Be the change you want to see in the world.
throws a Molotov at the next flying cruiser
Be the change you want to see in the world.
throws a Molotov at the next flying cruiser
Oh totally. billionaires carbon footprint is many orders of magnitude larger than multiple lifetimes and generations of us normies. Abolish billionaires. Redistribute that wealth. The environmental future we want - NOW.
And yet, there aren't very many of them but there are billions of us.
Even if their lifestyles result in 1000x as much pollution, they only represent 0.00004% of the worldwide population, which is not enough to move the needle.
To put that in perspective, metro Tokyo has a population of approximately 38 million. If the fraction of billionaires in Tokyo matches the global ratio, there would be about 15 billionaires in Tokyo. Anything 15 people do in Tokyo will be just noise compared to what the other 37,999,985 people do.
Let's just pretend that all 3000 of the world's billionaires lived in the USA. They'd still only make up 0.001% of the entire US population. Even if they were flying around in personal jets, being followed by Airbus Beluga jets carrying their yachts, it would still pale in comparison to the sheer number of people currently suffering in economy class right now.

I still think billionaires should be squashed by a hydraulic press, but I'm not kidding myself into thinking that doing that will have any impact on the environment at all. I support it more because they're greedy assholes who are taking far more than their share, and who are using their immense wealth to distort the well functioning governing of the world.
They tricked us into taking all the blame for climate change, so we’re busting our ass off to reduce and they don’t even pretend to care. In truth we could do more for the environment with guillotines than paper straws
Did they?
I can't recall anyone ever being anything but nonplussed and skeptical about paper straws. From what I can tell, it was a product of a think tank that pushed into the news, which then caused businesses to treat that as though it were public demand and pushed it out to everyone, and most people shrugged, used the obviously inferior product (because it was free and the alternatives require attention), and then people got on with their day.
On the wider scale this was pitched as 'the only thing you can personally do to combat climate change' - but I suspect it is the literal strawman of a figurative progressive position, purposely pushing a manufactured defective solution as a means to distract and suppress more substantive change and organization thereof.
I'm so confused by you guys, how is reducing the amount of single use plastics in the environment a bad thing?
Metal straws are nice
Yeah, but I'm terrible about carrying them with me
Wheat stalk straws are surprisingly good. Don't need to wash them like metal and silicone ones.
I love my metal straws. Great for smoothies and milkshakes. They don't collapse!
Might get expensive to give one away with every drink
Yeah the last time I drank a can of coke it was crazy expensive. Like an entire dollar or some shit.
Metal straws are annoying to clean. You can’t just put them in the dishwasher, but have to use more water washing by hand and need to buy a specific tool just for that.
But why are we using straws at all? Just say no
some people's necks don't bend right. straws are a medical device
That’s where you’re going? Out of the billions of straws used every day, you’re concerned about the edge case where it’s medically useful? By all means go for the plastic single use. Medicine is a huge user of that and there’s no realistic alternative. Hospitals and nursing homes get universal exemptions. It’s also a tiny fraction of single use plastic straw waste.
can i interrupt your whine to remind you i answered your question
Thank you for interrupting our discussion of zebras where everything is striped black or white, by reminding us they’re striped light gray and dark gray
you wanted to know why people use them and "PFFF THATS AN EDGE CASE" do you feel this way about all disadvantaged groups or just the disabled?
it’s literally the edge case, and insignificant to the actual point being made. you excused like a few thousand uses of the straw, maybe. don’t excuse the thousands of metric tons thrown out every year
edge cases are more important than the average person, fire alarms saving someone's life is an edge case the default is going off for no reason.
what are you talking about?
the equivalent use in your example would be the fire department getting an alarm for every building in the world multiple times a day being ok, because they might show up right when a fire breaks out!
again, you are justifying thousands of pounds of land waste for the very few who might need to use a straw due to some medical issue.
it would be better to not use straws, and just have them purchasable by those who need them for medical reasons.
Because my teeth are going bad and straws help
Thats something I wasn’t aware of, but clearly there are medical needs. I’m still confident that’s a small minority.
You’re right that we need to stop trying to make things binary, like a blanket prohibition. But we should be able to just say no to casual use of single use plastic straws and the remaining exceptions are probably no big deal. It’s not the hundreds of thousands of medically useful single use plastic straws every day that are the problem. But the hundreds of millions, or billions, of casual use
Fuck the billionaires that do that, but that doesn't mean that me using a straw isnt still making the shit worse. At least I can sleep at night knowing I am not making the situation worse, and I will still try to vote for politicians that are fighting against the billionaires
The non mushy straws aren't terrible, but all rubberized tires are, whether on cars or bikes. The car ones are much worse.
And air travel is even worse still
But not close to industrial pollution which is exponentially greater.
The billionaires could care more and put some R&D into it. They just dont.
It's replacing real action in place of a good feeling. It's THE plan to not do anything effective.
Agree with this take. It's like yeah electric cars are technically better, but any advantage they have over combustion engines is blown away by things like public transportation, or designing walkable/cyclable cities.
Our solutions can't just rely on swapping out for "greener" tech. We need radical changes to how we are currently living in order to ensure a livable future.
There is no future that is not radical. This gradualist, neolib (let's make sure all the investors get a chance to divest from dirty tech before switching!) fantasy will fuck us. It's been fucking us for a hundred years. It's time to try literally anything else.
With adequate public transportation, it becomes much more comfortable and convenient.
My city installed a few additional bike paths, and added some more buses, and the difference is huge.
I don't even need a car except when traveling longer distances.
You've got to invest in it before it gets good. You've got decades of car centric infrastructure inertia making cars the more convenient choice. All you've got to do is invest just enough to make alternatives actually possible.
I don't know the challenges of your specific infrastructure, but there are certainly improvements that could be made
Indeed, I think something's got to give if we're to have any future worth living. Probably very many things should change. I'm a bit of an misanthrope myself, so getting used to more communal arrangements is painful.
Would you be more likely to champion a less attractive option if it was part of a larger initiative to make a better world?
Sorry, but I am confiscating your moral license if the straw you use is justification.
The straw you use does nothing but make you feel better, which I would argue is harmful. You shouldn't feel better for doing nothing when such large problems exist.
Your use of the right straw is akin to you killing a single invasive ant in a rain forest, and saying you did your part to remove the invasive colony. You then spend every opportunity talking about how you killed that single ant, all while the ants have already multiplied and utterly nullified your non-effort contribution.
Shipping barges, data centers, meat production, gas and coal burning are all many orders of magnitudes greater problems than what straw you use. Gas, coal, and fossil fuel use is over 70% of all emissions, so that should be the primary conversation. In addition, these are all growing in use. Talk about that. Put your attention and action towards that.
The straw is a metaphor for doing what you can in your own world no matter how small, not the absolute culmination of all the good that we've done.
We can all do much more than straws.
Edit: let me rephrase this. Unless you are a billionaire, there is nothing you can do individually that matters. The problem requires banding together and holding these people accountable. This requires honest communication so people at least understand what the real problem is.
Given we are barely at the honest communication stage and ignorance is running rampant, and that we have a fast approaching deadline before nothing we do will work, I do not have much optimism for the survival of our species.
While this scum is allowed allocate all of the world's resources; every drop of water you conserve goes to their data centers and pleasure fleets.
There is no conservation until they're gone. It simply cannot be done.
Companies 3 years ago: helping the environment is part of our core values
The same companies one day later: start to heavily use and train AI
helping the environment is part of our core values
By the way, back to commuting to/from the office, people!
you are being generous. They are more like
"Under enlightened Trump's benevolent leadership we have realized that environmental concerns, inclusivity, modern medicine and preventing political misinformation are all woke scams. Therefore effective immediately we are ditching all our efforts in these directions."
Amazon bought an entire arena and named it "climate pledge arena". You can't make this shit up
I mean yes, but it's not like they use an extra drop for every drop conserved, it's still okay to not be wasteful.
why is your local council providing 2 bins but sending everything to the one place?
when you bought it up what did they say?
Recycling centers try and then often give up and just landfill plastic. And then you're dealing with the extra transportation to have it make a stop at the recycling plant on the way to the landfill.
There is a lot of "shift the blame off corporations to the consumer and act like they can do something" happening when in reality the consumer can't do much, and what we can do isnt 100% effective anyway.
That's funny because over here in Australia it looks to be progressing well?
For us it's a yellow bin for recycling
Visy – what happens to your household recycling
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yXSmINKUOxg
Most Australian states have a 10c refund when you return a can or bottle:

Do you have this?
You can even then directly donate it to a charity of your choice: https://www.containersforchange.com.au/qld/donate-your-refund
On top of this if you use https://oceanhero.today/ for searching the money they make from ads goes towards paying people in poor countries to collect plastic
Australia wide we're slowly phasing out single use plastics:

https://www.marineconservation.org.au/which-australian-states-are-banning-single-use-plastics/
That's already reducing the amount of plastic by millions of tons
There's also smaller things like:
Our new cards are made from 100% recycled plastic*, with 64% collected from coastal communities by Parley for the Oceans™.
https://www.bankaust.com.au/card
Recycling centers try and then often give up and just landfill plastic
Sounds like defeatist mentality to me, your councils/states should be doing better
Canada's west coast is the same. Despite some reports implying the contrary, properly sorted flexible plastic waste does get diverted away from landfills and oceans and remade into product, in BC. And we also have bottle and can deposits, like most Canadian provinces (called consigne/consignment in Québec).
Apparently bottle deposits are only a thing in 10 of 50 US states.
Bread tags? What do they do instead? The only choices Ive seen are a stupid plastic tile or a wire, and I can’t imagine single use wire is better than a stupid single use plastic tile
cardboard :D
https://playandgo.com.au/australias-first-100-recycled-recyclable-cardboard-bread-tags-tip-top/
The new bread tags will launch on South Australian shelves first, removing 11 million plastic bread tags from South Australian waste streams by the end of 2021 and divert over 400 million plastic bread tags from landfill each year as they roll out nationally. By 2025, all Tip Top’s packaging will be 100 per cent recyclable, reusable or compostable to help close-the-loop
afaik they're all cardboard now even other brands, I don't think I've seen a plastic one in a while
Neat. Do they work, or do they just bend the first time you recluse a bag?
ngl no idea, even with plastic ones i threw them out on first go and just fold the bread bag under :|
It's more than just plastic. In most places most things are not recycled. More accurate to say: in vanishingly few places is even a single kind of thing recycled. Then every scrap we save goes not to sustainability, but golf courses pleasure yachts and data centers to sloppify the world.
So saving is not conservation. You literally cannot make a positive impact environmentally unless you're good at violence.
That’s needlessly pessimistic, but I’ll believe general consumer recycling programs are not very effective.
Most of all I believe my city’s consumer recycling is fairly effective because of the number of things they have specific steps/actions/destinations for. More importantly we don’t have a landfill and the one we use is very expensive, so there’s a profit motive for minimizing what we dispose of
While this scum is allowed allocate all of the world’s resources; every drop of water you conserve goes to their data centers and pleasure fleets.
Does it? If everyone in America reduced the amount of water they used would data centres and yachts use it all up? Do you believe this?
Yes. Oh my god they have said they want this. They didn't have to say, but they have.
He didn’t mean water literally (yet, as we are running out of non-salt water…)
But we have (and likely will) if it were to come to rationing their pools would be prioritized our bath or even drinking water
They waste so much more on data centers. They literally send used water to sewer; cheaper than cooling it for recirculation. This is standard.
He didn’t mean water literally
It's still nonsensical, this idea that any savings at all are pointless particularly when you're talking about small impact spread across 350 million americans and 400 million europeans, it adds up to far more than any data centre could ever hope
Take solar panels for example and the impact they have had:
We're now emitting 5-8 million LESS tons of co2 per month and regularly have oversupply because there's too much renewables in the grid:

We now have a booming battery rebate because we need far more storage than solar:
Since the launch of the Cheaper Home Batteries Program on July 1, roughly 161MW of home battery power has been added to the grid per month. At the current pace, the amount added in about 18 months will match the output of Eraring power station – Australia’s biggest coal-fired power plant
https://www.solarquotes.com.au/blog/battery-rebate-to-deliver-a-coal-plant-of-power-in-18-months/
This is just from regular people like you or I making a small contribution that benefits themselves and the environment
Same with mushy straws but tbh we don't even really do that anymore do you guys not have something like
The Planet Straw eco-friendly, Biodegradable, Compostable, and Recyclable, Planet-based PHA straws
They're basically a drop in for plastic straws you wouldn't know the difference
And still globally the fraction of renewables in electricity gen, and even primary energy consumption (counting renewable elec gen as "primary"), remains pretty steadfast at the levels of the 1990s. The basic reason is that they're subsidising electricity, making it cheaper and people ( and I count both final consumers and intermediate producers as "people") are using more of it. The only meaningful hiatuses in the growth of demand was the major recessions in 2008 and 2020, but consumption largely bounced back after those.
Savings are not totally pointless, but reducing prices of something does tend to increase consumption, and erode a notable amount (but granted probably not all) of savings. The earth's human economy is largely set up to extract and use resources, give it more resources and it grows and extracts and uses more. We're not going to let large amounts of cheap (or subsidised) resources sit there and go unexploited.
Adding new generation capacity has some similarity to adding a new lane to a busy highway. Induced demand.
From a Europe/EEC point of view It has been major restriction on coal generation (LCPD, IED, and to a minimal extent the EU-ETS) - that has reduced coal use in generation. Renewables doesn't directly drive out fossil fuel gen , I think it has to be regulated out. Same will be with transport, if you don't ban petrol, and just subsidise electric transport, there'll be more trips you wont reduce petrol consumption. And even if you could ban petrol in cars, someone somewhere will start finding a way to use all that cheap fuel for something. The only saving grace for transport is that electric mass transit is way more efficient , than personal transport, and at least China knows what its doing on that front. But I'd be very worried for the planet as more and more people in India continue to start getting cars - I think they'll easily become a market for any petrol saved by EVs elsewhere..
And still globally the fraction of renewables in electricity gen, and even primary energy consumption (counting renewable elec gen as “primary”), remains pretty steadfast at the levels of the 1990s
I think this might be out of date info, renewables (thanks mainly to china tbh) are now the cheapest form of power and surging with installations:
World surpasses 40% clean power as renewables see record rise
https://ember-energy.org/latest-insights/global-electricity-review-2025/#executive-summary
Savings are not totally pointless, but reducing prices of something does tend to increase consumption
Good old Jevons
Adding new generation capacity has some similarity to adding a new lane to a busy highway. Induced demand.
I don't agree with this, yes there is an increase in energy usage, I am technically using more electricity than ever from thanks to cheap solar because I fill up my car with 40kw worth of electricity every few weeks, but at the same time I now use 0L of petrol and no gas at all so it's not exactly adding a lane to the highway if I've reduced my energy use elsewhere and added it on to renewables, it's the same number of lanes but now I'm 100% renewable
We also have visible signs it's eating into fossil fuels:
Closure of Spain’s biggest coal plant makes way for massive wind power development
UK to finish with coal power after 142 years
https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c5y35qz73n8o
The Australian Energy Market Operator is predicting that the country’s remaining coal fired generators are likely to close much quicker than expected, saying they are becoming less reliable, more difficult to maintain and less able to compete with the growing share of renewables.
AEMO’s draft 2024 Integrated System Plan, the latest version of its 30-year planning blueprint, suggests coal fired generation will be gone from Queensland and Victoria within a decade – by 2033/34 – and that the last coal unit will close in NSW by 2038.
Same will be with transport, if you don’t ban petrol, and just subsidise electric transport, there’ll be more trips you wont reduce petrol consumption
This doesn't make sense to me, if you were talking about cheaper petrol then sure, but if I replace my petrol car with an EV, even if I do more trips it's still electricity, petrol usage has dropped to 0 despite an increase in trips
And we're still in the very early years with EV's, we have only just started pushing out electric trucks and buses, speaking of: Brisbane just got our first electric buses earlier in the year!
Onboard the new Brisbane Metro (now with added Chilli)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4oWDE4zh2FA
They are so quiet it's crazy!
tldr: I think your premise is that electricity usage is increasing and renewables are supplying it but not eating into fossil fuels and I don't think this is true, the last few years solar, EV and battery innovation has been leaps and bounds
As an example I bought this in Jan 2023 for 14k: https://sonnen.com.au/sonnenbatterie-evo/
10kw
Today for 5.5k I can get 40kw:
OK, I'll wait til the 2024 and 2025 data are out and see the radical change - but the past 30 years pretty much support my "outdated" view. I don't accept that you putting no petrol in your car means petrol consumption is lower - someone else can (and almost certainly will) still use it somewhere somehow in some vehicle or other. Unless you're still buying it and burying in the ground somewhere no one can find it.
In short - top line goes up faster than the renewables wedge grows ---> global warming increases. In fact the fossil fuel wedges also grow as much or more than renewables. Maybe this will become more than a blip - maybe. But realistically I look at the graph above and 2008, 2020 are the things that stand out as a lesson.
People need fewer datacentres not more, wherever they're located. I think people just need to take a long hard look at themselves and see whether they can survive by jerking off to 360p or 720p porn - it is just about exactly as hollow and unfulfilling as jerking off to 4K AI generated porn.
I wouldn't use datacenters if I could get a static ip address, or even just ipv6, but those are more expensive than just renting a vm in a far away place
it is just about exactly as hollow and unfulfilling as jerking off to 4K AI generated porn.
gasp I can't believe you said that in front of my 4k ai girlfriend!
top line goes up faster than the renewables wedge grows —> global warming
Yeah but there's two parts here, one is that it's not us or the data centres:
In contrast, India recorded the highest absolute increase in emissions, adding 164.8 Mt CO2eq compared to 2023, a 3.9% rise. Indonesia saw the most significant relative increase at 5%, followed by Russia (+2.4%) and China (+0.8%). The US and Brazil had relatively stable emissions with minor increases.
India adding 164 million tons of co2 more than it did the year before, that's a shitload of data centres
The EU and US and Australia/NZ/UK all have emissions trending down, we're playing our part, this place beats itself up a lot when if the rest of the world was like us we'd be well on our way down
I think they're just catching up to what countries like the UK did over the past 200 years. So a few hundred thousand more Indian people can afford cars or international holidays these days - that seems fair enough. what's the indian GHG emisiions per capita? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_greenhouse_gas_emissions_per_capita sorry still old data, but 2023 they were not much over half the UK , so what is the fair share of ghg emissions for a person in India? Any why should it be lower than , say, UK - who has a centuries old legacy of fucking the climate. The UK has a hell of a lot more reducing ghg per person to do before it can be any sort of role model -b and thats after nerfing it's own heavy industry and not counting GHG embodied in imports.
Back before the twats here (UK) had let the banks offshore domestic manufacturing, you might have had a point, but greenhouse gas intensity of the economy here in UK was a lot higher when we actually did shit like transforming iron ore into useful products.
With widespread international supply chains for so much stuff, I'm not convinced by nationalistic parochialism. At least not without doing a lot of fairly complex import/export and supply / use analysis across industries and from primary through to tertiary to figure out who is really providing for whom.
The simplistic way i see it; It's a world full of humans (or as i like to say, cunts), they do stuff, they trade their products. some people directly do carbon intensive processes, others buy stuff off them. At the end of the day, if everyone was 'postindustrial', it'd be a very interesting and different 'economy' and i think very different lifestyles, and a very different capacity to support the human population. I'd like to think the bubble'd last about as well as the Hindenburg blimp.
I disagree with measuring in per capita, I argued further here: https://aussie.zone/post/25024450/19010578
Any why should it be lower than , say, UK - who has a centuries old legacy of fucking the climate
Because the tech wasn't available at the time and now with renewables being the cheapest form of electricity it's straight up insulting that you'd pick coal, gas I can understand due to its ability to quickly fill in for solar/wind gaps but coal... :|
If you're going to argue that India should be free to copy the west and build coal power plants like we did 50 years ago before solar/batteries/wind etc took off then what are we even doing here? lets just give up because if India lives like the west did 60 years ago it's over
some people directly do carbon intensive processes, others buy stuff off them
This part I agree with, it comes up a lot lately with AI data centres, people from the west devastated that they have to host the stuff that they use 😭 but also whenever mining is involved people get really upset, especially people in the EU
I've argued the EU and US in part run a false green economy, the lithium and critical minerals in your phones and computers has to come from somewhere and mining has an awful environmental impact locally. Saying your green but ignoring that you get China do it isn't a win at all imo, it's a joke.
Per capita is not relevant to climate change, but it is relevant to understand the situation lifestyles motivation and economic development of people. I think there has to be a concept of a fair share.
'Keep them foreigners poor because we fucked up the planet' is not going to convince many people - outside of those who drink the greenwash koolaid and don't see that we continue to emit way more than our fair share. Granted the UK is in about the worst position here, because of history that meant countries like India effectively were forced to pay the UK to fuck it up so its a double fuck-you if i were to say that.
India just won't stay poor anyway and no one is going to stop western and middle eastern oil companies wanting more cars in 'emerging markets' .
I'm not saying they should replicate UK as it was in 1980. But if we're so clean now, having achieved what i call ' far too little, far too late' why can't developing countries catch up their lifestyles to ours today - the answer is we're not clean and they shouldn't - but they probably will and I can't blame them for it.
China must laugh at shitholes like the UK, can't build Nukes (hinkley point C is what 10-12 years and counting behind schedule?) , can't build high speed rail, can't invest in decent public transportation, doesn't build hydro because of fucking poets and fucking daffodils and yokels fucking sheep, and tries at every turn to follow US's stupendously inefficient and self indulgent 'sprawl' model or housing instead of densifying population efficiently.
You're right that the UK isn't in tip top shape, I would have loved to have visited the UK 20 years ago and I sit here today amazed that Nigel Farage, the guy who lead England up shit creek without a paddle ON PURPOSE is leading the polls... that's pretty dire.
But you do have something you can be proud of, your emissions have dropped tremendously:

While India

and China

Have blown the UK away, if more countries were like the UK we'd be talking about how the war on climate change was won with flying colours.
Non-comparable! In say California there is severe water restrictions even limits shower lengths at times yet pools can still be filled… If the rich weren’t allowed to take up inorbitant amounts of resources say for bezos private airspace tourism or megajacts then there would be a lot more left to us…
But lets talk about personal impact too! Imagine if instead of leaving it to up you to maybe change something the country made the investment? Like it could from the subsidies provided for the solar panels in most countries ( know for a fact thats the case in the us, Germany and Hungary)! And then then the change wouldn’t be a few percentage points, it would actually be considerable!
Yes, because the price of water would drop due to lower demand from the public, and so they could steal even more for data centers.
Do you believe this? Texas residents asked to conserve water while AI data centers use millions of gallons
No
The Houston Advanced Research Center, an independent nonprofit research organization focusing on sustainability solutions, estimates that existing data centers in Texas will consume approximately 25 billion gallons of water, or 0.4% of the state’s total water use in 2025.
https://www.texastribune.org/2025/09/25/texas-data-center-water-use/
Nobody:
Larry Ellison: Buys an entire 90,000 acre Hawaiian Island just because
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