Rule of law is obviously sympathetic to Hamas.

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[–] 353 points 1 year ago (21 children)

*The soldiers accused of carrying out the attack gave a press conference outside the Supreme Court on Sunday, wearing black balaclavas to avoid identification.

The group said they could not receive a fair trial because of the leaked video, and were victims of an unfair “drumhead court-martial”.*

The video of us doing horrendous shit is extremely hurtful to our defense!

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  • [–] 197 points 1 year ago (19 children)

    While I agree they are unlikely to get a fair trial

    1. They don't deserve fairness
    2. If this wasn't leaked, they would go un-judged, which is the opposite end of that sliding scale they are complaining about by being outed as torturers.

    I do wonder how much of it was "following orders" and how much was pure bloodlust. Neither excuses this, but the former would be indicative of bigger evil up the chain of command.

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  • [+] 66 points 1 year ago (12 children)
  • [–] 47 points 1 year ago (10 children)

    Every military ever.

    The concept that a soldier is able to disobey an illegal order is flawed. The first thing that happens to them is being thrown in jail awaiting court martial. It's then on them to prove the order illegal be ause the presumption is that it was legal. It becomes one person against the whole military apparatus.

    The penalty if found guilty of refusing to obey orders? At minimum (in the US) a dishonorable discharge. At most a room on death row.

    I still think soldier should refuse illegal orders, but the system is setup so they don't.

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  • [–] 6 points 1 year ago (4 children)

    You should update your minimum. In the US military It’s actually an NJP to start. You can request court martial if desired and it goes from there.
    Dishonorable discharge is very rare and you’re likely to end up with an OTH or BCD if the “infraction” is significant. I’d rather have some jail time than shoot civilians tbh.

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  • [–] 9 points 1 year ago* (3 children)

    Not even an NJP if you're a Nuke. I've told admirals to their face that I wasn't going to break the book to follow their stupid orders. I realize we are the prima donnas of the military though, and I wasn't just a Nuke.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago (2 children)
  • [–] 4 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    The US has no draft, they choose to join, so they can go fuck themselves.
    Assassins paid with taxpayer money, that's all they are.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    Israel does. Compulsory service.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago

    They're not that dissimilar, both indoctrinate exceptionalism and fascism into their kids from an early age, the difference being that usonians go overseas to liberate other people of their oil, whereas israelis have war zones (they create) geographically close, so a bit of incentive is required for them to join the meat grinder. Not much though.

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  • [–] 137 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    Everyone deserves a fair trial. If Israel cannot provide one then perhaps The Hague or Palestine can assist them in getting a fair trial.

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  • [–] 14 points 1 year ago

    A very reasonable and sensible perspective, but what if that's still not going to be a fair trial either? We all have pretty strong opinions about torture, so I think we may need to go the extra mile in this case. If no unbiased jury can be found anywhere on planet Earth, then we'll have to send them to Mars for a fair trial instead. It doesn't even have to be elaborate, we can use the rules of the good old fashioned "trial by ordeal". If you can survive on Mars, that demonstrates you were innocent all along and you can come right back home. Otherwise this is going to get dragged out for years and years while they dig up even more evidence and who knows what else may get discovered. This is really the best option for everyone. All aboard to Mars.

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  • [–] 11 points 1 year ago

    This is what happens with Fascist thugs. American citizens in the US are getting shot in the back by ICE and beaten. People are dissappearing or held in detention with no camera footage to leak. Same shit, different continent.

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  • [–] 96 points 1 year ago* (3 children)

    Tomer-Yerushalmi appeared to be a model servant of the state. Only the second woman to rise to the position, in 2021, she was appointed chief military advocate – effectively the IDF’s top lawyer.

    She was shaping up to be such a good little war criminal, but she just had go and develop a moral compass...

    The country was also still in the grip of profound shock and, for many citizens, fury at the October 7 massacre, with extremely limited concern for the treatment of detained Palestinians.

    Such a way with words. "extremely limited concern for the treatment of detained Palestinians" is a very pretty way to say "thirsting for the blood of innocent civilians"

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  • [–] 17 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

    but she just had go and develop a moral compass

    It's not so straightforward.

    Traditionally Israel’s government and military have considered the existence of an independent judiciary a crucial barrier to international legal tribunals investigating Israel for alleged abuses against Palestinians.

    Where there is a robust national legal system willing and able to investigate and prosecute crimes, international courts are less likely to have jurisdiction to intervene.

    “Don’t they understand we had no choice? That the only way to address the wave of international legal proceedings is by proving we can investigate ourselves?” the investigative reporter Ronen Bergman quoted the advocate general telling colleagues six weeks ago, in a report for Yedioth Ahronoth newspaper.

    In recent decades many Israelis have seen the role of the military advocate general “as protecting soldiers from prosecution abroad”, said Prof Yagil Levy, head of the Institute for the Study of Civil-Military Relations at Israel’s Open University.

    “In other words, the law is not upheld as a value in itself, but as a defence against international tribunals.”

    Her office exists (to self-police just enough?) to avert international prosecution.

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  • [–] 75 points 1 year ago

    it is shaken them to the core that someone leaked it. not because someone did it.

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  • [–] 203 points 1 year ago (6 children)

    The most fucked up part about this story is that hundreds of Israeli fascists literally stormed the military base the perpetrators were being imprisoned — committing domestic terrorism — in defence of the war criminals, demanding their release.

    Israel is a fascist state because its founders spent the last century propagandising its citizens and the entire Jewish diaspora. It's not a surprise the Israeli majority think Palestinians are sub-human and their extermination is justified; that will not change for generations, and only after Israel is globally shunned, militarily neutered, required to return to its original borders, and pay to rebuild all of Palestines infrastructure.

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  • [–] 71 points 1 year ago (3 children)

    Unfortunately, it's not just an Israeli thing. There's lots of Zionists in NA who say things like 'the Palestinians don't even know how to farm'...

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  • [–] 34 points 1 year ago

    They’re useless people. Look how much change Israel has accomplished in the last 60 years! They created a large economy, industrialized, created so many farms and made the land productive. None of the Arab states want to take all the Palestinians, which shows you what they really think. And the Palestinians are terrorists too.

    I just can’t even with people sometimes.

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  • [+] 18 points 1 year ago (2 children)
  • [–] 14 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    JFC. I'm trying to imagine someone saying this, like what could be going through their head. I just can't.

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    [–] 63 points 1 year ago (3 children)

    Shaken to the core

    I doubt it.

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  • [–] 118 points 1 year ago (7 children)

    “Showing video of our actions is blood libel”

    Why does this type of bald faced deflection still work enough that they can keep doing it

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  • [–] 6 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    Blood libel or ritual murder libel is an antisemitic canard which falsely accuses Jews of murdering Christians in order to use their blood in the performance of religious rituals.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blood_libel

    The fuck? Nobody was making any kind of claim like that. Why did he bring it up?

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  • [–] 51 points 1 year ago*

    My interpretation:

    • Netanyahu has already secured political control of Shin Bet (secret police) by swapping its director
    • he wants full control of the IDF, but some people haven't been willing to swear personal loyalty
    • most likely, the general advocate was one
    • those people are now removed, one by one, with various methods

    As a result, the culture of impunity can continue.

    The general advocate who was jailed - she was the person who received, among other documents (likely thousands of documents), the recommendations of the IDF internal investigators about the Rafah ambulance massacre (killing of 15 paramedics and destruction of 5 vehicles).

    The IDF recommended to do nothing, claiming that they did nothing particularly wrong, just made some mistakes (executed 15 unarmed medics, some at close range with their hands bound, and tried to conceal the deed).

    I don't know what she would have done, but my reading of the background and signals suggests she might have recommended criminal charges. That would have made her removal absolutely vital for the Netanyahu regime.

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  • [–] 46 points 1 year ago (18 children)

    Any possible relevant comment I want to make violates site policy. They are the 21st century Nazis.

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  • [+] -30 points 1 year ago* (15 children)

    The Nazis were German fascists who thought the Jewish population was inhibiting their destiny of creating a master race. Israel does not maintain any of these views so while they are Israeli fascists they are not Nazis.

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  • [–] 18 points 1 year ago (12 children)
  • [+] -29 points 1 year ago (11 children)

    Nah, it’s messed up to make direct comparisons between Nazis and Jewish people, Roma people or any other ethnicity that was targeted for elimination by Nazis.

    It isn’t pedantry as much as it is anti-racism.

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  • [–] 22 points 1 year ago (7 children)

    A person bullied can still be a bully. A person that was horrifically abused can still be an abuser.

    The Israelis in power are now ethnic cleansing Palestinians. Being Jewish or not doesn't even factor into the equation.

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  • [+] -21 points 1 year ago (6 children)

    Ok buddy but nothing you write changes what “Nazi” means. Nazis are German fascists. Israeli fascists are not German fascists so they cannot be Nazis.

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  • [–] 11 points 1 year ago (3 children)

    Do you think maybe that the person who originally made that comment knows this? Everyone else knew what they were saying, and I'm pretty sure you did too.

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  • [+] -7 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    I think the dipshit who made this claim is not any more intelligent or informed than the dipshits that agree with it. The only real question at hand is how much of this comparison is just racism masking itself as something based around morality.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (1 child)

    Stop defending Nazis. You're clearly a fascist yourself. Nobody else could possibly be interested in splitting the Nazi/Israel hair like this.

    We see you. We hear you. The gulag beckons.

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  • You know nothing about me and you clearly have a poor grasp on what is fascism given your reply. You don’t need to learn more about me but you should correct your complete lack of understanding as to what fascism is.

    Im not arguing for Israel. I am outright stating they aren’t Nazis. Their government is much closer to the Jim Crowe era USA which while racist was similarly not a Nazi government.

    The other thing I am calling attention to is the racism that is inherent in comparing Jewish people or any of the targets of Nazi genocide with the Nazis themselves. That’s really fucked up and no one should be doing this (though it is really common among the .ml crowd which is weird). p

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  • [–] 46 points 1 year ago

    The torture video shaking Israel to its core because it leaked not because of the event happening. The leak is perceived as treason by the majority of Israel and they are fine with the tortures..

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  • [–] 40 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    one of their ministers is publicly bragging about treating prisoners like shit and humiliating them, jails have posters of gaza in rumbles with the caption "the new gaza"

    https://www.youtube.com/shorts/-LvbfPaST-c

    https://www.youtube.com/shorts/7G4r2nALEt0

    https://www.youtube.com/shorts/TODpIN1Wchc

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  • [–] 11 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    Shout out to the future terrorist attacks fueled by the abuse these Israeli's put these people through. You asked for this by treating people like animals. Just like I told my buddies in Iraq and Afghanistan. Kill a non-combatant and create 20 new combatants.

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  • [–] 51 points 1 year ago (22 children)

    I'm guessing "shaking Israel to its core" is hyperbole.

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  • [–] 17 points 1 year ago (20 children)

    Then you have no idea how unpopular Bibi and his genocide is...

    Like, he hasn't stopped elections for years because he's afraid he'll win too much, the next election him and his cronies are out of power.

    They're supposed to be every year, last was 2022 right before the attack IDF was somehow unaware of despite having the best surveillance network in the world...

    Like, it's kind of a big coincidence that happened right before Bibi was going to get voted out, and it's been an excuse to keep him in office another 4 years

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  • [–] 21 points 1 year ago* (3 children)

    Voted out? Wasn’t he about to be removed from office to be sentenced for financial crimes just before the war started?

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  • [–] 19 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    Yes he should have been in prison just like trump

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  • [–] 18 points 1 year ago (12 children)

    how unpopular Bibi and his genocide is...

    Netanyahu would likely get voted out because of his mishandling and killing of hostages and his corruption but the genocide itself still enjoys widespread popularity in israeli. If there was an election, a slightly different right wing zealot would likely win.

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  • [+] -7 points 1 year ago* (11 children)

    Hasn't been true for months... (Actually probably well over a year by now...)

    Sixty-nine percent of Israelis support ending the war in exchange for a deal that releases all remaining hostages in Gaza, compared to 21% who oppose such a trade, according to a poll aired by Channel 12 Friday.

    https://www.timesofisrael.com/69-of-israelis-54-of-coalition-voters-back-ending-war-in-exchange-for-hostages-poll/

    That was like 8 months ago, but pretty sure it was much earlier

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  • [–] 13 points 1 year ago (10 children)

    That seems to me to be about hostages, rather than the genocide.

    One in five still think killing palestinians is more important than saving the lives of hostages, but that doesn't mean all of the other four in five oppose having killed all those palestinians.

    People are upset about netanyahu prolonging the war and killing hostages for the sake of his career, but that's not the same thing as opposing genocide.

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  • [–] -5 points 1 year ago (9 children)

    Give me a minute to read all the sources and polling numbers you just provided...

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  • [–] 14 points 1 year ago* (7 children)

    I'm just pointing out that poll doesn't support your argument. Prioritizing hostages is just not the same as opposing genocide.

    From 5 months ago: 82% want to expell all palestinians in gaza and 47% want to kill every man woman and child

    From june: 64% believe they are no innocents in gaza, which justifies killing even children.

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  • [+] -13 points 1 year ago (6 children)

    So...

    but the genocide itself still enjoys widespread popularity in israeli

    You admit you were wrong?

    Glad to hear!

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  • [–] 10 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    Is there a word for this? It's not exactly a strawman cause that would involve creating a separate argument to win. But what is it called when you just ignore literally everything and declare victory? A bush? A bushman argument maybe?

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    You don’t think about 47% to 64% of the population holding a position counts as widespread? Then I guess your 69% favoring getting hostages back over continuing the in the here and now aren’t widespread either.

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  • [–] 0 points 1 year ago* (1 child)

    It's always strange how like a day after I block someone...

    I get replies from accounts who haven't been active in months, suddenly jump in and want to continue an argument for the account I stopped replying to.

    Benefit of the doubt, why would you think I wanted to continue this after I stopped replying to people?

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago

    My last post was yesterday so I don’t know what you are talking about inactivity. It may be that you don’t see them due to language filters I guess.

    I came across your comment which seemed to display either a severe misunderstanding or egregious bad faith. I wanted to call it out while making it clear why your comment was so wrong. Whether you want to continue the conversation is up to you. If you do, that’s great, if you don’t then my comment is there for others stumbling across it like I did.

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  • [–] 5 points 1 year ago

    https://www.israeltoday.co.il/read/poll-strong-majority-of-israelis-back-idf-push-into-gaza-city/

    "As international commentators wring their hands over the war in Gaza, Israelis themselves are clear: the battle is not over, and it must be won.

    A new poll released Wednesday night shows a striking 65% majority of Israelis support the capture of Gaza City and the central refugee camps—still largely under Hamas control—compared to 32% opposed. Just 3% said they had no opinion."

    I don't think someone can be this ignorant so I will just assume you're a shill.

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  • [–] 4 points 1 year ago* (2 children)

    Right. So they're already:

    wildly unpopular

    impossible to vote out

    What does this incident do to change that? Nothing

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago

    I mean...

    I feel like I'm going to have to explain everything about Israel's government for you to even have a chance of understanding this...

    Do you even know how the dissolution of a Knesset works?

    If not, don't you think you should learn how it works instead of making assumptions?

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  • [–] 25 points 1 year ago (1 child)
    1. Paywall.

    2. Yeah of course Israel is shocked.

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  • [–] 24 points 1 year ago
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