Yet another video talking about silksong's difficulty, but this one is from someone who knows what theyre talking about

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[–] 38 points 1 year ago (17 children)

It took Silksong coming out for me to identify why I wasn't a fan of Hollow Knight, and it's touched on in this video.

It's the runback.

The Dark Souls series of games have the same "problem", and it's why I don't enjoy them either.

I'm a huge fan of Celeste, Super Meat Boy, the Ori series. When I fail at these games, I'm right back in the action.

I'm not against having to learn boss patterns, I really enjoyed Cuphead because after I've failed I'm right back in the action.

And while it's an easier game by comparison, Shovel Knight was a fun game. The checkpoints were plentifully and I could increase the difficulty by destroying them.

But when I played Hollow Knight I reached a point where I was just running to the boss and dying. Then again. And again. And again. I wasn't getting better. And the time it took to get back just took too long and wasn't fun. It wasn't a rage quit. I was having fun at one point... But then the game wore me down and eventually it wasn't.

I don't think the game needs to change. Although I think adding difficultly modifiers would be a good idea. I played through Metroid Dread on normal difficulty and after beating it was having so much fun I immediately played it again on Hard difficulty. If there were a mode with more checkpoints in Hollow Knight and Silksong I might give them a shot.

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  • [–] 8 points 1 year ago

    Very well stated, and echoes my sentiment exactly.

    My game time is precious to me and sitting with that feeling of failure while I waste time just getting back to zero feels bad to me. I'd rather be, you know, making some sort of progress.

    It's a gorgeous game, very lovingly crafted. But I would cheer for some built in accessibility options akin to the most recent Ninja Gaiden that let me dial in the experience I want.

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  • [–] 5 points 1 year ago*

    For me it wasn't so much the runback, as it was fighting your spirit every time. I hated that. Especially if you died in a difficult platforming section. It only made it more difficult.

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  • [–] 3 points 1 year ago

    Same, this is why I like Hyper Light Drifter. Boss fights are hard, but when die you are instantly back at the fight.

    I tried playing the Titan Souls but it was really annoying game. It is a boss rush game where both you are boss die in one hit. So some times you can die instantly when boss fight starts. Issue is that there is really long load times and you have to walk back to boss (and there isn't even combat). Some times walking back to the boss takes longer than the time you fought the boss.

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  • [–] 4 points 1 year ago

    Exactly, as an adult with a job I have very little time to game as is, the last thing I need is losing progress and then having to grind through a part of the game I've been through already many times till I reach a difficult boss battle, just auto save the game at critical check points so people can continue from where they last failed quickly

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  • [–] 4 points 1 year ago*

    The Souls games really depend on which game in the series you're playing. They actually learned what was good and what wasn't. The boss runs are extremely short in most of them. Hell, a lot of Elden Ring respawn points are at the boss door. 2 is really the worst here, and mostly just the DLC bosses (fuck both runs to either smelter demon, tho).

    Hollow Knight's are so, so bad. I get from what I see about Silk Song, it's more or less the same if not worse. :(

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (4 children)

    I think the runback is important. When you instantly spawn back in the fight you're basically banging your head on the boss with zero pressure until you beat it. But with the runback in darksouls you're forced to reset after each failed attempt and fight your way back. It makes boss fights feel more like boss fights in my opinion because there is that pressure of being sent back to the bonfire if you make a mistake against this powerful enemy.

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  • [–] 10 points 1 year ago (3 children)

    I think the run back is fun for some people and I think the game should deliver the best version they can for those people. For me, it's just not fun. The reward is smaller than the frustration it causes.

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  • [–] 4 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    I dont think fun is the right word because I dont think the run back is fun. Its annoying and everytime I die on the runback I am annoyed. But it helps me to slow down and stops me from tilting hard and dying 50x to the first boss attack. Instead I tilt and die 50x to the first skeleton near the bonfire :p

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    For some people 'fun' is the primary reason they play games. If they aren't fun, they better have a whole lot else going for them. Personally I play games to unwind, so any type of 'frustrating' is a hard no from me. I get plenty of that in my day job. But not all games need to be for me and that's fine. I just wish people could understand that not all of us are looking for a 'sense of accomplishment' from playing a video game. I get that some people value that, great, stop acting like everyone needs to be the same

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  • [–] 3 points 1 year ago

    I just wish people could understand that not all of us are looking for a ‘sense of accomplishment’ from playing a video game. I get that some people value that, great, stop acting like everyone needs to be the same

    Yeah this is why I think the 'easy mode' debate is so pointless. Majority of games cater to a frictionless generalized experience with a low barrier to entry (which I find very boring). The few games that try to challenge the players that like to be challenged arent designed to be for everyone. If every game was darksouls i'd understand the 'easy mode' side of the argument a lot more.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (6 children)

    I think the runback is important to give you time to think. You can repeatedly attempt a difficult section of a game with a ton of checkpoints and get through it without actually learning it properly. You essentially get lucky that your hands do the right thing just enough to get by.

    Imagine going to a piano recital where the person keeps messing up and repeating a difficult passage of the music, never actually being able to play the entire thing without making a mistake! That’s just not very impressive!

    The goal of playing a difficult game should be to improve your skills and get better, figure out new strategies and use them in battle, not merely reach the end.

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  • [–] 10 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    And here I thought the goal of playing a game was to enjoy my limited free time.

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  • [–] 5 points 1 year ago

    It is, but different people enjoy different things. Hard games like this focus on long term goals and achieving mastery as the source of fun. Other games aim to be more relaxing.

    I like all types of games. I just think it’s a bit silly when people argue “why isn’t this orange more like a banana?”

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  • [–] 7 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    most runbacks are nothing but time wasters, some are platforming challenges and others are avoid the enemies in the way which you've avoided plenty of times before if you are having actual problems with the boss.

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  • [–] 3 points 1 year ago

    Of course. But that’s often a sign of bad game design. Difficulty should follow a smooth curve. Enormous difficulty spikes are what you expect from old games in the 80s.

    But there’s also an element to mastery that gamers seem to completely neglect: downtime. I finished my math degree a couple of years ago and throughout that entire process I got stuck on math assignments thousands of times. Bashing my head against a wall trying to solve the problem right now rarely worked. I had much better success putting the pencil down and coming back to the problem later, after a period of downtime.

    Since graduating I’ve been revisiting a lot of old NES games that I never finished growing up because they were too difficult. Since I’m busy with work I don’t have a ton of time to play every day. This forced downtime actually has the benefit of getting me to think and reflect on my approach, just as I would expect it to!

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  • [–] 3 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    I mean if I'm going to spend time practicing something it's certainly going to be an instrument and not a video game.

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  • That’s fair! I’ve often levelled this same argument against my friend when it comes to mastery and video games.

    I mainly play video games during my lunch break at work. It would not really make sense to practice a musical instrument in the office.

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  • [–] 6 points 1 year ago* (2 children)

    Very good video that lines up with a lot of my own thoughts (yay).

    That said? I think I fundamentally disagree with the idea that everyone should be able to beat every game for narrative reasons. My preference is for something similar to what Nine Sols did (AMAZING boss fights. Dogshit metroidvania and traversal), but I don't fundamentally believe that everyone needs to be able to experience every game. Like, you can make an "easy mode" for DCS but... the point of that game is the fidelity and turning all of that off just feels "wrong"? At the end of the day, it is up to the devs and what they want people to consider "accomplishment" to be.

    And we live in the internet age. I remember beating Arkham Knight, having fun, and then deciding there was zero chance I would ever want to get all the riddler keys or fight deathstroke a dozen times and just went to youtube.

    But I 100% agree with the back half of the video. The game is very much designed to just take a break and wander off when you get frustrated. Which is where I DO wish there were more QOL features to make it clear what areas might still have a mask (preferably one you can reach) rather than needing to find a guide or try to guess. Especially when you don't even get map markers for a decent chunk early on.

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  • [–] -1 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    You can get map markers very early into the game. Basically from the first time you meet the mapmaker some 30 minutes into the game.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

    Yes. If you know ahead of time you'll prioritize those.

    If you are new to the game/genre and are struggling and even wiping occasionally? It isn't a priority.

    But there is also a big difference between having a few different pin types and just having "Well, SOMETHING was there?". Hell, I still need to get around to figuring out which of my oranges are NPCs because I wasn't sure if quest NPCs would be auto-tagged (they are, once you have a reason to talk to them again).

    Which is another factor to all of these discussions. I fairly regularly push back on Dark Souls (and its successors) being a "difficult game". It really isn't. What it is is an incredibly well designed (first half of a...) challenging game. Everything up until Amazing Chest Ahead is designed to teach you how to play the game and how to approach encounters. And once you know that? You are in really good shape for the entire genre even if it is a game that emphasizes parrying (Lies of P), blocking (Sekiro), or beautiful beautiful loot (Nioh! Aka "Best Souls"). You don't learn character builds (mostly "pick a single stat and work with it") but that comes later.

    And... some of that applies here. I know I made it WAY farther than I should have with no meaningful upgrades because I am a sicko/idiot. But for people who don't know the idea that "Hey, this crypt full of skeletons is a mofo. Maybe go somewhere else", they might be slamming their head against a wall trying to fight Last Judge for far longer than they should (although, questionable balancing decisions means that upgrading your health doesn't matter all that much but that is a different rant).

    But it is still the idea of a first game versus a fifth game as it were. And we all start somewhere.

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  • [–] 3 points 1 year ago

    There is a section in this video where he talks about game elements he thinks are "bullshit" and I don't know if I agree about any of them. But I will also admit that playing NetHack at an early age, where

    You fall into a spiked pit! The spikes were poisoned! The poison was deadly! You have died. Do you want your possessions identified?

    was a completely normal and expected way to lose a run, may have warped my sense of what counts as a fair game mechanic. ^_^;;

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  • 15 comments in c/games@sh.itjust.works view that post
    [–] 8 points 1 year ago

    i define myself by beating challenges that were inherently designed to be beaten.

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  • [–] 6 points 1 year ago

    yeah, screw that, I only get frustrated and/or angry. And even if I have the patience to eventually I beat it, it's just not worth it.

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  • [–] 16 points 1 year ago (3 children)

    What's the point of anything you aren't immediately good at?

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  • [–] 8 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    Some people enjoy studying, learning, practicing and grinding for days on end in their games. Other people have a job where they can do all that.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago

    There is something to that for sure. I derive more meaning or pleasure struggling through guitar these days and I want to just turn my brain off when I play games.

    Hasn't always been that way and I hope I doesn't stay.

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  • [–] 6 points 1 year ago (6 children)

    I have played through Hollow Knight twice so I am pretty familiar with this gameplay style and I did just recently played through Hollow knight again before this game came out. I agree this game is difficult, but it’s not that difficult. Every boss has a pattern that can be learned after three or four tries.

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  • [–] 3 points 1 year ago (3 children)

    Except Trobbio. Fuck his balls

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago

    I just defeated him. He was a bit difficult.

    I don’t know I could have upgraded the needle already, so I defeated him with the base needle.

    Then I looked up where to use the oil and found out I could have fought him with 3 needle upgrades 😂

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    You say that but then Team Cherry makes bosses

    Spoilerlike Savage Beastfly (and a rematch)
    with RNG minion spawns.

    And yes, I know you're "supposed" to use tools to quickly kill the minions, but every try uses up so many shards that you need to farm them in between tries, feeding into the broken economy. Why are there even shards as a currency in the first place if tool usage is limited and refilled every run.

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  • [–] 7 points 1 year ago

    The point is I get frustrated, then I get better. There's stakes, and every time I get a little better. I see the next phase of the boss, then it takes me multiple tries to get to that stage again. Then suddenly, nearly every time I'm getting to that phase in seconds

    This game isn't hard for the sake of being hard, it's hard because it repeatedly gives you a new challenge that seems impossible, and if you have the will to keep pushing you can overcome it. Not through luck, you just learn the patterns, and you adapt your combat style

    And once you surpass a challenge, it feels like an accomplishment. The world opens up, you're rewarded with new exploration and abilities

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago

    To have fun, some people prefer challenges, other prefer relaxation. It is good there are choices for everyone.

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  • 6 comments in c/gaming@beehaw.org view that post
    [–] 17 points 1 year ago (4 children)

    some people live the challenge in games.

    some people enjoy cozy games just to have fun

    both are absolutely good and correct in their own light.

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  • [–] 5 points 1 year ago (3 children)

    As someone who likes the difficulty of Hollow Knight and Silksong (despite being pretty bad at the game), I think the best point in the video is that it would be really nice to give the player options. I would still play on the hard setting, but there are friends I have who would love exploring the map and seeing all the amazing art, but I can't recommend the game to them because I know they'd be super frustrated within an hour or two.

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  • [–] 5 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    Dead cells has something called assist mode. Doesn’t disable achievements or anything. Personally I use it as a second chance, the only setting I’ve touched is lives. Normally in the game you die, get sent back the start. With assist mode you can respawn (either at the level start or door you crossed). I usually have it on one life extra to avoid the “that was so bullshit” deaths but still keep death an actual consequence

    It also has some stuff like bigger parry windows, lower enemy health and damage.

    IMO it’s great because people can make the game as causal and forgiving as you want

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    Those are great because they don't change the nature of the game. You just adjust the difficulty of the self-imposed challenge. It's still essentially the same experience. If you ruin the game for yourself by setting it too easy that's on you.

    When people say stuff like "I just want to explore Elden Ring", that's like watching behind-the-scenes content or looking at a concept art book of a movie without watching the movie. It can be enjoyable but it's not a complete experience, you're missing the original context entirely. I wish people realized that.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago*

    I agree with you in that people are missing out but I’m of the mind that if that’s how they want to play the game, let them. Back to dead cells, there’s also a mechanic called aspects where the game will warn you that achievements are disabled and it may make the game too easy (maybe idr if actually tells you or just implies it). So they partially or completly remove challenge. But some people don’t want to challenge themselves they just want to nuke rooms. And I’ve done that few times and being an unstoppable force of nature via abilities can be fun

    Another example is settlements with my buddy in no man’s sky. Yes he’s missing out on game content such as all building and timers wand watching the settlement grow. But he just doesn’t find that fun but rather building intricate bases and structures

    Where you say people can ruin the challenge by making it too easy 1000% agree. In dead cells nothings changing me from setting that one extra life I get, to unlimited, effectively bashing my head against a level or boss till I clear, leaving death with no consequence and as such, making it so I don’t have to git gud. My comfort zone is difficult, but a little room for error

    As for the part of easy mode or just exploring is like behind the scenes content or art books, I’m gonna have to disagree. Maybe I’m taking that to literally or missing something but I’d consider those supplemental to the original media. Like I don’t need to see a behind the scenes video to enjoy Skyrim, maybe I’ll pay more active attention to level design or how things are place to draw attention. But I can still fully enjoy the city of Whiterun without knowing the city was designed to route you through the shopping district, through the temple and up the castle.

    I see it more as a different approach or focus. People who value exploration want that to be the focus rather than having a super tough fight. Some people want both, where that super tough fight is part of the journey see what’s across that clearing over there

    TLDR, it’s about finding that sweet spot between challenging and comfortable people ARE missing content but it’s a trade off for what they find enjoyable

    Edit: this kinda turned into a rant, hopefully it makes sense

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  • [–] [S] 6 points 1 year ago

    TL;DW: Mark lays out 3 reasons why a game dev might choose to make a game challenging, discusses why it is difficult to balance difficulty, and then talks about how Silksong balances difficulty by always giving players another path to explore when they hit a boss that seems impossible.

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