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[–] 25 points 10 months ago (10 children)

It's great, but I had kind of assumed it was already in place.

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  • [–] 32 points 10 months ago (9 children)

    China has a far weaker social safety net than a lot of people assume.

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  • [–] 11 points 10 months ago (3 children)

    Especially considering the pedestal it lives on on Lemmy.

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  • [–] 3 points 10 months ago (2 children)

    with tankies, they salivate over any news of china, but they would never live there themselves.

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  • [–] 2 points 10 months ago (1 child)

    Idk I'd live there if I had the chance. The trains seem neat ¯_(ツ)_/¯

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  • [–] 3 points 10 months ago

    Yes the public transit is better than the US. (in Guangzhou at least)

    However, the actual apartment building I used to live in as a kid, it was so shitty and its deteriorating... I hated that place.

    Its like... if you make a lot of money and can afford a good place to live, it's fine, but if you are poor, its miserable.

    The difference between my area and just a 10 minute walk away to the nearby mall area, was so fucking massive, like decades of development apart, as if you time travelled. Its like: the mall was facing the street so itlooked so nice, then you walk 10 minutes, it looks worse and worse. Literally looks worse than Kensington, Philly (well probably minus the drugs thing, cuz illegal drugs are impossible to get in China, I'm talking aboit how clean the streets looked and how stable the buildings are). Its not like tourists are gonna wander into some alleyway and see what horrible place people actually lived in. It's urban hell.

    I live in Philly now, which is regarded by many as a very "slummy" city, but where I live now... this place still looks less bad than where I used to live in Guangzhou.

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  • [–] 34 points 10 months ago (12 children)
  • [–] 20 points 10 months ago (11 children)

    Yeah! Why would China spend that money on their people when they could spend it on their military and use their military to harass brown countries?

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  • [–] 0 points 10 months ago (10 children)

    I mean, China does also spend on their military and harass brown countries.

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  • [–] 5 points 10 months ago (9 children)

    https://x.com/RnaudBertrand/status/1786968298636423210

    Every time China visits we get a hospital, every time Britain visits we get a lecture

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  • [–] 6 points 10 months ago (8 children)

    Whataboutism.

    China is #2 in military spending after the USA.

    As for harassing brown people: well there's the whole Uyghur thing. And the simmering fight with other countries over islands in the South China sea.

    Two things can be bad. These are not sports teams where one side wins and the other loses.

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  • [–] 3 points 10 months ago (1 child)

    Two things can be bad. These are not sports teams where one side wins and the other loses.

    Yes. I completely agree. However, it's important to dispel false equivalence. Every country spends money on military, that doesn't imply they're all bad or neglecting their citizens.

    Why is the US spending so much on military? Why is China spending so much on military? Why does the US routinely invade countries in other regions? Why does China suppress Uyghur people in the Xinjiang conflict? Like you said, two things can be bad, but it's also negligent to imply the two situations are comparable.

    China is #2 in military spending after the USA.

    I don't believe they have another option, given the USA's military and aggression.

    It's telling how limited their spending is - consider China's disproportionate economy, size and population, and their borders. According to Wikipedia, they only spend 1.7% of their GDP on military - that's alongside the Netherlands, Czechia, Italy and Spain.

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  • [–] 1 point 10 months ago

    Yeah that's the thing. USA and China are both bad, sometimes due to the same thing (imperialism, capitalism, cronies running things etc), sometimes for unique things. Saying one country is good doesn't make the other bad in the same domain. And vice versa.

    However it is extremely important and necessary to compare things. Like you have compared military spending between different countries. The USA's manifest destiny CAN be compared to the Han supremacy in China especially in Tibet and Xinjiang. But of course there are marked differences.

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  • [–] 3 points 10 months ago (5 children)

    China is #2 in military spending after the USA.

    China plus the next 13 countries on the list can't total US military spending. And I don't even know if Israel + Ukraine should count, given how much of their military budget is just US foreign aid.

    As for harassing brown people: well there’s the whole Uyghur thing.

    The original “evidence” of 1 million Uyghurs in concentration camps stems from US propaganda outlets and far-right “researchers” like Adrian Zenz. These numbers could not be independently verified, and other media sources that repeat these claims merely cite each other or this original, US-backed research. Zenz himself is a known antisemitic conspiracy theorist, far-right evangelical, and Islamophobe who has written that the Jews who refuse to convert to Christianity will be wiped out by God in a “fiery furnace”. Why would a German with such hateful views toward Jews and Muslims be such a champion of Uyghur rights? It was later found that Zenz had received $625,000 from Donald Trump’s Chief Strategist Steve Bannon to help him fabricate the story of Uyghur genocide.

    Brother, you are sucking from the tailpipe of propaganda while your country is drowning in the blood of native peoples.

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  • [–] 4 points 10 months ago* (1 child)

    Except... there is actual evidence... And Amnesty International verified the human right abuses independently.

    The CCP even acknowledged the existence of, what they like to call, "re-education camps".

    You're denying gross violations of human rights by an Imperial regime.

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  • [–] 3 points 10 months ago (2 children)

    Nice genocide denial.

    Also I'm not American nor pro-American.

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  • [–] 3 points 10 months ago* (1 child)

    genocide denial

    Brother, get your ass to Afghanistan and say that to any of the survivors of the US occupation.

    You don't care what genocide is. You just want some foreigner to eat your sins.

    Also I’m not American

    Did you clap for Yaroslav Hunka with the rest of your ilk?

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  • [–] 43 points 10 months ago (3 children)

    Good. Can’t wait to beat this drum to hopefully shame the less than useless US congress to do ANYTHING.

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  • [–] 41 points 10 months ago (2 children)

    I mean, shaming America's greatness against other countries has worked in the past. That's how we got:

    • Universal healthcare
    • Mandated paid maternity/parental leave
    • More than two dominant political parties
    • Cheaper or free college education
    • High-speed passenger rail
    • Mandated annual paid vacation time

    Oh wait.

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  • [–] 3 points 10 months ago (1 child)

    The Congress of today likely won't. But the people who takes their vacated seats? Possibly.

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  • [–] 4 points 10 months ago

    Judging by the two-party system and the past Democrat governments, I don't think there's a significant possibility of getting more than one those in the next decade. At least four of them run directly in contradiction to the groups with enough money to systematically sponsor and corrupt politicians (no matter which party), own mass media and control other relevant institutions.

    These kind of things only happen when people have the power to pressure the government into supplying them.

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  • [–] 74 points 10 months ago (38 children)

    Desperation?

    People don't want to have kids. I wonder why. Remember the laying flat movement and the 996 culture.

    I wonder why.

    If only there was an actual solution to this LOLOL....

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  • [–] 36 points 10 months ago (34 children)

    If I lived under an authoritarian regime, I would not want to bring a child into it.

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  • [–] 61 points 10 months ago (8 children)

    The truth is that the strength of a democracy has little relation to the birth rate. If you live in the US, for example, you only live in a democracy if your income is in the top 10%. This has actually been studied. The opinions of the poorest 90% of the population have absolutely zero bearing on what government policy is implemented.

    The US and China actually have similar levels of democracy. China forms all its policies from the CCP, an organization of about 100 million people. The share of the population in China that has any impact on policy is actually quite similar to the share that does the same in the US.

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  • [–] 5 points 10 months ago

    It’s true. The very poor people I’ve known in the US have believed that “the system is rigged” and they have little freedom and no voice. They believe they are exploited by powers far beyond their ability to challenge and the last way any of it would ever change is through voting, which they see as an empty, farcical gesture.

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  • [–] 6 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago) (6 children)

    While you are correct, taking a piss poor example of democracy against another piss poor example of democracy doesn't really explain anything. I said authoritarian regime, I stand by that.

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  • [–] 21 points 10 months ago (5 children)

    What democracy currently have population replacement birth levels?

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  • [+] -11 points 10 months ago (2 children)

    I never said democracy equals replacement level birthrate.

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  • [–] 25 points 10 months ago* (6 children)

    Ehh, the character of the regime doesn't seem to affect birth rates a whole lot. Brutal dictatorships that make China seem like a gentle puppy could have perfectly ok birth rates. E.g. Nazi Germany had 2.5 fertility rate in 1939 and 1940, it was their highest since 1922: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Germany

    I really don't think the average Chinese cares too much about how authoritarian their govt is when it comes to deciding on whether to have kids. The consequences of one-child policy, economic prospects, stability, general cultural optimism/pessimism, social habits (and the effects of technology on them), etc. are all likely to be much more important factors.

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  • [+] -9 points 10 months ago (5 children)

    The consequences of one-child policy, economic prospects, stability, general cultural optimism/pessimism, social habits (and the effects of technology on them), etc. are all likely to be much more important factors.

    Those are all directly and heavily influenced by an authoritarian regime, so in the exhale you disagree with me, while on the inhale you argue my point. ;)

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  • [–] 6 points 10 months ago (4 children)

    Those are all directly and heavily influenced by all regimes in general, aside from the one-child policy which might be regarded as an authoritiarian policy. Shit economy making people not want kids works the same both in democracies and in authoritarian countries (in fact, the latter might even dampen the negative psychological effects upon the population through propaganda).

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  • [–] -5 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago) (3 children)

    [The shitpost formerly here is a good reminder to not Lemmy when too drunk. Know your limits]

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  • [–] 7 points 10 months ago (2 children)

    It must be fun when you just make up what the other person said and call them names over that. You homophobe.

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  • [–] 8 points 10 months ago (2 children)

    lived under an authoritarian regime

    I mean... isn't that just most of history tbh?

    Most people aren't antinatalists lol

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  • [–] 1 point 10 months ago (1 child)

    I'd quibble that the average medieval peasant faced a lot less surveillance than the average citizen of any country today (Though perhaps that's just a change in methods).

    But you are right - and, in fact, I think it's the case that countries/people in worse circumstances tend to have more kids (probably some weird evolutionary thing but I don't want to speculate). As tough as times may seem in "developed" countries, most people don't need to worry about where their next meal is coming from.

    (This isn't to say that circumstances are "fine" or that we shouldn't improve things - simply pointing out some biological factors). It's also worth noting that folks in worse economic circumstances tend to having a higher number of people in their "support network" (friends and family - ie, 3 generations living under one roof). Though perhaps this is not the case in the US since it's culturally looked down upon to rely on family like that.

    It's an interesting phenomenon that can't be boiled down to 1 or 2 simple factors like government type. Maybe this was too much text and I should've just said "I agree with you DeathByBigSad"

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  • [–] 1 point 10 months ago

    having a higher number of people in their “support network” (friends and family - ie, 3 generations living under one roof).

    Fun fact: My mom told me that, supposedly, if it weren't for the fact that my maternal grandmother (aka: her mother) agree to help take care of me, she would've never given birth to me, as she already has the trouble of dealing with my older brother. My parents were kinda busy with work.

    (I'm from China btw... Currently residing in the US)

    I also remember sometimes my older brother was just tasked with the "chore" of having to pick me up. I remember once my mom's close friend picked me up from school at the same time as she picked up her kid, I kinda just spent like an hour at their house being bored... not much entertainment... smartphones didn't exist at the time (not that I would've been allowed to have one anyways, I was like maybe 10 or something).

    And as for finacial support. My mom borrowed a lot of money from relatives and friends... so yeah... that how she managed to buy a house (she eventually paid them back).

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  • [–] 4 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago) (5 children)

    I agree, but how is that relevant to China? It pretty consistently has the highest government satisfaction rates in the world.

    Edit: and before you accuse me of Chinese propaganda, that's data from western organizations like Pew Research or Ash Institute

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  • [–] 0 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago) (4 children)

    Because they jail/disappear anyone who complains? Lol.

    Edit: Without entrenched freedom of speech, surveys mean nothing but what respondants think their opressors want to hear.

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  • [–] 2 points 10 months ago (2 children)

    Dumb take. The data portraying that comes from western institutions like Pew Research or the Ash Institute

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  • [–] 0 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago) (1 child)

    You seem to struggle with the simple concept. So badly in fact, that I suspect this is all disingenuous bullshit from a bad faith ideologue.

    In the slight chance this is just a high level of ignorance, naievety or low IQ, here is my polite response.

    Oppressed people won't tell anyone anything that can be used against them, western or not. Pew Research isn't going to protect them. The Ash institute won't un-disapear anyone. The people speaking to western, even academic sources still have to live under oppression when the survey is done.

    Speaking to foreign journalist is a great way to get your family threatened.

    https://rsf.org/en/chinese-regime-s-fierce-repression-journalists-hidden-behind-day-celebration

    Edit: Never mind. For bad faith arguments I hereby award you a personal block.

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  • [–] 6 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago)

    Quoting RSF, the western politicized organization that refused to comment on the illegal arbitrary detention of a Spanish journalist in Poland. The organization classifying England's "Press Freedom Index" as satisfactory while all sorts of reporters bring up the massive repression against anti-zionism in all media. Surely that Montpellier-based organization with branches exclusively in western countries could not be used as a political tool!

    You have literally never spoken to a Chinese person living in China, and it shows.

    Oppressed people won't tell anyone anything that can be used against them, western or not

    Look. I understand you've been exposed to decades of anti-China propaganda, but this is fucking wild. In my university department I've been fortunate enough to direct the master's and bachelor's theses of some 10 Chinese students. I've discussed politics with most of them, between 2020 and 2024 for a frame of reference. We're talking highly trained young men and women from a variety of backgrounds and provinces. None of them has had any problem talking to me about politics, other than "I'm not really interested" for some of them. Out of those students, only one chose to pursue a career in Germany (highly developed, rich country in Europe), the rest moved back to "authoritarian, evil, oppressive" China.

    The one who chose to stay in Germany told me that he came to Europe considering himself an opposition supporter against the government of China, but that when he saw the politics in Europe, he started to be a lot more charitative towards the Chinese government and he's not so clear about his position anymore. Another student told me she couldn't understand how the German government did nothing while hundreds of thousands of citizens were needlessly dying of COVID because it didn't want to infringe too much on "the economy".

    Tell me now: how many actually Chinese people living in China have you spoken with?

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  • [+] -9 points 10 months ago (3 children)

    Children in China have better lives than those in the US.

    And you're mad about it.

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  • [–] 7 points 10 months ago (2 children)
  • [–] 16 points 10 months ago (1 child)

    As someone currently in China, I'd rather have a kid here than in the US.

    There's a lot more random shit explicitly for children around, like malls will have basketball courts, arcades, playgrounds, and other things that definitely doesn't generate as much, if any revenue, so kids aren't just expected to silently follow their parents around or be on the phone for hours at a time. As a consequence, you see fewer outbursts of children in public. They still have a long way to go regarding mental health in other ways. A mother I talked to was confused that anyone could think it's possible to teach children to listen without hitting them.

    As far as education goes, I see more small, private schools than the US, which worries me as it implies the public schools in the area aren't as good. It's notoriously stressful for the children, but then so is living with a real danger of getting shot at school.

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  • [–] 9 points 10 months ago

    thanks for your actually sensible and cogent input.

    it's hard for me to understand how private schools can exist in China. i have a difficult time understanding how they balance / navigate between socialism and capitalism.

    i would never raise my children in the US. the US has too many problems. we're quite happy in the EU. as you say, lots of children and family friendly public spaces around, and even as a part of private places they set aside spots for kids without cost.

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  • [–] -2 points 10 months ago (3 children)
  • [–] 1 point 10 months ago (2 children)

    "Oh I hope my children grow up in an authoritarian dumpster fire. Rights are scary and I can't be trusted with them."

    • you, probably.
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  • [–] 0 points 10 months ago* (1 child)

    Or maybe somewhere where you don't have to spend half of your salary paying rent? Like China.

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  • [–] 0 points 10 months ago

    I laughed pretty hard reading this when Hong Kong's subdivided flats (cage appartments) came to mind.

    You bring up an interesting topic. China has both housing affordability issues, and entire ghost cities at the same time.

    China's command economy can accomplish amazing feats in little time, at the cost of efficiency and utility.

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  • [–] 7 points 10 months ago (1 child)

    Good thing they made actual unions illegal in the Workers' Paradise ™️.

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  • [–] 10 points 10 months ago (1 child)

    I find it funny to watch these countries having issues with people not wanting to have babies.

    There are core reasons behind this, one large one being "raising a child is expensive and all the world's money is being sucked up by billionaires, there is nothing left for children". Another one (for certain countries like Japan and South Korea) is the "work 80 hours a week and never see that family you're supposed to raise"

    And governments go like "sooooo, if we cover child birth, you're good, right? What? Still nothing? We tried nothing and we're all out of ideas, how oh how can we solve this?"

    Fuck the rich, end the rich. That will get births back to a healthy 2.1

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  • [–] 5 points 10 months ago

    officials have already expanded maternity leave benefits and housing subsidies to encourage couples to have more children.

    Seems like they’re trying multiple things. Meanwhile we’re over here trying to say middle school kids can be paid less than minimum wage, operate dangerous machinery and work late on school nights. If you can’t afford kids, might as well exploit them

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  • [–] 17 points 10 months ago (7 children)

    does this apply if one of the parents was not chinese?

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  • [+] -6 points 10 months ago (6 children)

    Probably not. Probably need a certain social credit score and last name

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  • [–] 35 points 10 months ago (3 children)

    In the US, we just call our social credit scores credit scores.

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  • [–] 0 points 10 months ago (1 child)

    Our credit scores don’t stop you from traveling

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  • [–] 1 point 10 months ago

    What you're thinking of is actually only applicable after a court judgment in China and it's for judgment defaulters, i.e. people who have violated the law, received an order to pay a fine from the court (a judgment), and then proceeded to either evade the fine or hide their assets. It's restricted to people who are within their means to pay the judgment and are still refusing or evading, and it's limited to high consumption or consumption not essential to life/work. They can still travel, they just can't buy plane tickets and nicer rail tickets or high speed rail. The government uses the restrictions to encourage people to pay their fines. The US and (I assume) western countries do similar things with judgments and bankruptcies all the time. In the US a court judgment is typically required to be paid off when you sell your home or before a lender will let you refinance your property, for example. Also a bankruptcy court can effectively restrict your right to purchase luxury items or travel or by scrutinizing your funds in court and requiring that you show up to certain court dates, just as examples. They can even refuse to let you sell your house and other assets and set stipulations for how debt must be repaid if they do let you sell it. The social credit score stuff is nonsense that's long since been debunked or has Western equivalents that we don't bat an eye at.

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  • [–] 25 points 10 months ago* (2 children)

    From Bars, Pride and dating apps: How China is closing down its LGBT+ spaces

    At the same time, China’s population growth and economy are slowing. “The current population growth couldn't support economic growth,” explains Hongwei, meaning there has been a push to encourage heterosexual couples to have larger families to ensure an abundant future workforce.

    China: be less homo and breed more

    The ban on Grindr could be put down to China’s wider dislike of Western apps, which are often accused of being vehicles for foreign influence. But removing Blued and Finka, which were both developed in China, represents a “seismic change in government attitudes towards homegrown LGBT apps”, says Hongwei.

    Before targeting Blued and Finka, the Chinese authorities led a campaign against authors of the “Boy's Love”, or Danmei, same-sex romance stories, some of which feature explicit love scenes between men.

    Several Danmei writers, most of whom are female, have reported being arrested and questioned by the authorities, and in recent months two major Danmei sites have either shut down, or drastically reduced and toned down their content.

    Today, “officially, those Three No’s are still in place, but we are seeing evidence that the space for LGBT+ communities is starting to shrink”, says Marc Lanteigne, associate professor of political science at the Arctic University of Norway.

    Shanghai Pride shut down in 2020, and one year later the government shut down student LGBT+ accounts for “violating internet regulations”. Grindr disappeared in 2022, and in 2023 the Beijing LGBT Centre closed its doors after 15 years.

    In June 2024, the Roxie, Shanghai's last officially lesbian bar, was forced to close “under pressure from the authorities".

    “The authorities have been slowly chipping away at those spaces that were open previously,” says Hildebrandt.

    With the closure of so many physical spaces, online networks had become “really the only places in which many members of the LGBT+ community could express their sexuality openly” he adds.

    But in contemporary Chinese politics, “the Maoist principles about equality have more to do with uniformity,” says Hildebrandt. “You gain equality by being more like everybody else. You don't gain equality by being diverse.”

    In a bid to create greater conformity within the population, “there has been a push in China to reinforce traditional family values and, in some cases, traditional masculine values,” adds Lanteigne.

    Since the Covid pandemic, “the Chinese government has endorsed nationalist discourse and LGBT culture is seen as very politicised siding with Western ideologies”, says Hongwei.

    “There's the impression that LGBTQ communities are by default connected to the West and could be seen as destabilising forces,” adds Lanteigne.

    Broader political and social forces may be at work, but the result is a real loss of liberty for gay and queer people in China. Hildebrandt says: “There is a real sense that it’s become a more difficult environment to be openly gay."

    older discussion

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  • [–] 18 points 10 months ago (1 child)

    If we close gay bars, gay people will be straight right?

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  • [–] 3 points 10 months ago*

    The notion of homosexuality as a sexual orientation didn't exist until recently.

    People had gay relationships and did gay sex but they'd also tend to get married and pump out a kid or two. I'm assuming while being gay on the side.

    Maybe the answer is less about punishing homosexuality than it is about applying extreme social pressure on monogamy?

    IMO monogamy does more damage to society than all the gay in the known universe ever possibly could. The fact that homosexuality doesn't do any damage at all, really, is a factor as well.

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  • [–] 4 points 10 months ago (1 child)

    If they're are covered, why or how are they out of pocket?

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  • [–] 6 points 10 months ago

    I think once they are covered, they will no longer be uncovered. I.e. no longer be out of pocket.

    Still you have to pay to raise them, which I’m guessing is the main factor for people not to want children. Which I suppose is what the government is trying to encourage here.

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  • [–] 7 points 10 months ago

    It's like if 200 million of China workforce were gig workers or something.

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  • [–] 4 points 10 months ago* (1 child)

    And then they help pay the roughly $15,000 usd per yr per child it costs to raise a child right?

    Becauae it would be really bad if China helped pay for a ton of kids to be born that can't be provided for.

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