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The government says the main goal is to protect children's development and their freedom to develop as individuals, arguing that girls should be protected from potential family or social pressure to wear a headscarf.
If that is really the objective, then make domestic religious coercion liable to incur fines and institute mechanisms for kids to safely report coercion and for protecting and defending the choices of girls. You force your daughter to wear something against her will? She reports it to a safe adult at school and you get a visit from child services. The same mechanisms of course should be in place for protecting kids from bullying, domestic violence, atheist kids, queer and trans kids, kids whose parents are far right extremists, kids who support a different football team than their dads, metalhead kids, etc. Protecting kids is uncontroversial.
Every time I see a ban like this, I have to wonder how many families did the math and decided that their girls actually don't need an education outside the home, or their wife doesn't need a job or to go grocery shopping herself, and all of them will just have to rely on their male relatives their whole lives to take care of them. Policies that force people to dress outside of their cultural acceptability leads to isolation, not integration.
It's illegal to not send your children to school so the cops can come and pick you up.
These laws encourage communities to establish their own private schools, so that their kids are no longer targeted by this kind of fascist intrusion by the state.
Except, in Europe it's usually mandatory to take your kid to school until a certain age and home schooling is usually not an option.
And guess what? This literally just happened last week in Flanders in Belgium.
Girls were rounded up and publically stripped in front of administrators.
Now they can't go to school but it is illegal to stay home, but the schools are also completely full so they aren't allowed to enroll I'm another school that doesn't publically strip them.
It's fucked. But of course, all other religions can wear whatever they want as long as they are not brown people.
Probably less than the number that decided enforcing an oppressive style of dress wasn't worth the hassle when faced with minimal societal pressure.
But like, if it’s cold out and I wrap my scarf around my head, is that ok? Why not?
That's fine under this law because it directly targets Muslim religious observance.
If you're not Muslim, you can wear what you want.
If you're wearing hijab to hide alopecia or chemotherapy-induced hair loss, that's fine, so long as you're not also brown. Hell, if you're not Muslim, you can go ahead and wear hijab on a bad hair day.
Doesn't that just reinforce that these veils are a form of oppression, if the girls and woman can be banned from leaving the home without them?
The exact wording isn't clear, but if it really is just Islamic clothing, then it's a bad law.
If it were more generalized, such as "no one under 14 is allowed to follow religion enforced dress codes, such as..." Which also included dresses, skullcaps, head coverings of all kinds, etc. inside of a school, that would be a lot more reasonable.
But a law targeting one religion, and ignoring others, just reeks of bigotry.
Writing vagueness into your law just allows for selective enforcement.
Guess what groups would be targeted?
That law would also be terrible not to mention it would be like similar laws like French Laïcité be very discriminatory enforced to target minorities.
Actually the law you described would suck ass as well.
I'd be for it, religious indoctrination and gas lighting kids is nothing but abuse. i'd raise the age to 18 though.
If you disagree, you should say why you disagree, so that your comment is constructive to the discussion.
If the ban is intended to stop children from feeling pressured to dress in a way that conforms to their family's religion, why does it only target islam and not extend to other religious garments or accessories (e.g. kippah, turban, crucifix)?
Because headscarves are the most oppressive, by far. None of the other things cover you up that much and prohibit you from expressing yourself. Also, how many Christan parents force their kids to wear a crucifix? Barely any, so no debate necessary.
so no debate necessary.
People only say stuff like this when they have a weak argument that won't stand up to scrutiny. What about a trans kid with Christian parents, do you think they're allowed to dress how they want? Do you think they're also facing oppression even if it isn't so readily apparent? Other religions also dictate how you're supposed to dress, how to cut your hair, and how you can express yourself so they should all be included too.
If this rule change isn't going to affect that many kids because their parents dont force them to wear religious attire, then it should be a no-brainer to include them too since there would be little pushback.
I will add that other groups, like trans women from middle eastern backgrounds for example, do also wear head covering to feel more feminine and in line with their real gender too.
I myself still wear black covid masks because it hides the 5-o'clock shadow and feels more feminine. This would be illegal in Austria under "Prohibition on the Covering of the Face" (originally targeting niqabs)
Overall governments placing rules on what people can and can't wear is a red flag. The only exception I understand is nazi tattoos.
Yup, I agree.
That said, even if it's only one religion being targeted now, it's better that some are free from misogynistic religious oppression rather than none, in my view.
If not for religion, banning a scarf would be universally seen as inane.
Update: I somehow misunderstood 'inane' as 'mundane'. So ignore my comment.
IDK... I think banning a regular scarf, without religious meaning is weird. There may be any reasons for wearing them. Cold weather, covering up something that might look bad, or just because it looks cool.
Banning shoes indoors or on carpets because of dirt, fine, but otherwise, its like reverse indecency laws...
Sexist and racist nonsense targeted to control women and punish minorities.
Just let women decide what the fuck they want to wear. These laws do the opposite of that, and they are fully aware, because it has never been about women's rights to begin with. It has always been racism.
Ban religions on kids. Best law.
While religion itself is a disaster, this is unambiguously targetting one religion in particular and will not have positive effects.
I thought girls weren't required by Islam to wear headscarfs until that age anyway?
You know theres also the solution of just making sure theyre not forced to wear it. The problem is not a fucking piece of clothing but systematic oppression. The west happily does systematic oppression so long as it doesnt look bad. The only difference in other places is that it looks bad from the outside. You shouldnt change the looks of it but what actually happens. And on top of that, if you have a child in a school that is visibly distressed because theyre forced to wear something thats a sign of something not being right. If the government bans it youre removing a sign of abuse. Its like making having bruses illegal in public, youre not solving abuse just making everybodys life randomly a bit worse and hiding the signs of some abuse. Stupid ass law
"You know theres also the solution of just making sure theyre not forced to wear it." Just honest curiosity, but how? This sounds really difficult in any case, let alone with young children.
I mean our whole social system is based on that. Teachers, doctors, coaches, etc already have the job of being the substitute parents or friends of children so this is just the extension of that existing job. The actual role of school, especially middle and high school, isnt really about shoving a shit ton of bullshit down the throats of kids but to expand their worldview, train their social skills, and yes, notice and report abuse when necessary. Forcing a child to wear a certian religious garment is abuse. But the child participating in it willingly shouldnt be illegal, i think thats ridiculous. I know there are a lot of reddit atheists here on lemmy but the same way any other choice is someones, religion should be too. Of course organized religion used to spread hate is different but as someone who lives in a city in sweden where religion is something that helps organize community rather than something that is used to spread hate, makes me think theres a world where everyone can believe in whataver they believe.
What about other traditions? Why single out Islam?
Continued singling out of Islam will lead to Christofascism, as Christianity will seem like an exceptional religion, incapable of anything bad.
Yes the traditional headdress of Christians should be banned as well.
You’re joking, but an equivalent ban would be on wearing crosses, or removing distinct Christian architectural features like church and cathedral towers/bells.
Not really. The original intention of the head scarf isn't religious expression like wearing a cross is. It would be more like banning religious dress that forbids any exposed skin beneath the neck besides the hands like some christian cults do. The original reasoning for wearing a cross was to signal to other christians that you were a christian. What is the original reasoning for girls to cover their hair?
If you're looking at original reasoning for allowing or banning religious practices, you'd have to ban it all because there's no logic to any of it. This is about religious freedom.
If you are concerned that religious communities are controlling or oppressive, the thing to do is to provide access to education and wealth opportunities, not try to force them to change their behaviors with laws that will only make them more insular and resistant to liberal cultures. Let them be free to practice their religion how they see fit, but also expose them to different ideas so they can actually have a choice.
How would you ban religious architecture only for under-14 year olds?
Seriously, just blanket ban all religious symbols and references—crosses, yarmulkes, star and crescent, head coverings, etc.—and call it a day. You go to school to learn, not to indoctrinate.
But genital mutilation is still ok, I hope?
This will only help to marginalize different parts of the society. It is no different to pitting them against each other.
I am not a fan of headscarf on children, the whole philosophy of it is quite sickening to be honest. But I have seen enough to know this won't help girls become independent individuals who can think for themselves and don't submit all their life to other men.
"You can't wear those clothes here!! This an open and free society! Here in Austria we follow The One True Dresscode."
I don't think decisions made in this manner have a very simple correct answer. For example, the commandment in Islam for women to cover themselves is intended for after women reach adulthood. But suppose this person has a religion, and this religion requires girls to wear a headscarf from birth. In that case, this situation may be compatible with equality but contrary to freedom. But if persons who are not yet of legal age are under their parents' responsibility while also being under the state's responsibility, then in this case will they be subject to two separate legal systems: the rules in state buildings and the rules at home and in public space? In this situation, it is difficult to choose a side.
Legally dictating how much of a minor's body must be exposed to the general public? Are you fucking serious?
What right-wing fascists are promoting this law?
Watch the average Liberal agree with far right parties because they are racist again.
Head scarves laws/rules are not "racist", please try again.
Once again, how about banning the Kippah, and uncut locks? Or would banning Jewish religious symbols suddenly be problematic to you? The state doesn't get to pick favorites. Public education must be neutral to all faiths, and provide a secular curriculum. That's the only viable and just path towards a free and fair secular society.
Not necessarily, but in practice, almost always. There is no other motivation. They don't want parents to be able to indoctrinate children into the parent's own culture and instead want the children to be indoctrinated with their own culture. That's not just racism, it's a form of cultural genocide. We know a lot about that here in Canada.
100% of users called Mulligrubs are racist. That is not a personal attack.
As a non Muslim who was born and lived in a Muslim majority country, I 100% agree with this ban. Children shouldn't be forced or indoctrinated into that oppressive way of life. When they grow up, they can wear it if they want.
There are millions, possibly hundreds of millions of women and girls around the world that are forced to wear that (or even more extreme versions of it) against their will. Just because we have some anecdotes of women wanting to wear it (after being brainwashed their whole lives with it) doesn't mean that banning it would infringe on anyone's rights.
Believe me there are entire countries where if you as a woman went there you would be forced to cover up 😢.
Then again should we be policing how women dress in an open and free society? Because, you know, that's what Muslim countries do, so maybe if you don't like Muslims then don't emulate them?
Or are you in favor of this sort of let's call it Cultural Marxism, where the state dictates couture? Coutoural Marxism, as it were.
Ideally we shouldn't, but practically we must, only to prevent religious oppression and abuse, and the spread of such things.
Honestly, we should bring back headscarves (and hats, while we're here) as a fashionable accessory.
That'd nip this in the bud.
And the fun shenaniganery that goes with hats! Only straw hats in summer, but so help you god if you're seen wearing a straw hat after labor day.
The absolute slander against traditional hats and scarves has got to stop!
It's not getting cooler and we wore them for a reason.
I'm still pretty flummoxed about what to do with them indoors though. But I can see a hat holster taking off, like those people that wear big ass phones on their belts. Or, the way things are going, just hang hats on your gun holster lol
I actually agree. That might make the girls feel more comfortable with not wearing it if they want. Seeing that you're the only ones doing something sometimes just ingrains the need to set yourself apart. (Ask me how I know.)
Of course, we'd have to deal with idiots whining about cultural appropriation again.
I get why women who are sexually mature have to cover in islam. But I don't get covering of little girls. I more often see covered mums with their little daughters uncovered which makes sense. But I don't get covering of the little ones.
I mean, their prophet raped a nine year old, whom he married when she was six. If your prophet thinks that kids are sexually attractive it makes sense that people wish to protect their daughters. The irony that they do it for their prophet is usually lost on them though.
If you get it please explain.
Because I only see that as a way to keep women less valuable than men.
My 8 yo niece wants to wear cuz its pink. Heck even my 3 yo nephew wants to wear one. They are children, they don't need a reason.
Today there many crisis in Europe. Housing, joblessness, food insecurity, AI etc. but the leaders want to make this an issue because it serves as a good distraction and triggers a xenophobic/fascistic response from the population. Its easy to redirect anger from structural issues towards minorities especially if they look foreign. That's the reason
You are being insincere. You are describing it as if its just another piece of garment. And that evil european racists want to ban it. No one has problem with any other traditional piece of clothing. Hindus, arabs, africans they can wear whatever because their are just clothes. Hijab is different because it changes how you view/interact the person wearing it. Its like wearing lingerie in public: not appropriate. Grown women can do whatever but for children there are different expectations. And its a widely accepted norm that govs do have an interest in how kids are brought up. Its not to sole discretion of the parents.
How is this even a debate? Everyone should agree that they should be banned. But for some reason, when it is religiously motivated, it suddenly is fine to force woman to veil themselves? Imagine the utter outrage of the Left when the Right would force women to wear hijabs. Why tf is it okay when one side does it, but not okay when the other does it? It's pure hypocrisy.
I love Austria so much, been there a few times. This does not represent the folks I broke bread with over there.
From 2027-28, they will also tattoo a crescent on the foreheads of students from offending communities. For easier identification, of course.
The following year, they will go to separate schools to learn more about European culture.
After that, they will go to a special work camp to learn useful skills. This solution will be quite final, so no more steps will be required.
The world would be a better place if leaders were capable of even asking the question, "Are we the baddies?" The second step is answering the question truthfully.

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