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[–] 136 points 1 year ago* (2 children)

This is sad. I'm clinging to my GrapheneOS Pixel 7 until it completely breaks. By then I hope there will be decent Linux phone options or I might not get another phone at all.

Google can go fuck itself. The state stock phone from most major manufacturers come in with all that increasingly intrusive spyware that you can't uninstall or turn off should be illegal.

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  • [–] 85 points 1 year ago

    I read something on masto a while back that said something like "tech companies would remove the customer if they could" and I am very quickly adopting that as true in my brain.

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  • [–] 59 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    CalyxOS didnt Pause Updates bEcAusE iTS sOoOo hArD now.

    They did it because they Senior Devs are Retiring and they are switching out the Cryptographic Keys, so their Security wont be compromised.

    Source: https://calyxos.org/news/2025/08/01/a-letter-to-our-community/

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  • [–] 14 points 1 year ago*

    [CalyxOS] won’t receive any updates for the foreseeable future.

    And yet, from Calyx's own article that AA linked:

    [W]e have determined that it may take up to four to six months for us to provide the level of security maintenance we aim to deliver.

    AA is just fucking trash clickbait bullshit at this point.

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  • [–] 157 points 1 year ago (37 children)

    Holy shit, the bootlicking and mental gymnastics in the article's comments:

    • Phones are good now! You don't need custom ROMs!
    • If you got nothing to hide you will use a stock phone!
    • No average person loads custom ROMs, it's a nerd thing!
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  • [–] 97 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (25 children)

    Talking about rooting and custom ROMs is so frustrating because most of the replies are always like this.

    "baCk iN mY dAy I UseD to RoOt mY gALaXy s2 bUt pHoNeS aRE sO GoOd tOdAy iTs pOinTlEsS nOw"
    Motherfucker, we're starting to not even be able to have full access to our own filesystem and Android gets more restrictive each year for alleged security reasons and you want to tell me this shit is not necessary anymore???

    Lemmy is potentially the first place where people actually fucking get it.

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  • [–] 14 points 1 year ago* (4 children)

    “baCk iN mY dAy I UseD to RoOt mY gALaXy s2 bUt pHoNeS aRE sO GoOd tOdAy iTs pOinTlEsS nOw”

    Fucking lmao, I remember people saying that a decade ago when I had my Nexus 6P.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (3 children)

    The 6P was such a great phone, and perhaps the following Nexus 7 was the peak of Google phones. Those were the days.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago* (2 children)

    Nexus 6P was the very last Nexus device. The OG Pixel came out the following year, in 2016. I happen to have both devices, they are currently sitting on my desk, both loaded with Lineage OS. My 6P somehow managed to retain functionality of it's entire SD810. Still gets toasty and throttles down though, and has been through a couple batteries now.

    The Nexus 7 was a tablet from 2012. Damn fine tablet.

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  • [–] 5 points 1 year ago

    I mean its kinda true. The biggest draw to custom roms back in the day was adding features that either weren't available at all or only on limited devices.

    Even before google started locking shit down tight custom roms were dying because they had less and less to differentiate themselves from both each other and official android.

    Now of course we've basically come full circle. We are losing wanted/needed features for "security" but shits so locked down custom roms can't provide us with those features. :(

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  • [–] 3 points 1 year ago (17 children)

    Just try asking about rooting in the GraoheneOS Discord, and you risk getting banned.

    GrapheneOS has a ton of locked down stuff they don't want you to access. They make rooting extra hard, they don't support compiling the OS from source, there's still the TEE you can't access even with root, and the OS filesystem is readonly to inhibit customization.

    GrapheneOS promotes "verified boot" that stops you from doing many important things.

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  • [–] 11 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (4 children)

    they don’t support compiling the OS from source

    They literally have a whole instruction page for it on their official website: https://grapheneos.org/build

    What they don't support is making modifications to GrapheneOS, compiling it, and then still calling it GrapheneOS. It's not. You changed it, so it's something else. It's your own fork of GrapheneOS, so you should name it accordingly.

    there’s still the TEE you can’t access even with root

    Uh that's by design? Do you even understand the purpose of a secure element and trusted execution environment, and how they work?

    and the OS filesystem is readonly to inhibit customization

    It's read-only for security reasons. This is the default AOSP behavior. iOS/iPadOS and macOS handle this very similarly. This is the industry standard for secure devices. If you want to make modifications, the code is open source, you can freely modify the OS, compile it, sign it with your own keys and use it with full verified boot enabled.

    GrapheneOS promotes “verified boot” that stops you from doing many important things.

    Verified boot is a built in feature of AOSP. https://source.android.com/docs/security/features/verifiedboot

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (3 children)

    They literally have a whole instruction page for it on their official website: https://grapheneos.org/build

    I've asked, and they don't support you at all after you build it. You can't get updates or packages from GrapheneOS. Compare to Debian, Ubuntu, RHEL, etc., where you can compile your own newer package, install it, even replace core operating system components, and then seamlessly upgrade to the OS vendor's version when they catch up.

    What they don’t support is making modifications to GrapheneOS, compiling it, and then still calling it GrapheneOS. It’s not. You changed it, so it’s something else. It’s your own fork of GrapheneOS, so you should name it accordingly.

    Even if you don't modify it, they tell you not to call it GrapheneOS, and don't offer any way to install patches, besides building it again.

    Uh that’s by design? Do you even understand the purpose of a secure element and trusted execution environment, and how they work?

    Yes, I understand it. I've opposed TPM from the start, and this is just TPM for Android. I don't want a device that keeps secrets from me. I do want comprehensive backups, including all cryptographic keys. I should be able to access the TEE from my authenticated PC over SSH.

    I'm fully aware that Widevine won't run on a device where the owner has control over the whole device.

    The code is open source, you can freely modify the OS, compile it, sign it with your own keys...

    I don't have the resources to do this (PC nor effort). They recommend 100GB+ storage and 32GB RAM for building it, and you seemingly can't do it incrementally, since you have to flash an entire operating system at a time. I want to modify one file, like the call recording xml file. (That file is from a previous operating system I had, but I can't provide an example of niche cases like that for GrapheneOS, because I only ever used GrapheneOS for a few days, so I don't know what kind of small modifications I would want to make.)

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  • [–] 8 points 1 year ago* (2 children)

    Compare to Debian, Ubuntu, RHEL, etc., where you can compile your own newer package, install it

    None of these operating systems have Verified Boot. Desktop systems are inherently less secure than mobile devices.

    even replace core operating system components

    Don't you see the problem there?

    and then seamlessly upgrade to the OS vendor’s version when they catch up.

    That's not true either. Swapping out random parts of the OS will certainly lead to breakage and dependency hell in your package manager (unless you just replace files without using the package manager, which might make all of this even worse).

    and don’t offer any way to install patches, besides building it again

    Normal Android behavior. This will be the case for ANY Android-based OS with Verified Boot enabled.

    and this is just TPM for Android

    This isn't comparable to TPM at all. TPM is a very insecure way of providing a hardware keystore. It can easily be bypassed. Here's a demonstration of that https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wTl4vEednkQ

    I’ve opposed TPM from the start

    TPM in desktop machines neither really provides a benefit, nor does it inconvenience the user. I've also opposed to it from a security perspective, since it's misleading and makes users think that it's actually secure and comparable to proper secure elements (such as the Titan M2, Apple Secure Enclave Processor, or the Qualcom SPU), while it really isn't.

    I don’t want a device that keeps secrets from me.

    It's not keeping secrets from you, the secure keystore is keeping cryptographic secrets away from attackers. Only you can use the cryptographic secrets from the secure element, by combining them with your PIN/passphrase (in a key derivation function) to derive the keys used for full disk encryption. Without a secure element that safely guards these secrets and throttles unlock attempts, attackers like law enforcement agencies can easily brute force your 6 digit PIN and gain full access to your device, including all of your data. The iPhone 11 was the last iPhone generation without a proper secure element. A 6 digit passcode was also bypassed on the iPhone 11 Pro Max, just a few months after its release. https://appleinsider.com/articles/20/01/15/fbi-reportedly-accessed-locked-iphone-11-pro-max-with-graykey-third-party-tool

    This hasn't been possible anymore since the iPhone 12, which was released with the Secure Enclave Processor. This is even confirmed by leaked internal documents from forensics companies, such as Cellebrite: https://discuss.grapheneos.org/d/14344-cellebrite-premium-july-2024-documentation

    Specifically, I recommend looking at this chart:

    It clearly shows that data cannot be extracted from iPhones with secure elements, unless the device is in the AFU state, meaning that the encryption keys are kept in memory.

    I do want comprehensive backups, including all cryptographic keys.

    Having a secure element to isolate keys there doesn't make sense if you can just export them. The security of those keys cannot be guaranteed anymore, once they're outside of the secure hardware keystore. This is not unique to Android/mobile devices. Look at U2F hardware security tokens, such as the YubiKey or NitroKey. You can't export your keys there either, which is by design, and it's a good thing.

    I’m fully aware that Widevine won’t run on a device where the owner has control over the whole device.

    This has nothing to do with Widevine. The vast majority of Android devices currently on the market doesn't have a secure element. Widevine still works on these devices.

    and you seemingly can’t do it incrementally

    What do you mean? Generating an incremental update .zip package and flashing it over your stock GrapheneOS installation? No, that's certainly not gonna work, due to Verified Boot verifying that the signature of the update package matches the signature of the OS that's installed. This is a very important security feature, and prevents attackers (could just be cybercriminals, but that can also include law enforcement, intelligence agencies, etc.) from hacking into update servers and delivering mallicious updates to users. If I remember correctly, that's how EncroChat got bugged by the French police. They hacked into the update servers that were hosted by OVH, and then distributed mallicious update packages, gaining access to the devices of all EncroChat users.

    since you have to flash an entire operating system at a time

    That is correct. Changing the signing keys requires you to unlock the bootloader, wipe the Verified boot keys, and replace them with a new set of trusted custom (i.e. non-stock) keys. Otherwise someone could just flash a mallicious OS over your current OS, while retaining all of your data. They could then use it to extract your data.

    Of course you can easily make changes and install new versions incrementally, once you have installed your custom OS and signing keys to the device. Also, none of this is some crazy GrapheneOS invention, it's the default Android Verified Boot behavior, which GrapheneOS builds upon.

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  • [–] 0 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    Swapping out random parts of the OS will certainly lead to breakage and dependency hell in your package manager (unless you just replace files without using the package manager, which might make all of this even worse).

    I've done it, and it works. I've built packages of libraries and binaries before, at higher version numbers than Debian had, and deployed them to multiple Debian sid systems. They worked. When Debian caught up, I seamlessly upgraded all 3 systems with no problems.

    Even in the worst case scenario of dependency hell, you would be able to downgrade to the Debian supported version. But I never had to do anything like that.

    I'm not going to respond to all the rest of your post, because I don't think it will help with anything. It seems that we have very different ideas about device ownership.

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  • [–] 0 points 1 year ago

    you would be able to downgrade to the Debian supported version

    That's pretty specific to fixed release distros, and it's not gonna work on e.g. Arch Linux.

    I’m not going to respond to all the rest of your post, because I don’t think it will help with anything. It seems that we have very different ideas about device ownership.

    You don't have to respond to it, I'd be happy enough if you would just acknowledge it. I too like the fact that one can tinker with Linux systems. I've always told people who want to study OS architecture to daily drive either Linux or one of the BSDs. They're really fantastic operating systems for learning how computers and operating systems work. I too have built libraries and system utilities from scratch. I still wouldn't recommend it on production systems. I built Linux from Scratch many times, and I think it's pretty fun and informative (if you pay attention, instead of just copy-pasting the commands from the instructions).
    Yet the fact remains that desktop operating systems are inherently less secure than mobile systems, which were designed with a strong focus on security from the ground up. SELinux is a pretty good example. How many desktop Linux distributions do you know, that deploy SELinux (or a comparable LSM) in enforcing mode, and with meaningful policies? Yeah, some of the mainstream distros, such as Ubuntu, Fedora and SUSE do it (sometimes with pretty weak policies), but looking at the vast majority of distros? I'd say almost none. Android on the other hand has used SELinux by default for a long time, with actual meaningful, secure policies. Btw if you're looking for a more secure Linux OS, check out secureblue. It's based on Fedora Atomic, and applies lots of hardening on top. Not affiliated or anything, I just think it's a nice and secure distro.

    All in all, I think Production devices should be secure. You can always have a second device or that you can use to study the inner workings of an OS, or make changes to it (or in this case run GrapheneOS in the Android emulator).

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  • [–] 5 points 1 year ago (3 children)

    GrapheneOS promotes "verified boot" that stops you from doing many important things.

    What is your strongest example of an important thing that can't be done on GrapheneOS because of its boot/loader security?

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  • [–] 4 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    Comprehensive backups, which can only be done after rooting. You can do this, but only after disabling verified boot.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    In theory Seedvault covers this. In practice...well I dunno, ask me again when I get my next phone. I've not had the opportunity to properly test it.

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  • [–] 4 points 1 year ago

    Some apps resist being backed up. "android:allowBackup=false" was one way. Apparently that can be overridden, but there are other ways apps can resist backup that can't be overridden. It's not clear what those are, but some of my apps definitely aren't being backed up by Seedvault, even though they aren't using keystore.

    The apps using keystore can only ever be backed up by installing a backdoor in the TEE.

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  • [–] 11 points 1 year ago (3 children)

    Well yeah, because grapheneos is specifically made for security, not customiseability. Rooting your phone makes it a lot less secure, so it doesn't seem strange to me that grapheneos doesn't want you to.

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  • [–] 3 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    Can you please explain how rooting adb only, not any apps, makes it less secure? Use concrete examples, not abstract.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago* (3 children)

    I can understand them not wanting you to root since their focus is security above everything else, but that bit about not supporting compiling from source is a bit sketchy 🤨

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (2 children)

    Totally, since being able to compile from source is very much a security issue.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago

    They do provide instructions for compiling from source, they just don't support you at all afterwards. If you compile GrapheneOS and put it on your phone, they say "you are not running GrapheneOS" at that point. Unlike Debian or Ubuntu, where every package can be replaced by a hand-compiled version, and it's still Debian or Ubuntu.

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  • [–] 43 points 1 year ago

    We should start a co-op that buys advertising data on people that say stuff like this and then bombards them with spam that says "You have nothing to hide, [name]! You want everyone to know you love [advertising data entry tied to them]"

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  • [–] 46 points 1 year ago (7 children)

    No average person

    I hate this line of reasoning in all facets of life. And it does seem to appear in all facets of life.

    Nobody is average in every way. If we accept that it's okay for every goddam thing to suit only the "average", and to hell with everyone else, then nobody will happy in more than ~3-5 aspects of their life.

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  • [–] 15 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    Yea. Why are there so many sizes of clothes anyway? The average person doesn't need pants with a 44 inch waist. And so many food options? The average person doesn't need anything more than nutrient rich gruel.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago

    I assume that, for humans, the average number of legs must be a number below two since most people I know of have two, while some have one or none and only very few have three or more.

    I wonder how those 1.something-legged pants would look on all the people with different amounts of legs than that average number. Luckily, it seems it's currently more common for clothing designers to snap to the normal (as in common number) rather than design for the average number. I guess people with less than two, or with prosthetics, can use two-legged pants to some degree, but with more legs than average, it seems, you'll still be in trouble at the mall – unless there's a skilled tailor in there too!

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  • [–] 3 points 1 year ago (3 children)

    It’s not simply the average person it’s most people that don’t need this. For most people a custom rom adds nothing, most people barely change their wallpaper.

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  • [–] 3 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    Well then let's flip that right around then: if "most people" never do it, why the fuck should they spend the energy to ban it?

    The difference between "average person" and "most people" is beside the point. It doesn't really matter if we're talking about 1 standard deviation from median or 3. Edge cases matter. Outliers matter. Choice matters. People matter.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (1 child)

    Isn’t this more of a way to reduce the energy to support it instead of the opposite? I’m not in favor of removing it, but I understand the reason.

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  • I think it's the opposite. It takes work to implement restrictions. And they they're presumably going to need ongoing work to patch workarounds. The restrictions would be on top of the standard functionality. They can't remove or simplify anything by restricting app installations.

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  • [–] 26 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    Got to grassroots a more open platform over some decades like desktop Linux. Once a RISC-V phone comes out running some relatively normal Linux distro is out, I'll buy it as a tinker with phone. At least it'll be a portable battery powered device to run full desktop Linux when docked

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago

    Once a RISC-V phone comes out running some relatively normal Linux distro is out, I'll buy it as a tinker with phone. At least it'll be a portable battery powered device to run full desktop Linux when docked the boot sequence in five minutes.

    But seriously, right now RISC-V's performance sucks, to the point of daily driving Linux is a suffering.

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  • [–] 52 points 1 year ago (44 children)

    2026, year of the Linux phone

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  • [+] -16 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (42 children)

    Linux sucks on ones especially from a security and usability perspective

    Edit: For those down voting, what OS do you use on your phone? Everything I've tried has left a lot to be desired.

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  • [–] 15 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    I think one the biggest sells, especially for these custom rom's is privacy to be honest. I don't really trust Google or Apple with the data they probably collect. During COVID parents were being reported to law enforcement for CSAM when sending pictures of there kids medical issues to doctors(Archive Link).

    One I guess could argue that sure shit happens when it comes to that scenario, but with the political climate in America combined with the fact that some of the largest tech companies seem to be kowtowing to whatever the current administration is doing, probably makes a lot of people rethink privacy and to find alternatives.

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  • [–] 5 points 1 year ago

    Degoogled android has way more potential from what I can tell. Android has a solid ecosystem of apps while protecting security and privacy. Google is the core problem. Why throw away years of work on AOSP and F-droid.

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  • [–] 8 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    Usability makes sense. Security is a real head scratcher here.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago*

    Android has very strong security sandboxing and tight permission control. It also tracks the integrity of the system so it is very hard to tamper with the boot process. Everything is encrypted and the entire system is very hard to break into even with physical access.

    Android is really impressive if you dig into the bolts. While I would love to see something on Linux do something similar I haven't seen any OS come close.

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  • [–] 15 points 1 year ago (33 children)

    Would you care to elaborate with specific examples?

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  • [+] 14 points 1 year ago* (last edited 2 days ago) (18 children)
  • [–] 12 points 1 year ago* (1 child)

    Yeah, I though of those two & it's just a thing that would get/will get developed if we get to daily drive Linux phones, imho.

    Its not like it didn't take Android years to get those two aspects covered.

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  • [+] 5 points 1 year ago* (last edited 2 days ago) (1 child)
  • [–] 3 points 1 year ago*

    Didn't know/remember about KitKat verified boot, but the sandboxing thing was prob just to kernel & perhaps some system files, def not user or hardware such as cameras. Including between apps & phone contacts, etc.

    And I totally agree about lack of Linux phones (as hardware), the phone market with its size & megacorp subsidies to preinstall spybloatware is a giant hurdle.

    And the real reason for closed sauce drivers (as a practice, not as if they should open-sauce old hardware now - that's a security risk for unsuspecting folk & iot ... but we could def transition the practice).

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  • [–] 5 points 1 year ago (13 children)

    There's no "mobile Linux". Linux supports Secure Boot just fine, and if a distro wants to sandbox applications that too is done by just configuring Linux to do so (after all, that's what Android does).

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  • [+] 4 points 1 year ago* (last edited 2 days ago) (7 children)
  • [–] 5 points 1 year ago (6 children)

    Why? That has nothing to do with the topic we're discussing. You can configure Linux as Android does it, or choose not to.

    (Secure Boot is what enables "Verified boot" - which is just Android's name for a common sense secure boot loader implementation which is the norm in well protected IoT systems etc)

    /ex Sony Mobile dev, nowadays IoT hw/fw ethical hacker

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  • [–] 5 points 1 year ago (3 children)

    Android boots in layers that are encrypted with different keys. The first key in the TPM enlocks the base OS up to the lock screen. From there a pin is entered and the rest of the system is decrypted.

    If a compromise happened in the OS the phone would just fail to boot since the integrity of the system is validated by the TPM.

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  • [–] -1 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    Yes, that's how a normal bootchain works in every system ever - like the IoT device running Linux I'm right now working with.

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  • [+] 5 points 1 year ago* (last edited 2 days ago) (2 children)
  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago

    Linux does not suck on phones regarding security. Linux is what brings the security mechanisms faulty ascribed to as being "Android's". See previous posters claiming it was all "extensive modifications" by Android and not just Linux security mechanisms.

    Feel free to get a Fairphone 4, sign your Ubuntu Touch image with keys supported by the chipset and off you go. The fact that no one is selling you that has no relevance whatsoever to whether "Linux" supports it.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago (5 children)

    Linux doesn't have the same permission controls. SElinux profiles would need to be manually configured for each app which would take a lot of time.

    Mobile linux also doesn't support measured boot which is what is used to protect the system in the case of theft. Before I consider mobile Linux it would be nice if there was a detailed security review of the entire system.

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  • [–] -1 points 1 year ago (4 children)

    I think this will sort itself out quicker if you show me what "mobile linux" is.

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  • [–] 3 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    Ubuntu Touch, Postmarket OS and others

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago*

    The mobile linux tends to leave root access enabled plus it doesn't sandbox apps in the same way as Android. If you visit a web page that manages to exploit your web browser all bets are off since lateral movement is trivial inside the OS.

    Android on the other hand has strong sandboxing and permission control which means that a compromise in one place shouldn't be able to jump to other places. Android also restricts filesystem access so even if an app is compromised it is difficult to maintain persistence.

    Phones has lots of sensors and are great for tracking people. I would rather that my phones OS be extremely secure so that I'm not the victim of spyware.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago

    One thing Google seems to be able to do right is security. Android has a strong security architecture that is highly robust. You can straight up download malware or lose your phone and everything stays safe.

    I'm not saying it would be impossible to create a OS that is as secure as Android. However, it would take some very serious work and would likely mean building something from scratch with APIs for permission requests.

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  • [+] -10 points 1 year ago (13 children)

    Do you have examples where that isn't the case?

    Linux phones tend to just be the desktop versions of desktops adapted for a smaller screen.

    Android has well built ecosystem with strong privacy and security features not really found anywhere else. The entire system focuses on least privilege with strong security isolation so even if you do download something bad it will have a hard time doing real damage.

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  • [–] 10 points 1 year ago (4 children)

    Errrrmmmm I think this is just an issue either with your choice of distro or your approach to security.

    The Linux ecosystem has by far some of the greatest security technologies available for modern operating systems. Android is a Linux distribution after all.

    Most of the issues with Linux on a phone so far is more the hardware and architecture to support and integrate the hardware.

    Major mobile device manufacturers have secure enclaves, cryptographic co-processors, advanced face/depth cameras, fingerprint readers, etc. The system architecture needs to be tailored to the hardware and security architecture for the threat models mobile devices face that you want to mitigate.

    iOS is Unix deep under the hood, Android is Linux deep under the hood. The issues here aren’t with the kernels, they’re with userspace, hardware selection, and perhaps the odd supporting driver, service, or interface.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago (3 children)

    Current Linux doesn't come close to Android. I wish it did but you still need root access and permission controls leave something to be desired. I think that is mostly fine for desktop but on mobile the stakes are much higher since spyware could have much more access.

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  • [–] 0 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    I’m not trying to be rude but none of these points are true. I imagine you’re confusing a single Linux distribution and their architecture with being representative of Linux as a whole. You can indeed spin an unprivileged, immutable distribution with SELinux for MAC, hardened kernel, and so much more, which would blow Android et al out of the water.

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  • [–] 3 points 1 year ago* (1 child)

    Source?

    I'm basing this all on the Android documentation along with my experience on desktop Linux. I would love if there was a Linux system that was as solid as Android but I haven't seen anything as of yet.

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  • [–] -1 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

    Build it. Gentoo, Arch, and any other minimalist distro where there’s less userspace fluff out of the box can easily be configured to be incredibly hardened.

    Your looking for a desktop distribution that doesn’t really exist out of the box (perhaps Qubes). Android is a mobile OS for a reason and has a different architecture in userspace to accommodate for is threat model and use cases.

    Just because desktop distros don’t typically lock down userspace out of the box doesn’t mean it’s not possible.

    Edit: Here’s some examples:
    Plague Kernel
    Hardened Arch Linux
    SELinux for MAC
    Kernel lockdown
    Immutable distro BlendOS
    Bubblewrap sandboxing
    Firejail sandbox leveraging hardened malloc
    Hardened Alpine Linux

    I don’t think there’s a distro that goes as hard as mobile except maybe some based on flatpaks rather than package repos of libs and bins. But you can piece your own together based on your requirements and personal threat model.

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  • [–] 3 points 1 year ago (7 children)

    Android is Linux, and uses regular Linux security mechanisms.

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  • [–] 6 points 1 year ago (5 children)

    That's not the case. Android is extensively modified in order to have sandboxed applications only and restrictive hardware permissions.

    Run any executable on Linux. Likely by default it can access ~/Photos and the webcam. Android doesn't allow that

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  • [–] 5 points 1 year ago* (1 child)

    Flatpak?
    And some level of immutability?

    It doesn't seem like much of a step for Linux distros to cover the "gap" if/when we get any sort of viable mobile options for eg 1% of the market.

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  • [–] 3 points 1 year ago

    Flatpak has promise but the sandbox much weaker than Android. I wouldn't run anything untrusted with it as sandbox escapes are likely possible. Bubblewrap is highly portable at the cost of being less secure. Kernel level sandboxing such as SElinux and Namespaces are much more bulletproof since they leverage the kernel.

    Honestly if you are building something from the ground up I would instead focus on virtualization since the Linux kernel isn't exactly free of security issues.

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  • [–] 5 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    "uses regular Linux security mechanisms" is true regardless of whether any distributions you use configure them the same way or not.

    The Android platform takes advantage of the Linux user-based protection to identify and isolate app resources.

    As part of the Android security model, Android uses Security-Enhanced Linux (SELinux) to enforce mandatory access control (MAC) over all processes, even processes running with root or superuser privileges (Linux capabilities).

    https://source.android.com/docs/security/features

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    One thing that is neglected with android vs Linux is the application style. Mainstream Linux distros direct compile from source, this means users can read the source code and report any malicious code which has happened, with incredible speed. We don't have that with androids APK files, therefore android needs a much more robust security system. There are other reasons too, like google opening its flood gates to banking apps, if Linux is ever even semi successful (I doubt it will out compete apples or google) in mobile os, banking and high security commercial services will be relegated to the browser.

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  • [–] 5 points 1 year ago

    This is a frankly a bad take. Just because something is foss doesn't mean that it can't poss a risk. Software tends to have security vulnerabilities and supply chain attacks. From a security perspective you want to follow best practices such as least privilege and defense in depth. Blinding trusting software is not a good idea regardless of the source.

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  • [+] 67 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 child)
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