It's enough to drive a man to anarchy
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Meanwhile the Anarchists are like...

Well, easier to overthrow one than the other.
Anarchism? Wasn't that made illegal in the US after the Haymarket bombing?
I wish I could create an alternate reality where anarchy reigns and transport all these "anarchists" to it and watch them drown the entire reality in their tears as they suffer and die.
Without the Government and Capitalism, everything would collapse and it would just be like Mad Max!
If Bosses and Cops are the only thing stopping anyone from going all Mad Max, then we would already be in that Anarchist Dystopia you're imagining because the Mad Max Style Hooligans you imagine wouldn't care about what the Law or some Rich Guy says.
If the only thing stopping you from going all Mad Max are cops and bosses, then I think you should examine why and maybe, perhaps, seek help, because the average person doesn't go about going "I wanna kill people but the only thing stopping me is the Cops."
For anarchism to work, there has to be similar enough values and cultures among different communities to trust each other. But the world is too diverse at the moment for that to happen. I mean, anarchism is possible like the Fremens in Dune, but it would take a long time for a planetary wide cultural convergence to allow anarchism to thrive.
One could argue that most of the people who want to go all Mad Max do in fact break the law to do so, and are now in jail. Or do you think that disturbed people who want to do harm to the general populace don't exist?
I think it's a bit straw-man-y to say that people who argue that "without law there would be chaos" are saying they want chaos. In fact, it's the opposite. There is clearly some minority slice of humanity that just wants to cause others harm, and we need some sort of structure/order to keep those people from causing harm. I find that most people advocating for anarchy don't really have a good answer to how we handle antisocial behavior.
There is clearly some minority slice of humanity that just wants to cause others harm, and we need some sort of structure/order to keep those people from causing harm.
I work in a position that enables me to actually confirm this to be true. There are A LOT of criminals out there. And if society started collapsing a lot of previously good people would turn into criminals out of desperation or opportunity. I honestly don't think the average person understands how many people there are out there that have no problem with the idea of taking advantage of others and even just the threat of law enforcement is what stops them.
I find that most people advocating for anarchy don’t really have a good answer to how we handle antisocial behavior.
No, they certainly do not. Every time I've gotten into an argument with an anarchist their ideology falls to pieces as soon as I start asking the difficult questions.
I mean it wouldn't devolve into mad max (at least not for long) because people would naturally organize into some sort of structure (like a government). This happens every time IRL.
Not sure what you're going on about. You seem to have quoted something I didn't say.
I'm not sure if you thought I meant I actually want to kill anarchists using magic. Clearly I was being sarcastic and just want them to learn from suffering under the form of existence they appear to want so badly.
And to be crystal clear, while I do have many qualms with law enforcement, I promise you that if law enforcement ceased to exist tomorrow our society would very quickly begin to collapse. Because there are A LOT of criminals out there and way, way more normal people that would become criminals out of desperation or opportunity if society began collapsing. To disagree with that is an admission of not being remotely aware of how many criminals actually exist or any familiarity with the human condition.
No sane anarchist is advocating for the collapse of society, or for law enforcement to disappear overnight. Anarchists generally advocate for new anarchic systems to be built alongside our current system, so that if/when our current system begins to collapse, the new ones will already be in place to replace it. This idea is called "dual power", or more generally, "prefigurative politics". It is obviously not an easy thing to do, but I think it's worth trying; we should always be trying to build a better world.
...there are A LOT of criminals out there...
This is absolutely the case, though I see this as an indictment on our current system more than anything. The anarchist position is that most crime is a result of people's basic needs (food, shelter, physical or mental healthcare, etc.) not being met, rather than a result of that person being innately "bad". You seem to at least partly agree with this position:
...way more normal people that would become criminals out of desperation or opportunity if society began collapsing.
Anarchists aim to have everyone's basic needs met, regardless of how much or how little they contribute back to society. This of course won't entirely eliminate antisocial behavior, so we will also need some form of anarchic community defence to intervene in such cases.
This is a society that is built around a system of forced for-profit market dependency that puts ownership enclosures over the land, commons, and productive forces into the hands of a small percentage of private capital owners then relies upon the forced dispossession of people from direct access to the means of subsistence (land, tools, resources) in order to create a class of individuals with no alternative but to sell their labor for a wage on the market so they can purchase the means of survival.
And that in order to enforce that requires a powerful state capable of using violence when necessary to uphold that.
So yeah, remove the enforcers and that system is likely to break down and a lot of people are going to try and loot and take what they need that they currently don't have for survival in the short term.
It would also likely trigger our innate communal cooperative nature that has been key to our survival and evolution as a species.
I'm not personally an anarchist but I think you might be guilty of many of the things you accuse others of here.
From my first comment I have simply stated that anarchism is not the answer.
You don't appear to necessarily be arguing against that. You do state that you think we can all come together and sing kumbaya if things fall apart. I'll agree I think that could happen on an extremely small scale in very small communities, but not on a city/state/national level.
My vision for anarchy basically functions like an average friend group, there is no "leader" of the group, anyone can organize an event, whether its a hangout, a dinner, or asking for help with a project. Nobody is forced to go to any given event. If a conflict comes up, then we talk about it like adults, and come to a beneficial resolution. Each person chips in in their own ways. Honestly its pretty fucking awesome and I think the world would be a lot better place if we had this mentality.
What happens when someone selfishly refuses to contribute to the common good? Or worse, actively attempts to disrupt it?
I'm not even an anarchist but this is pretty easy to simply look at history and answer
It would be like most tribal societies throughout human history. Where small to even very large societal level groups rely upon a economic and social system of mutualism/reciprocity, central planning, and social standing.
People that are able and refuse to contribute would receive little beyond their basic needs, likely socially pilloried, or in extreme cases be asked to leave. And violence against innocents would be punished like in any society.
Like the one thing almost every single human society we have had evidence for it's social structure has had a version of the Golden Rule.
And violence against innocents would be punished like in any society.
I think this is the part I get hung up on. The way this has historically been handled is lynchings. The town thinks you murdered those kids? They lynch you. The town drunk says he saw you doing devil worship? Lynched. You piss off someone with more social capital than you? Another lynching.
While I agree that this is self-ordering in some sense, I don't find it to be morally acceptable. Justice requires systematics that anarchy simply can't provide. And while no justice system is perfect, I think we can all agree that going back to lynchings is probably not the right direction.
I don't think lynchings have been the only way human groups have dealt with crimes against innocents though, historically or presently.
And most of what you are talking about is behavior under capitalist or feudalist systems.
And most crime under those systems is born out of poverty.
I have not heard of the Zapatista's engaging in routine lynchings for example. The biggest threats to them have not been irrational lynch parties inside their society, it had been the capitalist forces outside of it trying to violently conquer them.
And again, I am not an anarchist, so I feel weird trying to speak too deeply past my own understanding of their positions or things I have some crossover beliefs in as well.
It's worth noting that the Zapatistas aren't an anarchist group and make no claim to being one. They do have a non-centralized leadership structure of elders who enforce a "restorative justice" system that forces people who perpetrate crimes to do community service. This does require a form of tribunal that local leaders manage.
But, to be clear, all this requires hierarchy, authority, and coercion in ways that most anarchists would reject. Which is the core of the issue.
mutualism
central planning
Hmmm. I wonder how you achieve those things in an incredibly diverse scenario with millions/billions of people with varying desires. It's almost like you'd have to create some form of government that relied on citizens voting, potentially through elected representatives. Almost like a democracy of some sort. So, not anarchism.
I don't think many anarchists are arguing for societies comprised of a billion people...Almost like they are explicitly wanting to go in the opposite direction and eliminate such a state.
And just again for clarity, I am not an anarchist, but I also think it's silly to get this worked up over an ideology it's not even clear people have ever spent any time trying to understand in good faith.
Then their ideology completely falls apart. Lol.
They are cast away from the community. There's no common ground. It's impossible to mee their needs when their needs is going against everyone else's needs.
They're free to go elsewhere. Maybe they'll like Japan.
And if they refuse to leave? If they simply take your things by violence? What then?
Historically, the answer is to have them lynched, which does solve the problem, but I think most reasonable people would agree that isn't something we want to bring back.
They the community moves on without them.
Historically Anarchists have not done that because anarchists have not had a societal opportunity to do their own thing away from other socioeconomial models, you're thinking of tribal or even conservative communities.
I like how you had to invent a scenario to force your point across. You can do better, but it was a nice try. 6/10
You say "invent a scenario" as if people don't use violence to get what they want all the time.
You can't "move on without them" if they refuse to leave and continue recidivate. How do you deal with such a person in your ideal, anarchist society? It seems like your solution is to just pretend it wouldn't be a problem, which is absurd on its face. You're basically saying no one would decide to steal your food because everyone would just make their own instead. History shows that being incredibly unlikely.
How do you distinguish between tribal organization and anarchist society. Both are small communities that are "self governing." What is the key difference in your mind?
Historically Anarchists have not done that because anarchists have not had a societal opportunity to do their own thing
Thank the gods. You just made it sound significantly more awful than I had already imagined.
While your version of anarchy works on a micro level amongst friends, unfortunately, it would not work on a macro national level. Or even state level. Or even city level.
You're also basically describing voting. People come together and express their opinion and the opinion with the most support wins.
So, not anarchism.
Anarchists are allowed to vote. What are you talking about?
They can vote to poll consensus but there is no mechanism to enforce a policy based on a vote; following the vote is voluntary. Not making a point here per se, just clarifying what we mean by "vote". (Unless the above is wrong?)
All of anarchism is technically voluntary. The community would come up with a way to emforce it.
Wouldn't having a decision enforced on you make following it not a voluntary choice?
If the community can enforce involuntary decisions on someone as the result of a vote, isn't that democracy, not anarchy?
I mean I don't want to watch people suffer and die, but yeah it wouldn't go well. I wish we could simulate or otherwise test theories like this and get probable answers without, you know, condemning hundreds to die for their flawed views.
I don't actually want them to die. That was obvious sarcasm as creating an alternate reality isn't....real. But it's not like I was saying we should send them to a concentration camp. I just want them to live under the conditions they desire so they can experience it utterly fail, because of course it would, and then come crawling back to contribute to society in a meaningful way.
Interesting how your first thought is murder, isn't it?
We know exactly what anarchy looks like in human history, it's how every human society worked before agriculture started consolidating power in the hands of sociopaths.
It's how some steppe tribes lived. It's how most North Americans lived before Columbus.
Anarchism is the natural state of humanity because it's just decentralized tribes at the end of the day. The only difference now would be that you know what antibiotics and crop rotations are.
I think you have a VERY warped view of native american history. These people had entire cities, there was definitely tribal hierarchy and I'm gonna be real (although I blame the education system, not you) but the perception that they were just wandering around in structureless harmony is wrong and kinda racist.
Interesting how your first thought is murder, isn’t it?
Lol. My scenario included literal magic. Literal magic to create an alternate reality. I know people be dumb and that's why you have to use /s when you're being sarcastic on the internet, but I thought people would grasp that a literal magical scenario was sarcastic. Guess I gave you too much credit. To be clear, I want them to suffer under the conditions they want for everyone else so they can hopefully learn and be less ignorant going forward.
it’s how every human society worked before agriculture
So when people used to raid other settlements and rape, murder, and enslave the occupants and take their resources for their own and you'd be lucky to live to 40 and it was probably a pretty painful 40 years. Great example you've got there. Sounds like a sweet reality to live in. Pre-agriculture human life was short and largely comprised of suffering.
it’s just decentralized tribes at the end of the day.
Yes, modern civilization with 8+ billion people is just tribes. Very simple. It's all just very simple in your mind, isn't it?
The only difference now would be that you know what antibiotics and crop rotations are.
Yes, those are the only differences....
I think that you're not wrong, but the historical way that these societies have handled antisocial behavior is via lynchings. I don't know that this model works if you don't bring back lynchings, which I personally find unpalatable.
Would you rather a small group of power hungry psychopath oligarchs be in charge of the lynchings according to their isolated, self-serving, sheltered, and privileged reasonings in order to maintain their status and authority? Or do you think there is some stupid super intelligence governor floating out there somewhere we need to appease for some stupid reason so it’ll invite us to the private party it’s throwing that doesn’t like it when we do that?
Would you rather a small group of power hungry psychopath oligarchs be in charge
This isn't an either/or situation. It isn't have anarchy or have psychopath oligarchs be in charge.
The fact that you need to create this obscene scenario to prove your point indicates how weak your point is.
I'll let my ignorance shine - what's the b/w photo to the right?
"Everything I don't like is CIA propaganda" is the usual argument.
Hurtful, I’m like SUPER likable
So, ‘everyone I like, too’?
Aww thanks buddy, I’m not sure I’m allowed to talk to captchas though
Hey, there’s also “CNN talking mfer”. I was called that for recalling my literal personal experiences of interacting with Russians years before full scale war.
Of course, the CIA and US Government does actually do propaganda campaigns. Whether via things like the Voice Of America radio station. Or like
Domestic Anti-Communist stuff:
Operation Mockingbird bird: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Mockingbird,
The Crusade for Cultural Freedom.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crusade_for_Freedom
The Congress for Cultural Freedom. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Congress_for_Cultural_Freedom
The Red Scare. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Scare
More general fuckery:
Lavender Scare. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lavender_scare
The suppression of the PRISM information program. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PRISM
Suppression of wartime massacres: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mukaradeeb_wedding_party_massacre
The assassin of Fred Hampton (American communist)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assassination_of_Fred_Hampton
The killing of MLK (American Socialist).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assassination_of_Martin_Luther_King_Jr.
And that's just a small portion of the US government propaganda campaigns they've run ON AMERICAN CITIZENS AND CULTURE. Not including things like the outlawing of Anarchism, or whatever the hell people like Allen Dulles and George Bush Senior were up to...
...and all of this is before even asking about overseas propaganda campaigns.
So yes, the CIA has definitely been heavily involved in curbing American opinions, and massively suppressing support for Communism and Socialism in America.
American Free speech - but only to an extent, after that you'll have to deal with government interference.
While they whole heartedly suck, it doesn't mean they're responsible for everything that sucks.
Tankies don't look at the shitty things China and Russia do.
Tankies: "ACAB except for Chinese and Russian cops who wear the tastiest boots nom nom nom"
Yes, and anti-communists tend to overlook the shitty things Capitalism and the US government do.
The critique cuts both ways. I don't think either side has much of a solution... But right now - in the west - it's clear that too much Socialism is not the problem.
The West is Cappoed out right now. Kind of tired of it.
Hey kid, wanna buy us a new Data Center?
No thanks Sir, please leave me alone.
anti-communists tend to overlook the shitty things Capitalism and the US government do
I don't think either side has much of a solution
You are conflating not being a tankie with being an anticommunist.
Being a communist shouldn't stop you from ciritquing your own state. A healthy communist state allows for open critique and discussion of what works and what doesn't. Otherwise you risk autocracy.
And I would hazard calling China and Russia communist states. Russia doesn't even call itself communist anymore. And China is a one party autocracy with a free market. They're only communists in name.
What's your definition of communist? For me it implies a centrally planned economy to the exclusion of any free market and is definitely at great risk to fall into autocracy. I think that kind of project is doomed from the start, so I wouldn't call identify myself as a communist.
Those are leninist/Maoist. If we're being generous we could call them aspirationally communist. But not actually communist.
2 defining criteria for communism is being stateless. Ie not having an governing state elected or otherwise. Definitely not having a large hierarchical unanswerable centralized government. And the other being classlessness. Something that the large central politburos preclude.
The one thing Leninism shares in the most asinine and negative way with communism. In the actual vision of communism, Marx and others theorized that the workers of the factory, etc. Should own the factory. Social ownership. However, Leninism warps and twists it negatively in that the state owns everything, not the workers. They may claim that the workers are the state. But that's bullshit as can easily be seen by any time they put down a citizen revolt. Roll out the tanks, etc. Like Tiananmen Square.
Bingo. I lost count of how many times I had to explain to a tankie that the PRC isn't even communist, and then they double down on trying to feed me some bullshit about how the workers supposedly own the state (because the monoparty happens to call itself communist). Like gtfo no the fuck they don't, that's communism in name only.
There's never once in history been a truly communist society, unless you count early Byzantine monasteries, medieval Dithmarschen, or perhaps the ninja communes in Muromachi-era Japan (namely, the Kōka ikki and Iga ikki). Those are literally the closest things to actual communism that have ever existed, at least in recorded history.
I am not sure. I've never given it a concrete thought. Communism as a whole is very nebulous. I particularly like the socialist aspects and the welfare for all goals of communism. I like the dream of not having to work to survive.
But I do not like the planned economy aspect of it. I haven't seen anyone do planned economies well. This includes non communist countries that tried it. There's something to say about how it is impossible to create a complex web of plans that accurately and adequately account for humanity's ever-changing needs and wants. But economics is fairly complex and I have little authority over the subject matter to say anything with confidence.
Basically - Freemarket, multi-socialist-only party system, with four strong pillars of democracy acting as checks and balances, with welfare for all.
I don't identify as a communist in the conventional sense or any other particular label per say. But I do lean left.
I'm not really interested in defining them or getting into that kind of argument here (not being a Communist, I don't want to defend it).
...but I believe Market Socialism is a thing. Capitalism is (in Marxist doctrine) considered a stage of Communism, and that these discussions often overlook Vietnam...
...Vietnam also has a system of Market Socialism, they've just almost resolved homelessness and have no housing crisis because they have a land redistribution system for anyone who wants to go into farming.
... so like, whilst I don't like Tankies AT ALL (they all demand your read a specific 1000 book list before even having a discussion)... I do think anti-communists are also annoying and often under cooked/biased on historical facts.
To use an analogy being anti-tankie often comes across as basically saying we need to reconsider what the alt-right are saying during the Trump era.... And exceedingly often comes down to "a tankie once called me a name I don't like".
In short - in comes across as reactionary (rather than thoughtful/legitmate). I don't like anti-tankies because they're having a reactionary response rather than just going "those guys are dicks, but I understand within a Capitalist society"
Instead anti-tankies go, "those guys are dicks for calling me that of all people, I'm going to form a club to complain about it... Even though billionaire crony Capitalism is really the problem right now".
So yeah, I don't like either of them, but I understand uptight commies better than I do the reaction to them. I can hide and block the commies pretty easy.
so like, whilst I don't like Tankies AT ALL (they all demand your read a specific 1000 book list before even having a discussion)... I do think anti-communists are also annoying and often under cooked/biased on historical facts.
I agree.
..Vietnam also has a system of Market Socialism, they've just almost resolved homelessness and have no housing crisis because they have a land redistribution system for anyone who wants to go into farming.
Always assumed they did what china did. They realized that the tool to stay in power was stability and growth, so they incentivized development on the local and national level for climbing the party ladder and good boy points. But it's nice to see them actually follow through with the ideals as well.
In short - in comes across as reactionary (rather than thoughtful/legitmate).
I understand how that can be tiring. I've stopped talking to anyone who purports any fascist or anti-socialist ideals. They will never listen. They are too comfortable with the power they hold to reconsider. On lemmy, I have come across far too many tankies who confuse me to no end. They come off as religious nuts who pretend to like the same ideals I do. They are in my opinion just as worse as the anti-communists.
I don't want to be associated with them. And I think the political spectrum is far too complicated to neatly divide people into simple categories. But it's easier to do and who has the time to actually get to know strangers online. So, as a rule, I am against any tankie or fascist.
Always assumed they did what china did.
Weirdly enough my understanding is that Vietnam were more open to Capitalism because Nixon offered them embargo free international trade. I guess both sides were sore from the Vietnam war...
...Vietnam had regional problems, which resulted in Communist Vietnam going to war with Communist Cambodia and putting an end to the Khymer Rogue and the dictatorship of Pol Pot.
Nixon still had bits of a secret sidewar going in Laos, and was looking after his legacy of opening up relations with China... So Vietnam was given more opportunities than most Communist countries are allowed.
....and other communist nations have also been to war with each other.... And lots of fascism has been associated with being anti-communist.
So these are some of the topics that as a Westerner I feel liberated by learning about. They're topics that when I learn about them it exposes limitations on our education systems, and cultural propaganda that's still ongoing under Capitalism.
We're taught all communism is the same, that Capitalism could never be fascist, and that profit is the point to life...
I'm tired boss.
They're topics that when I learn about them it exposes limitations on our education systems, and cultural propaganda that's still ongoing under Capitalism.
That's why I fucking hate when fascist defund education. Human knowledge is cumulative, it takes time to come up with the wheel from scratch.
I'm tired boss.
It's alright. Here's a cute cat.

Aww man, I put a TON of thought into my propaganda. At least give me some constructive criticism instead of just not liking it
Oh, great to see you here! I've been meaning to contact you regarding my latest propaganda paycheck delay.
19 XRAY KILO FOXTROT 28
Counter-revolutionaries aren’t innocent. Check mate, lib /s

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