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[–] 80 points 1 year ago (18 children)

Counter question; would it make any difference?

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  • [–] 38 points 1 year ago (7 children)

    That's the point - it wouldn't. People seem to expect that things would be different or meaningless if we did but I've never understood that logic. Even if we do live in the base reality it could just as well be a simulation and nothing would need to change.

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  • [–] 12 points 1 year ago (6 children)

    Exactly. Even if it was definitely proven that this is all a simulation, there is exactly zero chance humans could ever break out of it or hack or exploit or even begin to understand the machine the simulation is running on. We have still not even figured out the rules for our universe and understanding what the real universe where this is a simulation is way beyond the scope of human understanding. We could not affect it in any meaningful way except maybe some laboratory tests or cause some hideous corruption. Yet we think and feel and experience living in the only way we know. Hence, I'd argue it would not matter.

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  • [–] 9 points 1 year ago (5 children)

    This is quite literally how many religions view their divine beings. They are so massive that they are beyond your comprehension and we would be powerless to impact them.

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  • [–] 4 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    Including the Abrahamic religions except people are simple and have rewritten the mindboggling idea "can not comprehend" to punishable dogma "must not mention by name, gaze upon, depict".

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (2 children)

    Except then the same gods are really worried about what you eat, or do with your specific meat-based mammalian reproductive anatomy.

    A remote, totally amoral deity a la Lovecraft is at least consistent with facts. Nobody wants to believe in that one, though. You could go polytheist to avoid immediate falsification, too.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    The believers would argue that of course these gods have desires but you wouldn’t understand them because you cannot much like the fly in front of me cannot grasp astrophysics.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago

    Yeah. Saying "you just don't get it and never will" is a great way of defending anything you want. Even if, like in this case, it's not consistent with the facts. The "it's a sin to question, so don't or else" approach has also seen quite a bit of use.

    And for some reason, what god is telling us is always convenient for the powerful, and for the dominant culture...

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  • [–] 26 points 1 year ago (3 children)
  • [–] 3 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    A simulation could be hacked, and that's really fun to think about

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  • [–] 3 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    I think it would matter if these simulations existed if we could interact outside or between them somehow.

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  • [–] 3 points 1 year ago

    If we'd manage to communicate with parallel universes, would it matter if they are all real or simulations along with ourselves?

    How could we possibly interact with any machinery sophisticated enough to be our entire universe or the parent universe where these machines can be conceived?

    It's like pacman breaking out of assembly language and figuring out how to sneak out of the arcade.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago

    It's questionable whether it's even a well-founded question because of this. Like, it depends on your choice of theories about ontology and epistemology. This shows up if you try to do math about it, which I mentioned a bit in my own reply.

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  • [–] 13 points 1 year ago

    well, you're asking this question in a platform which has the sole purpose of presenting a digital representation of social interaction, so I'd say pretty fucking high.

    You don't need the matrix plugging needles into the back of people's heads for the world to be a simulation. smartphones and computer screens are more than enough.

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  • [–] 10 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    I figure that we are all definitely living in a simulation because, even if the world has real physical existence, consciousness is essentially a simulation created our brain to make sense of the world.

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  • [–] 27 points 1 year ago (6 children)
  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago (3 children)

    Just because we do t know something doesn’t masks it 50%

    I don’t know if there’s a gorilla in my upstairs bath at the moment but the odds aren’t 50/50

    On the question of god or a simulation, they aren’t 50/50 either

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  • [–] 14 points 1 year ago (3 children)
  • [–] 7 points 1 year ago (3 children)

    it depends, can simulations run simulations inside themselves? because if so, i think this would increase the odds. if we were able to model reality, down to the subatomic level, with perfect accuracy, then maybe there's another world simulating us. unless we're in a pretty bad or locked-down simulation that doesn't allow recursion.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago

    I think the smallest computer that can simulate the universe is the universe. Though I guess you may be able to get rid of one of the dimensions due to that one projection theory. Which means you may be able to get ride of more than one dimension. Which means maybe the universe can fit into a single infinitely dense point. So maybe we can make black hole computers. We'd just need to bend space time in a real specific way because what's the point of a computer you can't get any output from?

    tl;Dr: I bet we could figure out how to simulate a whole universe within a decently small computer. Seems hard though.

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  • Greater than zero.

    You wanna tweak your melon a bit? Look up "Last Thursdayism." It's a thing — due to the way short term and long term memory work, the theory goes that anything before "last Thursday" is a lie. It's an arbitrary day of the week. The movie Dark City played off of this, when the — I forget what they were called — did their tuning and rearranged things and swapped peoples' memories around.

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  • [–] 7 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    In reality, simulations would outnumber reality. So that’s the ratio and therefore the chances.

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  • [–] 6 points 1 year ago

    There is no sensible definition of probability that makes that question answerable.

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  • [–] 9 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    A simulation wouldn't be this stupid

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  • [–] 8 points 1 year ago* (2 children)

    I mean is there any proof we don't live in a simulation? Like I am not arguing for simulation, neither am I arguing against it just, personally, I don't see simulation theory as something life changing and important. Odds would probably be 50/50, but don't see how it changes anything. If I live in simulation, I live in a simulation and someone is either controlling me or someone predestined me to do what I do, and it would be their fault for bad things happening. That would actually raise question why didn't they gave us more clear understandings of morals so we don't do bad things to each others, also why did they make us kill, and get sick...

    If simulation is not real, then that doesn't change anything we still have questions about who or what made us, who or what was before our universe even existed.

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  • The only way it matters is that maybe there's a way to escape 'to a higher plane'. But even without a simulation, there's always opportunities to understand the universe better and maybe make some fundamental breakthrough. Or there's mysticism. Of those three, a simulation may offer the least chance for a breakthrough.

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  • [–] 18 points 1 year ago (13 children)

    Belief in a simulation implies intelligent design of some sort, so this is, in my opinion, just a 21st century way of asking the age old question, does God exist?

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  • [–] 10 points 1 year ago (8 children)

    God is a loaded term though. Yes there would be a creator but it could be a completely passive observer.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago (4 children)

    The modern Christian God is mostly a passive observer, whenever him or his agents have visited us there have been tons of miracles and magical shit, but that does not happen very often, and we've been basically alone for millenia while He is busy in his own realm. If Christ visited again, it would likely portend the end of the world, at least in a lot of Christian world views.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago

    Christians are shitty con-artists who spread their filth by lying to, subverting, and intimidating others.

    I'll never get over how they call the Torah the "old testament." They do this as a sneaky way to make it seem like it's all Christianity with no ties to Judaism.

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  • The world already ended, and all that jazz. Happened in 1844. Just look around you. If you brought a "modern homosapien" from 12,000 years ago to the year 1800 or even 1840-1850, they would recognize things from their world. Those things may have had eons of refinement, but a horse is still mostly a horse. Bring a modern human from 1850 to today, and they will recognize almost nothing. Their world is gone. A new one took its place, as was predicted.

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  • [–] 0 points 1 year ago*

    Maybe it implies intelligent design, but I don't think that it implies that we are a part of that intelligent design, necessarily. I mean there's a whole universe out there that's mostly just hot hydrogen and the space in-between with spacetime shaped accordingly. Who's to say that life on earth isn't just noise? Outside the scope of whoever is running the simulation? It would seem like a waste to calculate a whole universe through all of time specifically to study the great apes of earth.

    I'm inclined to believe that if our universe is running on a machine in a higher universe, it's for something bigger than us, and its operator is likely not specifically aware of this galaxy, let alone us humans as individuals. Given the consistency we observe, any intelligent design would only be in the laws of physics and perhaps the initial conditions of the universe, everything else would be calculated based on those from there.

    We need to be careful not to be too human-centric in these discussions, because every human-centric theory of the universe that humanity has come up with so far was eventually proven wrong.

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  • [–] 4 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    If we are I want a word with the dev team. This shit needs a rebalance ASAP. Gravity wells are too OP, black hole mergers should not warp the fabric of spacetime.

    And don't even get me started on Gamma Ray Bursts or Vacuum Decay.

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  • [–] 4 points 1 year ago

    I don't know.

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  • [–] 4 points 1 year ago

    I don't know about ya'll, but from my perspective, the simulation would only have to simulate my world.

    You all might not even exist.

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  • [–] 4 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

    I think this depends on how you look at it.

    In a certain way, we do live in a fictional world that is constructed of information. If you consider your daily routines, they're probably following instructions of some sort to earn money, besides other things.

    Both of these things - the instructions and the money - are made up. You can see this even more clearly with the money. Money itself is a piece of paper or not even that - a number in a database - that has no real value, yet people believe in it and that belief is what gives it value. In other words, the value of these numbers in databases exists in people's head more than it does in reality. Now, you could consider this a simulation, because it happens inside a computer and influences what people think.

    However, i truly doubt that such a view is meaningful. No matter what is written in the databases, you still have to go through your own, individual life. I feel the biggest question you're implicitely asking is whether there could exist some kind of cheat code or glitch, like in video games, to shortcut through the world and reach your goals easier. Again, depending on how you look at it, there both are and are not such cheats.

    You could consider human technology a sort of cheat. Instead of toiling on the agricultural fields ourselves, we use heavy machinery that is powered by fossil fuels, but more importantly mathematics, to do the work for us. Same goes for all other technologies. As such, the mathematics itself becomes the cheat code.

    If a true cheat code would exist in today's world, you can take solace in the fact that not only you are looking for it, but so is everybody else who has an interest in achieving their goals. Now, you see, the whole economy is simply based on the concept that people want to reach their goals, and to do so, they need resources, for which they need money. So, if a cheat code existed, every single company would have a high interest in finding it and exploiting it. Since the number of people engaged with these desires is quite high, you can assume that significant progress towards that goal is continuously made whenever possible. In fact, people research and invent new things and useful tricks all the time to help us with our daily lifes. If you really wanna know more about this, you should start by studying economics, physics, and society at large. Thank you for your attention, if you have any more questions, let me know :D (i studied philosophy, i might help you)

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  • [–] 12 points 1 year ago (9 children)

    Same as the odds that a higher being (a god) exists.

    Can't prove it, can't disprove it. All arguments for it speculative and subjective.

    People claim that it is the most likely option because eventually tech will be so advanced that we could make a world simulation, and then we would make multiples, and therefore the probability of this not being a simulation is low.

    This claim assumes that computers CAN get that complex (no indication that they could) it also assumes that if they could, we would create world simulators (Why? Parts of it sure, but all of it?) And it assumes that sentient beings inside the simulation could never know it (Why?)

    It is as pointless as arguing about god.

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  • Biggest reason to to a complete simulation would be reversed time dilation. Run the simulation until the civilization is a few hundred to a few thousand years more advanced than your own, and see what technologies they have invented and refined.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (6 children)

    This claim assumes that computers CAN get that complex (no indication that they could)

    I mean, if you take an existing physics simulation and just scale up the hardware...

    I would hope that we wouldn't build such a thing just out of ethical concerns for the inhabitants, but then again we've built a giant AI-training network with very little knowledge of if they have some kind of limited consciousness during the process.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (5 children)

    I mean, if you take an existing physics simulation and just scale up the hardware...

    Then what? We have no reason to believe that would cause parts of the simulation to be conscious and think they exist in reality.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (4 children)

    We're physics. It seems like we exist.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (3 children)

    But we have no evidence that we're anywhere close to being able to accurately simulate physics, even with planet sizes computers.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (2 children)

    We can accurately simulate physics, outside of certain extreme environments. My evidence is that we routinely do, although hardware limitations mean if you want perfect accuracy it's going to involve just a few particles, with more and more approximation as you scale beyond that.

    There are no extreme environments on Earth, by that definition, which is a big part of why physics is stuck on them in the first place. All known life is also on Earth, so that shouldn't matter, if life and consciousness is what we're interested in.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (1 child)

    We can accurately simulate physics, outside of certain extreme environments

    This is not true. For example, we don't know why [ice is slippery].(https://doi.org/10.1016/j.coldregions.2014.03.002).

    Furthermore

    There are no extreme environments on Earth...

    Yes, there is. Ice. And superconductors. And so on... And even if all the other stuff is exotic, it's important to know all the other underlying principles to comprehend what's actually going on.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago

    Yeah, that's more than a few particles. If you had a planet-sized computer, you could still simulate a block of ice, although it might still be hard to explain in a bird-eye view kind of way why the simulated ice is slippery. Which is what this paper is actually trying to do.

    Ditto for superconductors. It's true that closer to absolute zero something is, the longer quantum features stay relevant, and that imposes a pretty punishing penalty. It's not infinite, though.

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  • [–] 3 points 1 year ago

    Probably about the same as for whether a god exists.

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  • [–] 3 points 1 year ago

    More likely than us being in the "real" base reality

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  • [–] 3 points 1 year ago

    I want access to the dev console then.

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  • [–] 3 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    Well, until we see people randomly floating or chunks of the world disappearing, the answer will probably remain "who knows"

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  • [–] 4 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    People floating would go against the laws of physics of this simulation.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

    Best way to know if you're in a simulation is to observe when it glitches (in a way that can't be explained by a glitch in the sub-simulation that is human perception).

    You and several complete strangers see someone floating in the air without any technological support, assuming y'all haven't been poisoned in a similar way and are hallucinating, either a) there's some support you don't know how to look for, b) there's a condition of reality that hasn't been accounted for in the study of physics yet, or c) the rule set just straight broke somehow.

    I don't think anyone has totally eliminated glitches in the human or an incomplete understanding of physics to really support a 'we live in a simulation' explanation for strange phenomena, at least not yet.

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  • [–] 3 points 1 year ago

    The scary thing is you just need to simulate a single brain (yours or mine). Everything else is just loaded on the fly. Like in a game. That's hard but probably not impossible. As soon as we are technically able to do something like this, chances are high that we, or I, live in a simulation.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago

    You mean that reality might have been created by intelligent being(s)? wow.. Nobody ever thought about that one before.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago

    I have no idea of the odds. Whatever reality is we could simulate it then conclude that a simulation like that could be running out reality. What could we observe about our reality that would make it simulation proof?

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago

    Less than the odds that we are living in a false vacuum.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago

    If it is possible to stimulate reality to this level of detail, very low. If it's possible that the simulation can then run another instance of the simulation with no loss of fidelity and that is true for any simulation within the stack, still low but much more likely than before. If the chance of this simulation existing is higher than the odds for a universe that can sustain intelligent life, then it becomes about even odds.

    The people who claim otherwise are mathematicians who forgot how reality works, as they get into an infinite spiral of higher and higher odds without any basis in reality.

    The reason why it gets to even-at-best is because the simulation needs to exist in a reality at some point, and it really, really stretches the imagination that someone could build this shit. So, then you're attaching the odds of intelligent life in a universe to the odds of then some intelligent life understanding literally every aspect of reality and being able to build said simulation (and then that repeats on every simulation).

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago

    On the one hand. Why. Oh why. Would anyone make the simulation so crappy. On the other hand if there was a creator god that exists outside the universe then we 100% would be a simulation compared to that gods existence.

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  • [–] 3 points 1 year ago

    I hope so

    Also, can somebody please turn it off? I think we took this one as far as it's worth

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago

    So I guess it depends on what you understand by "simulation". What is really simulated as opossed to being "real". Our reality is just an interpretation given by our senses, so in a sense it's also a simulation of the real thing. Where's the line that makes something really "real"?

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    Either 100% or 0% so pascal's wager 50/50.

    Just like the lottery, I either win or I lose, its a 50/50.

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  • We have a physical representation of a divide by 0 function that exists in the universe. Black holes. I'd say it's fairly likely.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago*

    I saw someone analyse this on YouTube once. As I remember it, if you assume two possibilities are equally likely until we have information favouring one or the other (the principle of indifference), it depends on if we make any simulated universes. If we do, there's basically no way we're in the first. Otherwise, there's a chance this is the base reality.

    One can question whether the principle of indifference applies here, though. Or even if a deeper reality we can never access counts as a an object you can talk about normally. For example, pragmatic epistemology would say no.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago
    [–] 1 point 1 year ago

    99.999999999999999999999999999%

    (Rounded)

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  • [–] -4 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 child)

    100%, and I have - if not proof - strong evidence:

    • Economics. It makes no sense, not even to experts, to such an extent þat þere's a saying: "get 4 economists in a room and you'll get 5 opinions." Þere's no-one who understands it, only people who þink þey do
    • Mantis shrimp. If mantis shrimp aren't an easter egg, I don't know what is.
    • Kittens. Our reactions to kittens has to be a bug, þere's no evolutionary reason why apes universally react to kittens þe way þey do.
    • All of þe rules start to break down when physics got granular enough, such þat we have to invent concepts like þe Heisenberg Principle which - if you really þink about it is just a huge cop-out, like developers reclassifying bugs as "features."

    But, seriously, all of physics. It was all fairly rudimentary, and it all worked, until our measurements got better, and þen it became more complex. And every time we measured more accurately, þe old models stopped being strictly correct and were had to come up wiþ even more complex models, until now we have quantum physics which is eerily like economics in þat ... does anyone really understand quantum physics? We don't even have a unified, unanimous agreement on þe rules of quantum physics, and when we þink we do... Bam! New quark discovered, back to þe drawing board. Oh, þe Highs Boson is super sketchy, too.

    Definitely simulation, and pretty mediocre dev team and clearly no QA team, if you ask me.

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  • [–] 3 points 1 year ago

    Economics isn't supposed to make sense, it's just meant to justify the prevailing system for the time. It is like theology back when we used to live under religious monarchies. It treats itself as "academic," has universities and degrees, very serious "scholarly" debate, entire textbooks written on it, all its adherents will insist that it is a genuine scholarly enterprise and anyone who disagrees just "doesn't understand it," but it is ultimately not a genuine scientific program but merely exists to justify the prevailing order at the time.

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