The Seeed Studio XIAO ESP32-S3 Sense is for tinkerers, not super-spies.

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[–] 66 points 3 weeks ago

Actual image of OpenAI and Kash Patel's FBI meeting:

Cabinet meeting scene from "Idiocracy"

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  • [–] 24 points 3 weeks ago (4 children)

    Could have just hacked the TV like a normal pro.

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  • [–] 11 points 3 weeks ago

    OpenAI told me in an email that it used its own AI models to analyze data from the device—including forensic images of the data stored on the device—to find their suspect.

    They will never find out

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  • [–] 12 points 3 weeks ago (15 children)

    Openais products must be shit at coding if it unsuccessfully encrypted the sdcard as asked to

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  • [–] 2 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago) (14 children)

    What good will onboard encryption be if the device is seized? They will just figure out how to decrypt.

    I guess you’d need to set up asynchronous encrypt / decrypt keys, then move the data encrypted end to end. The target device can do the decrypting, while the bug only does encrypting.

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  • [–] 4 points 3 weeks ago (13 children)

    Thats not how encryption works when implemented properly

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  • [–] 0 points 3 weeks ago (12 children)

    How so?

    If you ever intend to decrypt the data, don’t you need a decryption key?

    I think my point stands, you’d need this device to be only capable of encryption. Otherwise, anyone with access to the device can decrypt it. So it goes without saying, you’d have to push the data to a second device which handles decryption.

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  • [–] 6 points 3 weeks ago (1 child)

    You can have an encryption key that can't decrypt the data. That's what public and private keys are. The device can have a public key to encrypt the data, and then it can only be decrypted with the attacker's private key. No need to even get it out of the device, you can also perform the decryption on the same device. Just don't store the private key in there.

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  • [–] 2 points 3 weeks ago*

    Right, but that’s referring to where the encryption key lives, what kind is used, and how. In the above comment, I’m just stating you need a decryption key.

    Earlier I rose that you could store the decryption key on a separate device. I thought 0x0 was contesting that idea as “not how encryption works when l implemented properly.”

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  • [–] -3 points 3 weeks ago (9 children)
  • [–] -1 points 3 weeks ago (8 children)

    Oh… so how do you decrypt your data without a decryption key? Don’t tell me you use a password…

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  • [–] -1 points 3 weeks ago (7 children)

    Do you store your password on the device in cleartext? Thats stupid.

    Just no, youre plain wrong.

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  • [–] -1 points 3 weeks ago* (6 children)

    Obviously not. Do you store your false equivalency fallacies on the internet in clear text? Apparently so, but I won’t call you stupid for it.

    • How do passwords get stored? Encrypted.
    • How do they get read? Decrypted.
    • What performs the encryption? Keys.
    • What can the keys be derived from? Passwords.
    • Where are those keys stored? On the damned device.

    Are you telling me, fuck all to the popular mantra that: if they have physical access to device, you’re boned?

    State sponsored forensic programs bypass TPM and shit all the time, requiring physical access.

    So where is your hypothetical security coming from? To me, it sounds like you’re needlessly giving me a hard time on a subject I probably understand better than you.

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  • [–] -2 points 3 weeks ago (5 children)
  • [–] 0 points 3 weeks ago* (4 children)

    A one-way function can make recovering a secret computationally infeasible, but it doesn't eliminate the implications of allowing the device to decrypt its own data.

    I presume you’re referring to a workflow where a password is put into the device, fed through a one way function to derive the key, then the key is used. So the key is derived and never stored on disk.

    Nonetheless, your key was in memory. There’s an attack surface for any forensic team. There’s also the capability of trying to brute force the password in a virtual environment after having cloned the device. FBI did this to an iPhone that had full reset after 10 failed attempts.

    There’s also the capability to compromise the OS, leave the device there, wait for an admin to come by and supply the password themselves.

    I don’t really see how the manner by which you derive your key affects the fact that having the key on device is a vulnerability. It may mitigate the vulnerability but you’re talking about corporations and government entities with practically unlimited budgeting. If the vulnerability exists, it will be explored.

    I still think my points stands. It would be stupid for someone committing espionage to allow the same device to also decrypt the data.

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  • [–] 6 points 3 weeks ago

    Honestly I wouldn’t even waste my time. That guy seems like a complete asshole, who wants to sound smart but doesn’t even understand what you’re saying.

    Encryption being a one way algorithm means nothing in the context of your original concern.

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  • [–] 2 points 3 weeks ago (2 children)

    You originally asked what the point is of a self encrypting device. Even assuming this particular device in question has the attack vector you pointed out (I don't know, I haven't checked), it isn't pointless.

    Your attack vector assumes the key is in memory. That would be a very odd and weird design that I've never seen... The auth key is usually stored on cryptographically secure hardware (a tpm), you unlock it at boot and it talks to the drive, the OS doesn't know about it or see it.

    There's technically an attack vector there, an unproven one that assumes they have a backdoor or an undisclosed flaw at the hardware level... so sure, if you really really don't want to risk it, encrypt your data yourself.

    There are a lot of reasons to choose these devices:

    1. Performance
    2. Nothing to configure os side, you just write to it and it's encrypted. Power loss means it cannot be decrypted by a malicious actor.
    3. Disposal. You can often issue a single command that scrambles the auth key and now all the data is unrecoverable without you needing to write every byte.
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  • [–] 2 points 3 weeks ago* (1 child)

    Yeah totally fair, thanks for the corrections. I’m not really all that exposed to this field, I was feeling a little frank about the details but I was trying to make a larger point.

    TPM can make it infeasible to extract the key, but there’s also the attack surface of bugging the bug. Once access is authorized to encrypted storage, protection depends on what happens outside TPM. That’s one. There’s also the potential to sniff the password, which would be two. They have full access to the device and room, with capacity to wait for the culprit to return for fetching data.

    Correct me if I’m wrong but I also think drive encryption with TPM would require that the drive be decrypted while in use. This device wouldn’t be of any value if it weren’t in use, so there’s also that.

    It seems like something you can probably count on being secure for something like a home security system. If running an espionage campaign against a trillion dollar company with Uncle Sam in the back pocket, I’d confidently bet against this system.

    Not trying to make grandiose claims about the security of TPM. I just think this scenario was a particularly risky adventure — one which could have feasibility been easier to perform with less risk, had the device come with no capability to decrypt its own data.

    I’m imagining something that perhaps micro-batches audio through a raw_audio - encrypt -> storage process, but say every 15 seconds or so. Then transport the encrypted data to a device with decryption keys.

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  • [–] 3 points 3 weeks ago

    Correct me if I’m wrong but I also think drive encryption with TPM would require that the drive be decrypted while in use. This device wouldn’t be of any value if it weren’t in use, so there’s also that.

    Effectively, yes, but that's misleading. Self encrypting drives talk directly to the tpm and encrypt/decrypt on the fly with each read/write. It isn't decrypting the whole drive when you boot, it just unlocks the key.

    If it's powered on and running normally, then yes they can potentially gain access by infiltrating the OS layer, and then the drive just willingly decrypts anything they want to read on the fly. As soon as they power off (or it crashes or receives a remote reboot command, etc), they are locked out. Unless of course they can break the TPM, but that's going into conjecture territory.

    The main scenario where a SED is better than something like bitlocker is the fact that the OS never knows about the key. Say they grabbed the device while it's running and were able to compromise the OS, now they have access to the drive data as long as it keeps running, but as soon as it shuts down the drive cannot be decrypted without unlocking the key at boot again. With bitlocker, they can read the key from the protected OS memory and decrypt the drive whenever/wherever.

    If running an espionage campaign against a trillion dollar company with Uncle Sam in the back pocket, I’d confidently bet against this system

    I would use all the tools available to me, and wouldn't count on one single solution, it's one of many layers of protection you can use.

    Point is, it isn't a pointless technology, there are lots of use cases.

    I’m imagining something that perhaps micro-batches audio through a raw_audio - encrypt -> storage process, but say every 15 seconds or so. Then transport the encrypted data to a device with decryption keys.

    Sure... Now imagine having setup this system where everything you record is encrypted and sent to a remote location. When they access the drive, which only has encrypted recording data, it's useless, but they can see your script that's sending it to your remote location, and potentially track you down that way. Wouldn't it be nice to have that encrypted at rest too, even if it's not 100% foolproof?

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  • [–] 6 points 3 weeks ago (2 children)

    I have a couple of these in a drawer somewhere. Who should I "hack"?

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  • [–] 35 points 3 weeks ago (33 children)

    If they are insinuating that because it's cheap it's not sophisticated think again.
    You can get motion sensors based on quantum dynamics principles for just $1, they are in all phones today, and those are based on extremely sophisticated theory and production methods. But industry has managed to find ways to make them extremely cheap despite that.

    So putting the sophisticated in quotes based on the low price is an oversimplification.
    That said, there are probably more sophisticated miniaturized options for spying than the cheap gadget they used.

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  • [–] 22 points 3 weeks ago (12 children)

    Sophisticated is commonly used as a comparison to other sinilar things. So a sophisticated computer in 1980 is different from one in 2026 because technology advanced significantly. A lot of common features on cell phones would have been called sophisticated 20 years ago, but not anymore.

    In this case sophisticated is intended to mean relative to other similar devices. Since this is a commodity electronic device you can easily buy for under $13 it doesn't fit the common usage of 'sophisticated' for 2026.

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  • [–] 8 points 3 weeks ago (8 children)

    Language is messy. I sometimes think of sophisticated as the opposite of simple.

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  • [–] 5 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago) (7 children)

    It kind of is, isn't it?

    Edit:
    Goddam people are contrarian here.
    https://www.merriam-webster.com/thesaurus/sophisticated
    Simple is the first antonym (opposite) stated, and simplistic is number 4.
    This place is a cesspool sometimes 🤡

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  • [–] 3 points 3 weeks ago (2 children)

    Complex is the opposite of simple.

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  • [–] 0 points 3 weeks ago (2 children)

    A computer from the 80's is still a sophisticated device.

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  • [–] 5 points 3 weeks ago (1 child)

    Not compared to modern top end hardware, which is how the word is used in this context.

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  • [–] 0 points 3 weeks ago

    Ok, but you could also say a simple pc about a modern pc, that does not mean it's actually simple. It's because it is used in place of ordinary. And ordinary also doesn't mean simple in the literal sense. Even a "simple" mobile phone is in fact not simple.

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  • [–] 9 points 3 weeks ago (17 children)

    Which sensor in phones uses quantum states? Do you mean things like SQUIDs? They are a completely different beast than classical sensors like MEMS.

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  • [+] -8 points 3 weeks ago (16 children)
  • [–] 2 points 3 weeks ago (15 children)

    Do you mean the Soli radar? That ended up in what, 2-3 phone models altogether?

    Most phones do not have motion sensors.

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  • [+] -6 points 3 weeks ago* (14 children)

    No literally a common motion sensor.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_sensor

    Quantum sensors have applications in a wide variety of fields including microscopy, positioning systems, communication technology, electric and magnetic field sensors.

    One of these are the perfectly common motion sensor that detects if you move your phone, which is based on quantum phenomenon, like the phase shift between photons send in different directions.

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  • [–] 14 points 3 weeks ago (13 children)

    None of the current phone IMUs utilise quantum phenomena for measurement. They're MEMS/FOG/RLG systems.

    Quantum IMUs are the size that requires rack mounting.

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  • [–] -1 points 3 weeks ago (9 children)

    OK but still the GPS using timing based on an atomic clock in space is absolutely sophisticated, and that is in even the cheapest smartphones today.

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  • [–] 2 points 3 weeks ago (8 children)

    Your claim was quantum phenomena utilisation in phone sensors.

    Let's stop moving the goalposts please.

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  • [–] -2 points 3 weeks ago (7 children)
  • [–] 1 point 3 weeks ago (3 children)

    Read your own links!

    First link: "But your smartphone is not a quantum computer, yet"

    The title was a question. The answer the article you linked gave was "it doesn't use quantum."

    The second link was describing regular effects as having quantum origins. Which is everything! Everything everywhere has a basis in quantum mechanics.

    "Radio waves are photons, and their behavior is described by quantum electrodynamics. "

    Yes, underpinning the entire universe is quantum mechanics. The light from a campfire is photons. No one would write an article saying, "Cavemen used a sophisticated quantum light source."

    Your claim was that smartphone motion sensors were quantum. You linked to Wikipedia about quantum sensors which did not say anything about phone sensors.

    Apple and all phone manufacturers say they use mems motion sensors.

    You were wrong. Get over yourself.

    And read the links you provide as proof.

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  • [–] -1 points 3 weeks ago* (2 children)

    First link: “But your smartphone is not a quantum computer, yet”

    I never claimed that it was, quantum computers are still experimental.
    Sorry I didn't care to read the rest, because you started off with such nonsense.

    This is also in the text:

    Also, your smartphone contains a digital camera with a CCD-sensor. This sensor is based on the photoelectric effect – which was explained by Albert Einstein by introducing quanta of light,

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  • [–] 1 point 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago)

    I never claimed that it was, quantum computers are still experimental.

    Yet you linked the article that made that statement and then refuted it!

    Quote from the article you linked:

    https://qt.eu/applications/how-your-smartphone-uses-quantum-mechanics

    Where it gives an example of how your phone uses quantum mechanics.

    which was explained by Albert Einstein by introducing quanta of light,

    Yes a photon. Light is photons. The light from a caveman fire is photons. I already explained that.

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  • [–] 1 point 3 weeks ago (2 children)

    Okay, now you're literally just chewing words to become meaningless.

    On this basis, every fucking piece of technology is quantum technology because guess what, the ENTIRE UNIVERSE WE FUCKING LIVE IN is adherent to quantum physics and mechanics, and anything, any technology, any kind of energy transference, can be broken down to some kind of quantum phenomena which would be either directly or indirectly used. A simple steam engine can be quantum. Your bedroom lights - regardless if you use LED, incandescent, neon, or a fucking candle.

    The very definition of a quantum sensor is that it utilises a quantum effect DIRECTLY, instead of relying on a transitive property that we measure in a different way. A CCD sensor might rely on "a quanta of light" therefore making it "quantum technology", but it won't be a quantum sensor.

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  • [–] -2 points 3 weeks ago (1 child)

    You are annoying and uninformed, by far the most of the universe as we perceive it as human beings is Newtonian.
    Now piss off with your ignorant crap.

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  • [–] 4 points 3 weeks ago

    The only ignorant one here is you, buddy.

    All the Newtonian mechanics can be described as a much more precise quantum function.

    But this is precisely the difference I've been talking about regarding what can be considered a quantum sensor.

    Observing a Newtonian system maketh not a quantum sensor - even though, again, all the observations are the result of quantum functions and quantum phenomena. To utilise the previous light example, this is akin to facing away from a light and using the shadows it casts to estimate the properties of the light. Whereas a true quantum sensor would be akin to measuring the light's properties directly, instead of the transitional properties of the aforementioned shadows.

    Furthermore, in no scientific debate will you ever qualify by a flurry of ad hominems followed by telling your opponent to "piss off". That is the strategy of a sore loser who cares not about facts but about being right (even when being wrong) above all else. And that, my friend, goes against science in general.

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  • [–] -4 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago) (2 children)

    I mean everything electric is a quantum sensor not to defend anything

    edit: further g sensors and accelerometers implemented by piezoelectricity are quantum sensors. They just use materials that make the sensing easy

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  • [–] 10 points 3 weeks ago (1 child)

    If the device doesn't use quantum effects directly, it isn't a quantum sensor.

    Otherwise words have no meaning and textbooks would call 1860's steam engines electric quantum engines because materials are held together with electric effects and atoms have quantum properties.

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  • [–] 0 points 3 weeks ago

    Well everything uses quantum effects directly at least the highs field like you said. Your definition is therefore bad. But the examples do use gravitons because they measure gravity the same a camera uses photons to measure light, which are both quants and are measured in "easy" ways. Just because you are posh about it and try to define it as only the large hardron collider

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  • [–] -1 points 3 weeks ago (1 child)

    I am extremely ignorant on these things. If what you say is true, it stands to reason that all the claims that "only 3 companies can produce memory chips" are most likely bullshit.

    I hate the way the world is going right now.

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  • [+] -2 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago) (1 child)