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I rented a car, and within hours, my driver's license was for sale (arstechnica.com)
submitted 2 months ago by to c/technology@lemmy.world
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[–] 532 points 2 months ago (102 children)

But don't forget guys, uploading your government IDs to any old fucking website to prove your age is very safe and protects children. There's no way this could go wrong and everyone in the supply chain is very trustworthy

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  • [+] -91 points 2 months ago (101 children)

    The QR/one time code way makes a lot more sense and avoids this issue

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  • [–] 167 points 2 months ago (70 children)

    How about we just don’t suck the dicks of authoritarian wannabe dipshits that have proven they can’t secure any information properly and can’t run any institution properly?

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  • [+] -43 points 2 months ago (69 children)

    I don't know exactly what you mean, I just think for age gating there's ways that are a lot better

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  • [–] 85 points 2 months ago (10 children)

    Like parents actually parenting and activating the built in restrictions for their children's devices?

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  • [+] -51 points 2 months ago (8 children)

    It's probably more effective done at the other end. It's not like you can make parents parent

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  • [–] 30 points 2 months ago (7 children)

    You actually can, it’s called regulations, policies and enforcement. Don’t vaccinate your crotch fruit? Cool, they can’t go to public school, and you just won a visit from child welfare

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  • [+] -17 points 2 months ago (6 children)

    It's not like we don't have regulations, policies and (some) enforcement. But there's still dogshit parents. And for this kind of thing, how would you even enforce it?

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  • [–] 5 points 2 months ago (3 children)

    Why do we need to? What's the risk, some unsupervised kid with neglectful parents might see porn? Oh man, just imagine the world-ending consequences if that happened!

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  • [–] -2 points 2 months ago (2 children)

    I was thinking gambling but porn is illegal to buy for under 18-yo in some places so they might use the age gating for that too

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  • [–] 3 points 2 months ago (1 child)

    That feels an even sillier concern; what is a child going to do on a gambling site without some adult payment method to access services? And if you say "well they can steal their parent's credit card," how would that not equally apply to a parent's photo ID or anything else necessary for age-verification?

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  • [–] 0 points 2 months ago

    Where I live a lot of kids have bank accounts, but of course it would be silly to put a lot of money there. But can't you deposit cash into bitcoin things and use them for payments or gift cards? I've seen those on some gambling sites.

    And if you say “well they can steal their parent’s credit card,” how would that not equally apply to a parent’s photo ID or anything else necessary for age-verification?

    Photo ID apparently needs a face scan too, it's not enough to just have the ID. Then you get into what if they steal the ID, fool their parents and whatnot which... I don't think that's as much of a concern tbh

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  • [–] 3 points 2 months ago (1 child)

    by denying childcare benefits, and giving a visit from child welfare.

    the school should start the procedure when they see the kid scrolling social media regularly, or if the kid regularly says they want their phone (when somehow taken away) as that means they are already kinda addicted to it. child welfare investigates whether the suspicions are true, initiates denying benefits, and communicates directly with the parents being willing to support them improving the situation, including offering free assistance from child's psychologist. then, the point becomes not denying benefits, but recognizing that they have little time to figure it out themselves, and giving all the help they need.

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  • [–] 44 points 2 months ago (28 children)

    That’s the issue. We don’t need nanny’s to age gate us on the internet. All it does is create a very short path to removing anonymity on the internet

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  • [+] -33 points 2 months ago (27 children)

    Don't mind some age gating tbh. It would have to be pretty convenient and anonymous though.

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  • [–] 32 points 2 months ago (24 children)

    How do you imagine it will be anonymous? Or convenient, for that matter.

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  • [+] -12 points 2 months ago (8 children)

    Easy. You set the age in the os (or age range) per system account.

    Apps can then request this and allow/ deny based on it. Requires admin / sudo to update age range.

    No need for 3rd parties, id or anything else.

    If parents are concerned about it they can implement it easily. If not, they can ignore it.

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  • [–] 14 points 2 months ago (2 children)

    So any unchecked web/app developer can see if a child is visiting their site? No thanks. This will make children less safe.

    I will VPN to mars before I upload my ID, or that of my child for that matter. Not a chance in hell.

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  • [–] 2 points 2 months ago (3 children)

    But it needs to be verified there first in some way, and then services will need to somehow verify that your device properly verified it.

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  • [–] 5 points 2 months ago*

    And which of those systems are secure themselves, oses and their manufacturers - the answer is none. None are secure enough to trust that private information on mandatory verification systems. Not the base systems nor any systems that would share any approval tokens.

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  • [+] -17 points 2 months ago* (14 children)

    Well the implementation is going to be that you prove your age to the id app that only saves the info that you're over 18. Then the id app just tells that info to the website (or app or whatever I guess). So the site doesn't know who is trying to prove their age or even what their age is, just that they're over 18.

    It would be nice to have that sort of quick and easy app for verifying your personal information too. I don't think we have one where I live. We always use a bank for that and that's more hassle than I'd like

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  • [–] 10 points 2 months ago (13 children)

    And how would that app verify you've given your actual age? Now you need to deanonymize yourself to that app and while random sites might not know who you are the app does and the app also knows every site you visit (that requests your age).

    So no, that's no longer anonymous. In practice that's just your government (as that's the most likely source of authority to verify your age) tracking what you're doing on the web. Is that really preferable to parents parenting their children?

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  • [–] -1 points 2 months ago* (4 children)

    The app is from the government and open source at every endpoint. You can see for yourself that it doesn’t track activity.

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  • [–] 2 points 2 months ago (2 children)

    the government would never do that

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  • [–] 0 points 2 months ago

    I'd be more worried if the apps were closed source but the ones I've heard about that are making an actual implementation of the protocol are open source so you can see everything it is doing, who it is contacting etc

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  • [–] 1 point 2 months ago

    if you can even verify it, unlike the proposed EU identity app that adds in all the obfuscation, and anti-debugging DRM of the world, also denying operation on any device and operating system not directly made by one of the two tech monopolies in the field.

    but that is not only what you should worry about. even with an actually auditable app, they just change it one day and practically nobody bats an eye. the common person can not and will not check anything, it updates automatically and thry know nothing. if they don't comply, they are immediately excluded from half the world. the thing is auditability is a nice plus, but doesn't actually matter, because it requires a fully benevolent government. if they want to push through a change, they can roll it out in 5 minutes across the whole country and no businesses can defy it.

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  • [–] -4 points 2 months ago (7 children)

    You can use a driver's license or your bank. Different methods to verify it to the app. After verification, the app won't save the info, just the knowledge that you're over 18.

    the app also knows every site you visit (that requests your age)

    Not much of a worry locally. Disabling history is probably included in this (sort of porn mode/incognito, same as your browser). The info isn't much use locally anyway

    In practice that’s just your government (as that’s the most likely source of authority to verify your age) tracking what you’re doing on the web.

    Government knows you've verified the app but they don't know what you're using the app for, it doesn't have phone home. Your app is giving the site a generated cryptographic key, the site compares that to see if it is a valid key and then accepts it. The key doesn't carry your personal info with it, so the central db doesn't know who is being asked about, just whether the key is valid (so someone is 18+)

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  • [–] 4 points 2 months ago* (6 children)

    Now you've got a system without oversight. A child just needs an adult key and everything gets bypassed. And before you think it won't be done, I know from my childhood children who used their older sibling identification to buy alcohol without the older sibling even knowing it was being done. Kids are creative and they will find a way to bypass something without oversight. That arguably will put them in even greater danger because while kids are creative they're not that great at assessing dangers. For example a bad actor could give keys to kids and then use that same key as blackmail to control them.

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  • [–] -3 points 2 months ago (5 children)

    The child would need to get the app and have it verified (id and face scan, bank logins).

    I know kids steal or fake ids but yeah not a reason imo to not card people hah

    a bad actor could give keys to kids and then use that same key as blackmail to control them.

    How would that work, be around to verify with the app or something?

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  • [–] 3 points 2 months ago (4 children)

    I know kids steal or fake ids but yeah not a reason imo to not card people hah

    This whole post exists because the need to card people and then use that card to verify that person and how it opens up the door for your identifiable information getting stolen.

    The child would need to get the app and have it verified (id and face scan, bank logins).

    How would that work, be around to verify with the app or something?

    The way your proposed solution works is that the verification process is asynchronous. The government verifies the identity in the app and then the app is used to verify identity elsewhere. Those are two separate steps that don't happen in succession. There's bound to be some time between the two steps if for no other reason than for the government to push the new key into third party databases (because if it uses the pull method then you've reintroduced government tracking. That means there's a timeframe where person A verifies themselves, gives the key to person B and then person B uses the key until it expires. Now you need to start building in safeguards to prevent keys from leaking from within the app.

    I'll ask a counter-question since my point was is it really preferable to parents parenting. How complex (which increases how costly the development will be) and how inconvenient does it have to get for you to consider that perhaps parenting is a better solution? Because I'll also add this, this solution doesn't prevent "bad parenting" because a bad parent can just identify themselves and let children use their identification to bypass whatever the kids want to bypass.

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  • [–] -1 points 2 months ago (2 children)

    I'm against sending pictures of your card. Just showing your card to a shopkeeper, that's fine imo.

    I don't think there being a delay once you originally setup the app is a big issue or takes more than a few minutes max. You do that first time and then your phone is generating the key based on the master key, the site confirms the key with the central server. That sort of handshake or what it is called happens almost instantly.

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  • [–] 17 points 2 months ago (16 children)

    Age gating is bad itself.

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  • [–] 3 points 2 months ago (2 children)

    Should supermarkets just sell alcohol to 10 year olds?

    I think there are plenty of places where age gating makes sense as a concept, it really is mainly the data security that's an issue. The other is that it should be somewhat circumventable, which I think mainly requires it not being tied to identity (so much like you could get someone older to buy you alcohol you could get someone else to verify your age).

    What I think is bad is age gating social media instead of doing something about how harmful it is because clearly adults are not immune and all that does is make it harder for children to get important information.

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  • [–] 1 point 2 months ago

    I'm not talking about that... I agree that you can't sell alcohol, or cigars, or anything like tat, to children.

    But there's a difference between that and online content.

    I didn't said age gating was bad in alll contexts, but that age gating information, media and content is bad.

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  • [+] -14 points 2 months ago (12 children)

    Eh I don't mind. Not all stuff is for kids.

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  • [–] 10 points 2 months ago* (3 children)

    Hell naw, that's an arbitrary take. There's no "child things" or "adult things", nor "male things" or "female things", just things, and the "male"/"female"/"child"/"adult" is an arbitary tag we put on them.

    And even if there are some things that aren't so good for the child to see, the only correct way to address that is educating them, guiding them, listening to them and, over all, treating them as humans, the "we need to block this to children" is totally adultist.

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  • [–] -5 points 2 months ago (2 children)

    And even if there are some things that aren’t so good for the child to see

    That's what people mean by "not all stuff is for kids"

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  • [–] 5 points 2 months ago (1 child)

    No, "not all stuff is for kids" means "kids should never watch this", and what I'm saying is "kids can see this with the appropiate tutoring and supervision", these are two really distinct things.

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  • [–] 5 points 2 months ago (5 children)

    Maybe, but that doesn't matter since automated age verification doesn't work. Kids always figure out ways to bypass it, and it snares unlucky adults all the time.

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  • [–] 1 point 2 months ago (4 children)

    We have carding, same issue with that but imo it's alright

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  • [–] 1 point 2 months ago (3 children)

    Carding as in credit card theft? Or carding as in a bouncer checking someone's ID at the door?

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  • [–] 1 point 2 months ago (2 children)

    The latter, someone asking to see your id to verify that you're over 18

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  • [–] 1 point 2 months ago (1 child)

    Except this digital bouncer can memorize every ID it sees. It can reproduce them perfectly for someone else to see. In fact, there's no realistic way for this bouncer to ever forget an ID it has seen.

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  • [–] 6 points 2 months ago (11 children)

    I think no ASL covers it for the Internet. Going against the most basic rule is kind of ridiculous.

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  • [+] -14 points 2 months ago (10 children)

    If it's going to be implemented imo it's better to do with a privacy respecting centralized fashion than sending your id pics all over the place

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  • [–] 18 points 2 months ago (9 children)

    You can't violate and protect privacy at the same time.

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  • [+] -13 points 2 months ago (8 children)

    You can protect the identity and all other info of the person than if they're over 18 or not. I think that's a lot better than the other ways sites are now using.

    Unless you think it of just as bad because a site knowing if you're 18+ is a violation of privacy, so might as well give them everything haha

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  • [–] 14 points 2 months ago* (7 children)

    Your arguing for the elimination of privacy as a solution to privacy.

    You are naive if you think this is anything other than a demand from advertisers to ensure it is human being advertised to and not a bot.

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  • [+] -6 points 2 months ago* (6 children)

    I don't think you understand the situation. They're already doing the id verification. They're not going to stop with that. I'd much prefer telling a site I'm 18+ than having to send in photos of my id to every random website out there. 🤷‍♂️

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  • [–] 11 points 2 months ago (5 children)

    They are not going to stop it with people like you rolling over. Pathetic, but I guess you can pretend there is a silver lining.

    Oh wait, that silver lining is apparently you bending over, dropping trow, spreading those cheeks and shouting, "is that wide enough!"

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  • [–] -4 points 2 months ago (4 children)

    That's very nice but you could still have your fight about the thing while having a much better system in place. Then you get your fight against it and everyone gets less of their info out there.

    It's just a horrid system, sending pictures of your id with all your info on it, to random sites

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  • [–] 8 points 2 months ago (3 children)

    I have already said I won't be using any site requiring this unless there is a work around. I will not make advertisers lives easier. Fuck them.

    While I am generally inclined to pick the lesser of two evils, not in this case. So while you are not wrong about a centralized system being less problematic, I personally cannot accept it. I gave up Meta, Zombie Twitter, Reddit, etc already.

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  • [–] -4 points 2 months ago (2 children)

    I think even without sending pics of you id to random sites you can see the benefit of a system where the only info being shared is "18+ yes/no". As many people won't be fucked over by data leaks at least

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  • [–] 23 points 2 months ago (24 children)

    No. Fuck off

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  • [+] -20 points 2 months ago (23 children)

    They're already doing the verification and it's not going away. I definitely prefer a better way to do it

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  • [–] 41 points 2 months ago (22 children)

    That "it's not going away" attitude is the fucking problem...

    We should fucking fight it, either by good or by bad, because that defeatism is what they want, they want us to think that TINA, then, little by little, force ourselves to do things that at first would seem unacceptable to us.

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  • [+] -17 points 2 months ago (20 children)

    But in this case there's already a lot worse system in place. Why not get a better system while also fighting the verification thing?

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  • [–] 17 points 2 months ago (3 children)

    No, get rid of the bad system and be done with it. No compromise. This isn't something that needs to exist at all.

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  • [–] -4 points 2 months ago (2 children)

    I sincerely wish you luck in your endeavor, but I'm not very optimistic about it so in the meanwhile, better system would be better

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  • [–] 11 points 2 months ago (7 children)

    Aren't you tired begging for crumbs?

    I want a ten course dinner with hookers and blow. Nothing less will do.

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  • [–] -1 points 2 months ago* (6 children)

    I mean I'd rather get crumbs than nothing? lol

    Just seems pragmatic to me

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  • [–] 1 point 2 months ago (5 children)

    Begging for crumbs does NOT mean getting crumbs.

    Usually when you beg for crumbs the power brokers understand you to be an inwardly defeated person and they spit you in the face instead of negotiating with you.

    This is not about getting.

    This is about what you aim for to begin with.

    If you go to a shooting range and delibarately aim for a 1 instead of for a 10 it does not make you more likely to hit a 1. It makes no sense to sabotage your own aim before you even squeeze the trigger.

    You think if your aim is modest, the powers that be will take pity on you? What a foolish notion.

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  • [–] 0 points 2 months ago (4 children)

    I'm getting the id system I was hoping for though. I'm getting my crumbs.

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  • [–] 1 point 2 months ago* (3 children)

    I'm getting the id system I was hoping for though. I'm getting my crumbs.

    If you are satisfied, why the pro-crumb advocacy here?

    No, no, no, you are trying to persuade people here to settle for crumbs. That means your agenda has either not been achieved, or is on a shaky ground. Which explains the work you are doing.

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  • [–] 7 points 2 months ago (3 children)

    The better system is no system

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  • [–] 0 points 2 months ago (2 children)

    Wouldn't that be the best system? This system is a lot better but better just means better than the other thing

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  • [–] 1 point 2 months ago (1 child)

    let me correct you. this system is slightly better. the word you were looking for is slightly.

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  • [–] 0 points 2 months ago*

    Slightly better is still better, but imo a site knowing just an age range (18+) of someone they don't know compared to them having a picture of my id with all my info (name, dob, social security number, face, all that) is a lot, a lot better imo

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