If you pay 1% for one house, someone with 2 houses should pay 2%, and a company with 2000 homes should pay 2000%

That would make it increasingly difficult for mega companies to buy up everything and torture the housing market

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[–] 127 points 2 months ago (-1 children)

Luckily for the billionaires they don't own any homes, their homes are part of a complex companies, or some bullshit.

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    [–] 90 points 2 months ago (55 children)

    A company would just fire up 2000 subsidiaries to own the homes.

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  • [–] 61 points 2 months ago (53 children)

    Maybe companies shouldn't be able to own companies. It just allows to much fuckery. Maybe only real human beings should be able to have ownership stakes in companies, llcs, etc.

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  • [–] 67 points 2 months ago (50 children)

    Companies shouldn't be able to own homes.

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  • [+] -24 points 2 months ago (48 children)

    Why should a landlord be prevented from registering his property under his company?

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  • [–] 27 points 2 months ago (35 children)

    Landlords shouldn't be able to own homes.

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  • [–] 4 points 2 months ago (3 children)

    That works well as a thought terminating slogan online. Less so as a practice in the real life.

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  • [–] 0 points 2 months ago (2 children)

    I'd hope it was a thought commencing slogan, maybe giving people curiosity as to think:

    "How could another sapient person believe something so different from my own beliefs? That person is even making it a joke, therefore they must have had it bouncing around in their brain a bunch, so they must believe it and think about it a lot. Huh, maybe there is something more to know, and think about."

    I even made a comment with a small answer, to the other person, who asked like a human.

    Clearly didn't work on you though.

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  • [–] 5 points 2 months ago (1 child)

    When people drop these one-liners that perfectly align with the popular view of the platform, my first assumption is that they in fact have not thought about it and instead are just saying the popular thing for applause.

    Perhaps that's a cynical view but in my experience it seems true more often than not. You too walked back on your original statement after being questioned on it. I can't learn from people who don't say what they mean or mean what they say.

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  • [–] 3 points 2 months ago

    Hm, I see your point about clarity.

    My original comment "landlords shouldn't be allowed to own houses" was a joke, in the sense that it is an impossible paradox, with the implied statement being "landlords shouldn't exist".

    That is indeed the prevailing view on this platform, because it's a leftist/marxist/anarchist platform, mostly.

    I might not be the right person to give you a pointer directly into the theory of those, but I have a number of YouTubers I really like, that talk about these issues, and make incredibly good explanations.

    Two I'm really into, lately, are NonCompete, and Unlearning Economics, that have some great video essays, the first one about communist perspectives, the second going in depth against things that are considered "common sense" in capitalist economics, and their real results when actually looked at.

    I'd say you can click on their channels and click whatever interests you most (NonCompete has a video on thought terminating clichés lol), but I can also recommend a couple specific videos:

    On NonCompete, there's a video that contains a pretty good explanation of what is called the class war, that is, what tools the rich use, to keep the poor working. Housing costing so much, is one of those tools.

    On Unlearning Economics, there is a personal favorite of mine, Free stuff is good actually. It's more about the adjacent philosophies, but you can easily extrapolate from it, to housing, if you like spending an hour listening to a guy talking about economics lol.

    Internet comments are so bad at conveying rich ideas, and so easy to not notice the humanity behind people, that it's refreshing to have people like you answer, with the honest intent behind what they wrote. I hope what I sent interests you!

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  • [–] 2 points 2 months ago (30 children)
  • [–] 10 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago) (29 children)

    That was a kind of aggressive way for me to express that, but, in all seriousness, the reason is that:

    Being a "landlord", that is, very specifically, an "owner of houses you don't live in, but rent to people for profit", is a way to live that is inherently abusive to the people you rent to.

    You have ownership of a basic good people need to survive (housing), which is effectively scarce (because it's not allowed for just anyone to build a house without incredible amounts of money, even homelessness is fairly illegal in many places), and you say to people:

    "Either give me a monthly fee for me to allow you to have a roof over your head, or I'm calling the police (the only people allowed to be violent in the country) to kick you out"

    It's a way of making money, where the owner doesn't do anything helpful to society, except find people who are desperate to survive, and milk them of what they make.

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  • [–] -3 points 2 months ago* (28 children)

    How is it not helpful to society to allow others to live in your house? And it's not landlords who are looking for tenants, it's the other way round.

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  • [–] 5 points 2 months ago (13 children)

    The problem is being a landlord as a job. The problem is rich people buying up housing (or land and building on it) they don't use, in order to rent for profit.

    It's about everyone who has no house. All the people who have no alternative, apart from renting from some rich people.

    If someone "allowed" others to live in his house, without demanding half their salary, you wouldn't see me complaining.

    And the reason that buying or building a house is so expensive, is explicitly because rich people clamber over each other, to make the best investment of their lives: Housing.

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  • [–] -1 points 2 months ago (12 children)

    People have a right to invest.

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  • [–] 3 points 2 months ago (3 children)

    We're saying that maybe, just maybe, basic human necessities shouldn't be the object of speculation.

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  • [–] 1 point 2 months ago (2 children)

    Agreed but we shouldn't prevent people from buying or selling houses.

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  • [–] 1 point 2 months ago (7 children)

    Housing can be affordable or an investment, not both.

    People can invest elsewhere, in markets not necessary for survival.

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  • [–] 1 point 2 months ago (6 children)

    But I don't want to lose value on my house

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  • [–] 1 point 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago) (5 children)

    The only purpose for value of your home is for selling it in order to purchase a different home. If the cost of the home you'll be purchasing also goes down your not actually losing on anything except for a made up number, and your property taxes go down as well.

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  • [–] 0 points 2 months ago (4 children)

    No? The purpose of the value of my home is that it gives me my net worth.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 month ago (3 children)

    The purpose of any home is to provide you with shelter and a place to live, not increase your imaginary high score.

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  • [–] 0 points 1 month ago (2 children)

    Imaginary? If money is imaginary, try living without it.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 month ago (1 child)

    I live every day without using a "net worth". You can not spend, trade, or consume a "net worth". If your government decides to print a bunch a money inflation is going to cause your "net worth" to be a bigger number, but that doesn't change how many things you own. If the housing market crashes that also doesn't change how many things you own, but your "net worth" changes to a different imaginary number.

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  • [–] 2 points 2 months ago (10 children)

    That's like saying people with major medical issues "are looking for" insurance salespeople to fix their medical issues. They "need" insurance because the system is fucked, not because insurance will make them better. Likewise, no one "looks for" a landlord, they look for housing they can afford.

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  • [–] 1 point 2 months ago (9 children)

    Yes but housing is much more expensive than healthcare. The government can't afford to provide it for free.

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  • [–] 1 point 2 months ago* (1 child)

    No, what the government actually can't afford is to have homeless people overutilizing public services (ambulances, police, hospitals, and jails) because they don't have stable housing. It's way, wayyy cheaper to provide people free housing than let them be homeless, Finland has proved this with basic arithmetic, our culture is just really into performative cruelty for some reason.

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  • [–] 1 point 2 months ago (6 children)

    You mean the taxpayers can't afford it, and you're wrong. Trillionaires exist, we could afford anything we want to if we had people in charge willing to tax them fairly.

    Regardless, the potential cost difference doesn't negate my previous point, no one has ever "looked for a landlord".

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  • [–] 1 point 2 months ago (5 children)

    That's not an individual country's decision to take. People look for housing and landlords provide a valuable service to society.

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  • [–] 1 point 2 months ago (4 children)

    That's not an individual country's decision to take.

    What isn't? How to tax it's citizens? Pretty sure individual countries are the only ones making that decision.

    People look for housing and landlords provide a valuable service to society

    Almost, people need housing and landlords can exploit that need. Renters provide a valuable service to landlords. How about this analogy: people need food, but that doesn't mean every single company that sells food is good for society, or even good for the individual people they sell to. Many are the opposite, at least in the US. Look I'm not arguing for banning buying more than one property, though I'm not against it, all I'm saying is that your claim that people "look for" landlords is absurd.

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  • [–] 0 points 2 months ago (3 children)

    No. Countries make that decision based on the international tax rates. If your tax rates are too high, companies will move to other countries.

    Selling food is God's work.

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  • [–] 1 point 2 months ago (2 children)

    That makes sense, God must be the one poisoning all our meat and produce since Trump defunded the FDA. ✊↔️

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  • [–] 1 point 2 months ago (2 children)

    There's a reason "rent seeking" is a derogatory term.

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  • [–] 5 points 2 months ago (6 children)

    Ok, not sure if you really wanted a response here. Always feel awkward responding to a one-sentence comment with an essay, but to answer your question, this is required. Or TL:DR: companies exist for limited liability, and limited liability is grossly inappropriate for rental housing.


    We've really lost the plot with what corporations and limited liability were invented for. The original idea behind incorporation was that it allowed people to invest in something with many other people, and to limit individual investor losses on risky megaprojects.

    The early corporations were for things like major canal projects or overseas trading ventures. Let's say a canal would be a good idea somewhere, but the cost will be enormous. The only way to fund it is to have thousands of people pool their investments for it. Those thousands of people aren't going to be involved in running the project. Maybe they're just investing the equivalent of a hundred or a few thousand dollars today. But without limited liability, if the canal project goes under, every investor is fully responsible for the debts of that venture. You may invest only a thousand, but if the canal goes under before it finishes, without limited liability, you could be on the hook for many times your original investment. Limited liability allowed for the democratization of investment. Without it, only the rich are able to truly invest in things.

    Historically, this was a huge barrier to investment and economic development. Rome for example didn't have anything like our modern finance system; most things were produced in large family businesses. You couldn't just go buy stock in a venture to invest in it. If you weren't willing to fund the entire thing, run the entire thing, and be responsible for the entire thing, you couldn't invest in it.

    This is what corporations were meant to solve - the problem of funding large risky projects beyond the ability of single investors to reasonably afford. Historically, you couldn't just go and register a corporation on a whim. Often they required acts of legislative bodies to create them. They were seen as morally dubious in many ways - after all, shouldn't everyone be responsible for the consequences of their own actions? Limited liability gets away from this. The bargain was made that though limited liability sacrifices some amount of fairness and justice, the prosperity the projects it allows will produce will be worth it on net.

    But that isn't how incorporation is used today. Today, landlords will open up dozens of LLCs. They'll put a single property into each LLC. If a tenant is seriously injured due to the landlord's neglect, the most they can ever sue the landlord for is the value of the property they rent. The landlord could own a hundred properties - the most you can ever sue them for is the one you're renting. In a serious injury, you could be on the hook for millions in lifelong medical expenses, and your landlord may be sitting on a fortune of a hundred million of dollars, but you can only ever sue them for the few hundred thousand the property you rent is worth. The company you're renting from doesn't own any more assets than that.

    Rent seeking is not the type of risky moonshot venture that incorporation was invented for. Incorporation for landlords is not about encouraging moonshot investments, it's just a state subsidy for landlords. It's not like we wouldn't have rental units without incorporation. Most of the citizens of Rome rented. The concept of renting is likely as old as the concept of a city. The rental market worked just fine without limited liability.

    This type of liability risk should not be handled as a subsidy by the state. Landlords can already purchase liability insurance. And that's how they should have to handle all the risks of being sued by their tenants. Someone with a dozen rental units can get a $5 million liability policy if they don't want to put their entire net worth on the line in the event one of their tenants being seriously hurt.

    And crucially, such a system would much better protect tenants. We currently just give the subsidy of limited liability to landlords as a gift. We ask for nothing in return. Insurance companies aren't so generous. If you want a liability policy for your rental units, the insurance company is going to want to have a say in how those units are operated and maintained. The insurance company doesn't want to insure a dilapidated death trap of a rental house.

    I don't think landlords should be able to put rental houses into LLCs, because I think we've completely lost the plot on what corporations were meant to achieve. Hell, I would set the minimum number of owners for a corporation to be a hundred people (with limits on how much a single individual can own.) Incorporation was meant as a tool for crowd-sourcing daring and groundbreaking infrastructure, research, and other ventures. It was never intended to be a gift to rich people operating ordinary businesses that they have complete individual control and ownership over.

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  • [–] 1 point 2 months ago (4 children)

    "the most they can ever sue the landlord for is the value of the property they rent" - why?

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  • [–] 2 points 2 months ago (3 children)

    Because the landlord, i.e. the LLC, only owns that property, and nothing else

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  • [–] 1 point 2 months ago (2 children)
  • [–] 2 points 2 months ago (1 child)

    Limited liability is a legal status in which a person's financial liability is limited to a fixed sum, most commonly the value of a person's investment in a corporation, company, or joint venture. If a company that provides limited liability to its investors is sued, then the claimants are generally entitled to collect only against the assets of the company, not the assets of its shareholders or other investors.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limited_liability

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  • [+] -7 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago)

    I wonder what happens in that case? 🤔 Oh, totally forgot. Venezuela, Cuba, USSR, North Korea. Not sure I want to end up with something like that. How many more times people need to repeat these horrible communist experiments to learn that this is not the good way to live?! Speaking from experience growing up in USSR in the 80s. Yes, capitalism sucks, but other options are often worse.

    Edit: keep downvoting, it’s much easier than writing a factual argument.

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  • [–] 4 points 2 months ago

    Oh these 2000 people own 2000 completely unrelated companies! They all make business with each other because the market is so healthy! All the houses are offered at the same prices because the market works so perfectly by forcing companies to compete with each other so the real value is reached!

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  • [–] 2 points 2 months ago

    And that ONE human making the money should also be responsible for any damages his company makes!

    You know we could call it "Accountability", sounds good to me I don't know why it's not so already.

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  • [–] 45 points 2 months ago* (9 children)

    They'd just make 2,000 shell companies, each with one house.

    Perfectly legal.

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  • [–] 21 points 2 months ago (5 children)

    Companies shouldn't be allowed to own housing

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  • [–] 11 points 2 months ago (3 children)
  • I'd add a couple short-term exceptions: Construction companies may own housing during construction and for the amount of time it takes for newly built homes to sell to resident owners. Banks, credit unions and such should be able to foreclose on defaulted mortgages and take possession of the property for a certain amount of time, if it's not sold within that time it goes to government auction.

    They should not be allowed to retain ownership over mass amounts of occupied dwellings.

    Denser housing like apartment blocs may need to work like condos, residents either outright own their portion of the building or become stakeholders in the building's corporation, how to do that without inventing the turbo HOA will require further research and development.

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  • [–] 7 points 2 months ago

    They often do that already.

    It reduces the liability when sued. If you do something dumb and owe someone $100,000,000. You just abandon that one property and make that company bankrupt, you don't lose all your other properties too.

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  • [–] 3 points 2 months ago

    because of that reading government anti-corruption investigations can cause vertigo - just getting through the tense web of shells and shells of shells and mothershells and whatnot - there was one case in which the company had like 50 entities removed from the culprit

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  • [–] 42 points 2 months ago* (10 children)

    I’ve said that taxes should increase drastically after you own two residential properties. Allow two for the people who own things like a home and some separate farmland, or maybe a lake house. The point is that companies shouldn’t be able to buy and sit on vacant properties, just to drive up costs. We’re not targeting the people with two houses, we’re targeting the people with two hundred.

    After those two allowed properties, taxes increase at a scale, so nobody will want to sit on dozens of homes for long periods of time. And (here’s the important part!) if an owned house is vacant for more than 4 months (120 days) in the calendar year, the taxes on it skyrocket. Hell, make it exponential. This Vacant Property tax should fucking hurt. It should be the thing that keeps Zillow executives awake at night. This will encourage people/companies to sell or rent their vacant houses, instead of sitting on them indefinitely and passing costs onto the few people who they’re renting to. And that “owned property” count used for the property tax calculation should also include residential properties owned by subsidiary companies, shell corporations, etc… Don’t allow companies to spin up a thousand shell corps just to hold two properties each.

    This will drive down purchase prices and rent prices, because it would be financially smarter to have a cheap renter when compared to paying the exorbitant taxes on a vacant property.

    And then take the funds collected from these additional property taxes, and put it towards firsttime homebuyer incentives, rent assistance programs, homeless/displaced/battered/etc shelter funding, etc…

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  • [–] 19 points 2 months ago (5 children)

    There is no reason any single family home to be owned by a corporation. Just ban that entirely. Companies can own apartment complexes, but they also need to be required to provide a percentage of “affordable” units that are capped at 1/4th of the states minimum wage.

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  • [–] 11 points 2 months ago (2 children)

    Even better idea: Companies owning homes must be non-profits with publicly visible finances.

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  • [–] 1 point 2 months ago (1 child)

    Do you mind sharing why this might be a better idea? I’ve seen pretty scummy non profits.

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  • [–] 1 point 2 months ago

    Scummy non-profit with publicly available finances tend to get under media/political fire pretty quick when they are providing basic services. If you have an actually functioning democracy (aka not the US) or large enough masses on the street (aka also not the US, but mostly not because people don't care; they are struggling too much to make ends meet, but have just enough to keep them content - but i see this balance slowly slipping) these things can be fixed.

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  • [–] 1 point 2 months ago (1 child)

    Why the exception for apartment complexes? Just buy and sell the units as condos.

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  • [–] 1 point 2 months ago

    Because I do think there is value in mid term, affordable, rentals. And coordinating that with a bunch of individually owned units and ensuring that some of them remain affordable seems like a near impossibility.

    Might also be nostalgia for earlier days when not every apartment advertised “luxury units” and renting was way cheaper than buying. It’s what kids just out of high school did, or recent divorcees while they got back in their feet financially. Some oriole even preferred it so they didn’t have the responsibility of owning. Companies used to be decent stewards of multi family housing, I’m probably over optimistic that they could be again.

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  • [–] 1 point 2 months ago

    I don't get how vacant property tax works with two houses, if I have two there is no way I can live in both for longer than 4 months. am bad at math, that'll only start being a problem from 3 houses

    And some summer houses where I'm from are built in such a way that you will really struggle to live there outside the season. I'm not sure this should be universally applicable especially in case of house used for living in it, and not renting out

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  • [–] 1 point 2 months ago

    This would be great, but it's not feasible as described. Property taxes are assessed against the property, not the owner. The county can determine whether someone has paid the tax on a particular property, but they are greatly restricted on details about the owner of that property. There is no reliable mechanism to determine how many properties a single person owns. A county auditor would be able to determine how many properties you own in that county, but the auditor of Alameda County in California has no conclusive way of knowing if you also own property in Anne Arundel County in Maryland.

    The county auditor does have access to your income tax records, drivers license records, etc. They can easily and reliably determine your claimed county of residence when you pay your tax bill.

    If you were to claim residence in Anne Arundel, the Alameda auditor could determine that you do not qualify for an owner-occupant credit available only to residents of Alameda County.

    We already have "homestead exemption" and "second home" property taxes in most of the country. These give some small credits or exemptions for various purposes for the property where a homeowner resides. What we need to do is expand the scope of these owner-occupant exemptions. They need to automatically match future property tax hikes, so owner occupants are explicitly protected against them.

    And then we increase the property tax annually until the owner occupancy rate is above 85%. We run it through the fucking moon, actual homeowners don't see any increase. Corporate landlords will be fighting tooth and nail to issue land contracts and purchase agreements rather than leases.

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  • [–] 37 points 2 months ago (2 children)

    I firmly believe every home after your second (let retired people have their cabins) should be taxed exponentially.

    The third home should be taxed so heavily that it's prohibitive, and the fourth should be taxed so highly that it's impossible to profit off of.

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  • [–] 15 points 2 months ago

    Should be the same concept with rental units. Taxes should go up exponentially for every unit you own over a certain limit. Of course if there's is a limit to how many homes or units a person can own, they will just create thousands of small corporations to own them.

    Have to ban corporate ownership of residential property as well or some other fix.

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  • [–] 34 points 2 months ago (1 child)

    If only the people that would make these laws were not the ones profiting from it.

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  • [–] 33 points 2 months ago* (2 children)

    Everyone dances around the fact that the government should be building low income housing themselves. We should not be begging the for profit house building industry to fix the problem they've made.

    How Britain almost solved the housing crisis

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  • [–] 29 points 2 months ago (4 children)

    Some places do this. I have heard a few Welsh areas have gone for much higher council tax (approximate equivalent to a shitty property tax) on second homes. They are allowed to charge up to 4x the normal rate.

    If you are renting it out as a holiday rental you can be exempt from the normal council tax but they are now requiring you to actually rent it out. It must be available for at least 252 days of the year and actually used for at least 182 days so you can't just set rent to unaffordable amounts.

    Hearing the crying about it has been great.

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  • [–] 8 points 2 months ago (3 children)

    Nice.
    This gives me an idea.

    Additional tax for rooms marked as "for rent", but going unrented for enough part of the year.
    Calculation will also take into account recent evictions.

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  • [–] 5 points 2 months ago (2 children)

    I've had a similar idea for a while. There should be a fine/tax for unrented properties proportional to the amount being asked for rent. Any money collected from this goes to housing support for low-income renters.

    This creates a market incentive to lower rents if you can't get someone in a unit.

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  • [–] 25 points 2 months ago

    Hear me out: we also count all the subsidiaries company as the same entity of the owner company, now we have less exploits too

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  • [–] 24 points 2 months ago (3 children)

    This is why wealth tax is so elegant. It doesn’t matter if you own a bunch of houses personally, or you own shares of a company that own a bunch of houses, or you use the shares as collateral to borrow a bunch of money; your total wealth is the same. There is no way get around it :3

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  • [–] 3 points 2 months ago (1 child)

    Wealth taxes are necessary, but with offshoring and hiding accounts, I'd say they're bureaucratically complicated rather than elegant.

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  • [–] 17 points 2 months ago (1 child)

    I'd go further (current flat rate)^(number of houses owned -1)

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  • [+] 16 points 2 months ago (1 child)
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