  • [–] 0 points 8 months ago

    Yes. It's like this for close to half the product range at both Coles and Woolworths.

    "50% off" I consider to be the normal price. Every price is either doubled or not. There are no "specials".

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  • [–] 5 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago) (1 child)

    Sigh, no you don't need a fucking AI app to do that.

    And you ARE being ripped off if you are dealing with a corporation, whether it's the price, the quality, the quantity, the fine text, ect. You are getting fucked every single time.

    So please don't be holding up the line and blocking aisles while your chatbot nanny tells tells you that everything in FUCK-YOU-LOL-MART™ is overpriced. Learn how underscan and shotplift like a normal person.

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  • [–] 2 points 8 months ago

    Not quite the same thing, but I used an LLM to cobble together a HTML file that allows me to search for products on Coles, Woolies, Aldi and Amazon at the same time in the same window (via frames and a Firefox extension to get around some security settings).

    Works a treat when planning our big shops for the week, and has already saved us hundreds of dollars since Jan.

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  • [–] 20 points 8 months ago

    I'm going to start dynamic payments. "Oh, between 6-9pm I pay 10% less."

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  • [–] 17 points 8 months ago (3 children)

    These have got to be hackable in a fun way

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  • [–] 17 points 8 months ago (1 child)

    Firmware on these is pretty tight. They're usually using CC2510s or CC2530s. The CC2510 has a voltage glitch hack that you can use to attempt to read the contents via the DCOUPL capcitor, but it's not very effective and you can only read a few bytes per attack.

    You can see a github some tools some have created here. Eventually someone is going to read the firmware off theses and be able to hack them, it's just a matter of time.

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  • [–] 4 points 8 months ago

    I'd assume the firmware is the same shipped with the vendor or pretty much very close to the sample code.

    Does it require something like an API key or password? Can these implement diff Hellman key exchange? Otherwise I'd just assume you can eavesdrop when someone is updating the contents.

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  • [–] 14 points 8 months ago (2 children)

    If they want to do dynamic pricing, maybe we'll just have to start dynamic shopping.

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  • [–] 13 points 8 months ago (3 children)

    A problem area is pricing that changes 10 minutes after you put it in basket but before checkout. Though OP did go through some other abuse scenarios, though some were far fetched. This can't allow a store to personalize prices the way a web site can.

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  • [–] 4 points 8 months ago

    This is what I came to the comments to gripe about this whole thing. Yes, they can play some games and probably will, but consider: People will be watching. They do this and you bet people will track this crap and post about it. The blowback will be huge.

    If they're stupid enough to try this, it will not last. lol. You can raise prices over the long term, but fuck around with short term prices people can see changing for no good reason? Yeah.....

    And on the "personal pricing" - that's written by someone that doesn't understand how barcodes work.

    But I'm sure they will try to play some games with it.

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  • [–] 2 points 8 months ago

    The solution of which is that you change the tag before you change the actual price if it's an increase, and the price before the tag if it's a discount, with a long enough delay. That's what they do with gas pumps and the advertisements here in Finland.

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  • [–] 13 points 8 months ago
    [–] 25 points 8 months ago (1 child)

    It is morally correct to shoplift from stores that do this.

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  • [–] 12 points 8 months ago

    Free epaper displays!

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  • [–] 12 points 8 months ago

    Start pushing your state gov to ban this.

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