It's not Australia saying it, it's a specific person, though.
post
Bet these are the same people that put the pressure on the porn games a bit ago
Not wrong. But the payment provider literally already has the age. Just force them to tell the shop whether the potential buyer is an adult or not. The solution is literally legally and technically trivial with basically no privacy impact.
So yeah, this is probably yet another case of not actually being about child safety at all.
Maybe you should try parenting???
Also: Little kids aren't even allowed to use Steam, check the TOS. If parents abandon their responsibilities to their own children, that's hardly Steam's fault.
Does Australia not have parents?
No, parents don’t parent anywhere anymore. It is the government’s job now.
Oh fuck off. You can't build a foolproof solution and you know it, you're just asking for more power over our data and I'm so tired of it.
This is being said in a world where parents just give their kids tablets so they can keep quiet/busy. IMO the real danger is kids having "smart" tech at a young age. I almost think it's borderline child abuse to get them hooked on tech that early on.
I fully concur that the onus is on the parents first, not the platforms.
However I also think that there should be proper tools made available for parents to simplify managing what their kids can access.
No, not the Orwellian surveillance crap most politicians try to push. Those don't help.
But having a proper parental control system that has pre-made filters and is straightforward to use would get us ahead quite a lot.
About ten years ago I had to be the "parent" for my youngest brother on a number of platforms because our parents speak no English and parental controls were all... only in English.
Just last year I did the same for my nieces. And let me tell you... in ten years there was exactly zero progress made in parental control systems at Google, Microsoft and Apple. No ways to make it easier to control what your kids can access, no improvements in UX, it's still a hidden, tucked away, third or fourth thought menu.
Maybe start focusing on that instead of trying to use your incompetence to strongarm governments into handing you even more data? Just an idea.
In my age it was the TV. So not really much changed. We had this discussions decades ago. Edit: BTW I agree with you. And If I think about it, with internet its worse for obvious reasons, predators, uploading personal media, data collection in general, and for the algorithms of social media and sharing platforms. And available at anytime and any place, so you are hooked without oversight. Alright, a lot has changed!
Yeah but research shows that even TV isn’t great for young kids. Especially if it isn’t supervised and time limited.
Agreed! The solution is so very simple. All Australia needs to do is assign one jack booted thug to each child in the country, with orders to hold the kid's head underwater for a few seconds if the thug thinks the kid is visiting Steam or Roblox. If the parents object, hold their heads underwater too. As a bonus, the kids will learn to fear opposing the Australian government. It couldn't be easier.
They want the government to raise their children. Not parents. Goodness me, that would be silly.
Roblox is an actively predatory marketplace for parent's credit details.
I bet she used the internet as a girl when it was 100x less 'safe.'
Now wants to pull the ladder up behind her.
Look at her picture, based on her apparent age i doubt that's correct
EDIT
Yeah i looked her up on Wikipedia, and while it doesn't say her age explicitly, the pic there makes it clear that she didn't use the internet when she was a kid
The article also says:
After graduating from university in the early 1990s
Yeah. Out of touch old person not getting how important the Internet is for young people and their happiness and social development. Can we get people like that out of positions of power finally please?
People will do anything these days to avoid actually parenting.
The audience for this isn't even really parents of young children, it is mostly grandparents who vote as large blocs and are rather receptive to the 'save the kids' message in order to support whatever restrictions on technology they don't understand anyway.
...well if we're going to legislate something out of gaming 'fOr tHe kIDs' let's start with the slot machine bullshit and other gambling mechanics seem in things like loot boxes.
At the very least, the presence of that stuff should be an automatic Adult rating. With less predatory (but still predatory) things like subscriptions being rated as Mature.
Guessing that's not what the dickhead in the article is talking about, but I'm not gonna bother reading another rant from some pearl-clutching cunt imagining a bunch of fake problems caused by video games.
If people care so much about their children they should probably focus on actual problems that are threatening their entire futures…
I cared so much about my kids’ futures I didn’t even have any. It was the only way to ensure their happiness and safety.
Online spaces can be a threat to a child. You'd probably better understand if you were a parent.
they're not wrong, but cutting kids from the internet will do nothing to prevent their abuse, quite the contrary, because it will force kids to be even more dependent on the people who are most statistically likely to abuse them...
For anyone that doesn't know, currently because of stuff like this, people in Australia can't even access their Steam games that they've already bought unless they have a credit card, which I've learned most people over there don't. Valve isn't allowing the third-party 'steal your data' options like face scan and government ID, so Australian folk without a CC are out of luck.
Australians, please fight back against these anti-privacy laws. If these are successful, they'll come to other countries.
Total tangent here... austrailians don't have credit cards? Tell me more, I am very curious.
Credit cards are mostly a US thing. Most other places you just use debit cards.
Credit cards are of course used worldwide but most people don't own one and those who do use it rarely, since why would you borrow money to pay for something unless it's an emergency or some big / long term thing (at which point an actual loan is probably better, so again CC not needed).
At least in my corner of the world, debit cards can be used anywhere online that requires credit cards, but at least some banks disable it by default so you have to enable online payments. 15 -20 years ago it was different and you HAD to have a credit card to buy shit off Amazon or Steam so most kids couldn't get shit.
Debit cards make sense. Though I would expect those to be usable as CCs for the verification part.
what ? im Aussie and im 60 I've been using credit cards as an Aussie for 35 years or so.
I don't know anyone who doesn't have a credit card, i have 3 with a $0 balance that are paid off automatically monthly (I use 1 exclusively and the others are backups). I earn a extra month of income in a HISA and get JB HiFi and Woolies/Coles gift cards as rewards. I also have 5 debit cards because they give them out like candy every time you open an account somewhere and never use any of them at all, aside from one occasionally at the ATM.
I said "mostly a US thing" for a reason! Australia is definitely one of places where credit cards are more common. Still, from what I checked now, only around 50% of adults in Australia own a credit card, let alone use one.
In US they are popular becase they give lots of rewards (which may be the case in Australia, you definitely know better than me). These rewards come from charging credit card fees to merchants. In the EU the law protects merchants from unreasonable credit card fees, and without charging fees, there are no rewards. And without rewards, there is no point in using a credit card day to day - leaving it only for emergencies, etc.
As you said, you use it because you get nice rewards for it, which makes sense. These comes from the credit card companies fleecing sellers. In countries where the law prevents that, it just isn't a thing.
Not in the same sense as North America. We have debit cards tied to bank accounts with a similar functionality as a credit card, but they often don't work at a negative balance. No one I know has a debit card that functions the same as a North American credit card. (I'm a Canadian living in Australia.)
I have a MasterCard debit card, but it doesn't work as an age verification for Steam.
I'm not an expert, I'm just being told this from an Australian. They do have credit cards, but it's not as much a necessity to do things as it is in North America. So, from what I'm told, a lot of adults don't have one.
Australians absolutely have credit cards. The previous poster seems to be getting their information from a single Aussie.
I couldn't find numbers specifically for the percentage of people who have at least one card, but the total number of CC accounts indicates that it's likely that the majority of working adults have one. That being said, credit card usage is low compared to other countries, I suspect because the government made the banks get together and create a universal electronic payment network in the 1980s, and we've all been used to paying virtually anywhere with our regular ATM cards, direct from our normal bank accounts, for decades. Credit cards are primarily used for, y'know, credit, and not just everyday transactions.
And for all the talk of the credit card companies, my personal experience with online payment processors has been that they often won't accept Cirrus or VISA Debit cards, or at least not cards issued outside their own country. So online shopping can be difficult without a credit card.
I just want to be clear, what my post meant to say is that it's (apparently) not as common to use a credit card like you would in North America (basically a necessity if you want to get a car, apartment house, etc).
This person that I got the information from was very up in arms about this, so I'm not sure why they would lie about this. Again, I looked this up after. You can find posts about people discussing this very issue from a month ago.
My whole point wasn't even about the credit cards. It's about the anti-privacy laws.
You are completely wrong.
Credit cards are very common here. Also, I don't have a credit card and I haven't lost access to any of my steam games.
I've played games like Wuthering Waves and VPN'd to America and the game has asked me to verify my age then I've disabled the VPN and started the game again and magically it's not now.
I'll chime in to say that I'm an Australian and on the flipside I don't know anyone with an actual credit card (not debit). So yeah you're also making a sweeping generalisation.
Also none of my debit cards work around the steam requirements, it depends on which bank you're with.
I don't know what to tell you, I got my information from an Australian, and everything I've seen online confirms this.
I’m an Australian
I don’t know an adult Australian who doesn’t at least have a Visa debit card, which more or less functions as the same.
Many use EFTPOS (and quite frankly our government should move that to a credit payment facility so we can ditch the American ones) but what that Aussie told you is not correct; in fact most of the larger retailers are pushing for cashless transactions.
But a debit card explicitly isn't a credit card, which is what's being talked about here
It uses the same function and the point stands…most Australians use a credit card or BNPL which is essentially the same.
Not when it's being used for age verification...
Who uses these for age verification?
Thank you for some further explanation.
Regardless of this, I believe these changes should be protested. None of this is ever looking out for children, and I'm sure if stuff like this succeeds over there, it'll just be a matter of time before we've got the same thing in the Americas.
I will say, as is alluded by discussion further on, there is a big lean from many toward Visa debit because it uses existing funds. Most I know who are working and even a few not working maintain credit cards however.
Or BNPL; I actually prefer it because there’s no maintaining credit fees and I can maintain it well enough.
It really depends on which Australia you qualify in. I’m in the B team so credit offerings aren’t something I’m really a part of, aside from BNPL. Many Aussies who ‘own’ homes run most of their lives through credit cards and home loan equity.
I'd wager this person who spoke about it to me is on the younger side - probably early 20s, so some more of this is making sense.
I also believe Steam doesn't allow Visa Debit - at least, it doesn't here, so perhaps it's the same over there.
I believe it does, in fact I can find out for sure because my son is on Steam I believe, and runs Visa debit
I’ll go ask him
Edit: yes he does and yes he adds funds to his Steam account using his Visa debit card
Glad I could help here ay, most of the time I’m fairly useless
Are you sure that a Visa debit card is a credit card? I ask because in Canada we also have those (I have one) and it is specifically not a credit card. Rather, it is a debit card that is sometimes accepted by systems that ask for a credit card.
I gotta be honest, I understand this position. I have a real difficult kid. We're working on building trust, but it's a process. The fact of the matter is that he seeks out inappropriate content and he can't seem to help himself, just too impulsive.
There's a reason for these behaviors, and like I said, we're working on it. But in the mean time, we've had to completely lock down all technology in the house. And most of it is complete garbage when it comes to parental controls. Stay away from Roku for instance, that device is fucking horrible, just the worst.
Anyway, the thing is, sometimes parental controls are in fact necessary, but as long as they exist, things are fine. Steam for instance has a great system, you can control what aspects of steam a kid has access to, multiplayer functionality, the store, online content, etc. a all that can be switched on or off. And for games you can use their general rating system (which is imperfect) or you can manually whitelist individual games. Finally, you can lock it all behind a simple pin code. Honestly, this is how all such platforms should work, it's manageable.
I don't think there's really any legitimate reason to complain about the systems steam currently has in place.
Roblox on the other hand... That's a shitshow. We don't touch Roblox. And it probably shouldn't be allowed to operate the way it does.
These people are NOT talking about parental control, they are talking about taking control over what children have access to regardless of what specific parents think. If your child were less impulsive, as most children are, you wouldn't have to be that restrictive - some common sense rules and limits would probably suffice, and these things are important to both build trust and develop responsibility in most children.
But they want to do the same with children online as they did with public spaces starting decades ago - taking away the possibility of experiencing the world on their own terms in adequate environments for those children who are capable of it. They are already taking away their communication channels on a large scale in addition to deanonymizing their citizens on the internet, and now they are still pushing for more.
The parental controls on Steam are absolutely fine, and there's even the possibility of setting the account into offline mode or needing approval for every single login on the parents phone if they want to. Roblox... is a completely different can of worms, and i would never allow my child a roblox account, because normalizing what is going on there is a very bad idea.
Don't let yourself get fooled. They want to decide how much you can trust your children, regardless of how good a parent you are or how well behaved you child is.
I mean, child mortality from plastic bag suffocation dropped after they started printing those warnings so I'm not sure why that'd be something to fear.
It's easy to look back at history and say "what a bunch of idiots", but it's important to remember that there was once a time when having plastic bags all around your home wasn't such a ubiquitous thing like it is today. The things that seem obvious to us now were still new and untested at one time. The rise in plastic film suffocation started around the rise of dry-cleaning; until that point, there wasn't much disposable plastic film in people's lives, at all. Society had no prior experience to learn from, in this sense.
What we're seeing here isn't too dissimilar in this regard. Up until fairly recently, the concept of a globally-connected, unmoderated network that was accessible by children and predators alike just didn't exist. That network existing in literally everybody's pockets 24 hours a day is an even newer idea. And it's not even just one network, it's in almost every facet of kids' lives these days.
We can all sit around and say "wow what a bunch of bad parents for allowing this to happen", but many of those parents didn't grow up in a world where this was a reality. While many of them grew up in a time where online predators existed, they didn't grow up in a time when those predators could interact with children directly at any time and any location. They grew up in a time when you had a PC in your room, which you didn't take with you, and that your parents could physically access; kids these days take their phone everywhere at all times, parental controls today are more useless than when we were kids, and it's trivially easy for kids to hide their online presence from their parents now. Today's parents, by and large, just simply do not have the experience needed to address this on a large scale.
The morbid reality is that the only reason it seems obvious not to let children play with plastic bags is because nearly every single plastic bag you've ever seen in your entire life says "this bag is not a toy". You grew up in a world where that problem had already been solved, and at the cost of dozens of dead children. This is not yet a solved problem.
Does she even know what she is talking about? Steam isn't allowed to be used and registered by childs (note, "Subscriber" in this context means Steam user account): https://store.steampowered.com/subscriber_agreement/
You may not become a Subscriber if you are under the age of 13. Steam is not intended for children under 13 and Valve will not knowingly collect personal information from children under the age of 13. Additional age restrictions may apply in your country.
The infamous nanny state.
Boooo
Roblox has significant parental control gaps. You can say that parents should just not let their children play Roblox but that really isn’t fair for the child.
To be honest, most platforms should be banned for children because they are all predatory. Anyone who has seen a mobile ad or seen the subscription pricing for most children’s apps would agree. A quality app for children is the exception.
Personally if I were in charge I would hold Google and Apple accountable for the trash advertised on their platforms. It’s not ok.
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