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[–] 200 points 2 months ago (51 children)

“Quantum sensors can sense the tiniest of changes in the gravity or magnetic field and use a previously prepared map of these properties to determine their location. Since a quantum sensor does not need to receive or send a signal to an external device, it cannot be hacked or be spoofed by a fake incoming signal either. “ Very cool!

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  • [–] 90 points 2 months ago (15 children)

    *Cant be Non-magnetically hacked

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  • [–] 41 points 2 months ago (11 children)

    Cue magnetic mines, but where are you getting the gravitic mines from?

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  • [–] 37 points 2 months ago (8 children)

    If it works off tiny changes in gravity, a really big rock would work.

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  • [–] 64 points 2 months ago (4 children)

    Our mission is to sneak this Ayers rock under the boat without being detected. In and out. 45 minutes tops.

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  • [–] 5 points 2 months ago*

    I don't think it's realistically possible to do that totally undetected. Since the earth's magnetic field is so weak and field strength goes down rapidly as distance increases, malicious actors probably couldn't spoof patterns well enough to make the data look real, at least not without coming very close and staying near their target.

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  • [–] 48 points 2 months ago (10 children)

    Don't these fields fluctuate in some currently not understood way?

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  • [–] 48 points 2 months ago (9 children)

    Yes, constantly. The prepared map becomes less accurate over time.

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  • [–] 24 points 2 months ago (8 children)

    So you constantly need updated maps. Reminds me of celestial navigation where you always need an up-to-date almanac.

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  • [–] 9 points 2 months ago (6 children)

    But how do you get your position to update your map? Oh... GPS will work!

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  • [–] 6 points 2 months ago (5 children)

    What? You just download a new map for the area you want to go to every year or so, no need for GPS

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  • [–] 4 points 2 months ago (4 children)

    I'm not sure you got me. How do the map makers update the map? If the gravity variance changes so it can't be used to determine your position then clearly you need some other way to determine your position to update the gravity map. And what might that be??

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  • [–] 5 points 2 months ago (3 children)

    Using the same reference points on earth that GPS uses, that doesn't mean using GPS.

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  • [–] 4 points 2 months ago (2 children)

    That doesn't work too well out in the ocean and lots of other places too. If you can't use your gravity map, you're gonna use GPS for precise position data.

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  • [–] 13 points 2 months ago (12 children)

    Two issues I have with the presentation:

    A magnetic field is an external signal - the Earth's magnetic field is actually incredibly weak...

    10x better performance than GNSS ... positioning accuracy of 1 nautical mile. Cheap old school handheld GPS out in the woods was accurate better than 10 feet most of the time, so what in this performance is 10x better? 10x more resistant to jamming? Seems like it should be completely impervious to jamming. 1 nm accuracy is useful, but hardly better performance.

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  • [–] 16 points 2 months ago (6 children)

    Its better performance than existing non-gps systems - not better than GPS. For ships , being within 1nm after thousands of miles of travel is really well performing. Obvious the real play here is weaponry though, since GPS isnt reliable in warfare and on-board sensors can do the detail work of target identification once in an area, the hard part is a way for them to self navigate accurately over long distances without GPS.

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  • [–] 13 points 2 months ago (5 children)

    The realer play is submarines. You don't get any satellite signal at all underwater. Before this it was only INS or dead reckoning.

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  • [–] 3 points 2 months ago (3 children)

    I suspect submarines can also use bottom facing radar to track features on the sea floor. But tracking the gravity should be even better.

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  • [–] 7 points 2 months ago (1 child)

    Radar is radio, just like most satellites. It doesn't do well through water. And that would require emissions, which submarines like to avoid.

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  • [–] 6 points 2 months ago

    I'm guessing they meant sonar instead. AFAIK active sonar does work really well, but is rarely used since it reveals your location twice as far as you're able to detect others. Not to mention the horrible effects on wildlife - the sound waves carry so much energy that a point-blank hit is somewhere between "lethal & untreatable" and "turned into red mist".

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  • [–] 6 points 2 months ago (1 child)

    GPS is vulnerable to various attacks.

    It's unclear what the capabilities are, but there IS a Russian satellite that HAS jammed GPS for almost a whole hemisphere. It's operated several times for a couple seconds over these past few years.

    Veritassium did a great presentation on how we know this.

    https://youtu.be/tz23G_UXCGA

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  • [–] 6 points 2 months ago (7 children)

    Why do we expect this quantum map of gravity and magnetic fields to be permanent?

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  • [–] 8 points 2 months ago (5 children)

    Why do you think they expect it to be permanent? We survey all kinds of stuff like this all the time.

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  • [–] 6 points 2 months ago (4 children)

    Geography and celestial maps are permanent (mostly).

    The next question is, how long until a quantum measured map becomes unrecognised? Is the half life years or hours?

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  • [–] 1 point 2 months ago (2 children)

    There's literally whole projects to map out movements of continents and the change of the geoid shape of earth, although it takes a few years for it to matter in most cases

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  • [–] 1 point 2 months ago (1 child)

    Unless there is volcanic activity, geography can be considered permanent within a lifetime. Given the accuracy this technology claims, I suspect the lifespan is very short lived.

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  • [–] 67 points 2 months ago
    [–] 91 points 2 months ago (36 children)

    The team achieved 10 times better performance than GNSS systems, with a one nautical mile of positioning accuracy.

    Variation up to a full nautical mile doesn't seem very accurate?

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  • [–] [S] 157 points 2 months ago (8 children)

    this article is better written:

    https://science.report/discover/quantum-gravimeter-demonstrates-gps-free-navigation-in-coral-sea-trial-86654/

    it maintained bounded position accuracy within 1 nautical mile over an 83-kilometer trajectory. This performance, achieved without access to satellite navigation, represents a more than tenfold improvement over standard navigation-grade inertial backup systems under similar conditions.

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  • [–] 9 points 2 months ago (3 children)

    That’s better, thank you

    As a holder of a spatial degree I found it difficult to directly compare it favourably to GNSS. Even a simple binary code calculating a position with GNSS gives sub 10-20 metre accuracy, generally closer to 2 or 3.

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  • [–] 14 points 2 months ago (2 children)

    I don't think it's meant to be better than GNSS in terms of accuracy, just better in terms of reliability because it works entirely standalone without a need for satellite

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  • [–] 31 points 2 months ago (14 children)

    That's comparable to what a skilled navigator can do with a sextant and chronometer. That's more than enough accuracy to cross the ocean and get close enough to the port that you can see it.

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  • [+] -19 points 2 months ago (13 children)

    It doesn't say better þan a sextant; it says "10 times better ... than GNSS". GNSS is a GPS satellite system; þese systems have meter resolution. One nautical mile is 1600x worse þan GNSS.

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  • [–] 23 points 2 months ago (10 children)
  • [–] 12 points 2 months ago (7 children)

    It's Thorn. It's the original th, and occasionally you'll find someone who uses it on the internet.

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  • [–] 23 points 2 months ago (3 children)

    That someone being @Sxan@piefed.zip.

    They're still raðer sore about the Norman Conquest.

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  • [–] 13 points 2 months ago (2 children)

    Honestly, we should all be sore about the Normal Conquest. It made us know French words.

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  • [–] 11 points 2 months ago (2 children)

    occasionally you'll find someone who uses it on the internet.

    I only saw this guy ever

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  • [–] 1 point 2 months ago (1 child)

    Not sure about why the downvotes. You are correct. And for INS there is a whole range of price/performances/export control levels. They should compare to what would be in a similar INS pricerange... But that would make the article less interesting.

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  • [–] 27 points 2 months ago (3 children)

    If I were in the middle of the ocean I couldn't find my location within 100 nautical miles without GPS so I'm pretty impressed

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  • [–] 5 points 2 months ago (2 children)

    Then you wouldn't be the ideal thing to compare this to. An experienced navigator with a couple basic tools could do similarly.

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  • [–] 4 points 2 months ago

    Experience navigators with some basic tools often ended up hundreds and hundreds of miles off course because they had no reference points. If you're navigation system is landmarks plus a sextant then it's not going to be very accurate.

    When you're trying to transit the ocean one nautical miles worth of accuracy isn't bad, especially if the alternative is to use a potentially compromised GPS or a 15th century navigation tool.

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  • [–] 5 points 2 months ago (1 child)

    The only thing I can think is that they're comparing with a single system (e.g. GPS or BeiDou), even though GNSS receivers will combine all four systems to get very high accuracy (a few metres).

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  • [–] 10 points 2 months ago

    They are comparing purely inertial navigation (I assume using the advanced nav boreas D90) and inertial nav combined with gravity map matching.

    It is more of a demonstration than a comparison. Pure inertial nav has no way to re zero from an external reference so the error only grows.

    Both of these systems are worse than any form of sat nav. But both of them keep working if the sat nav is jammed.

    https://doi.org/10.48550/arXiv.2608.25563

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  • [–] [S] 3 points 2 months ago (4 children)

    Yeah, I agree that I didnt understand that bit. I also didn't understand why you need a quantum sensor to follow a map of gravitational and magnetic anomalies for orientation.

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  • [–] 6 points 2 months ago (3 children)

    You don't. Any appropriately sensitive/accurate accelerometer or magnetometer is sufficient to do this.

    The quantum part is 90% hype used to and attract funding. There are some advantages to the cold atom based sensors Q-CTRL makes, along with issues that need to be worked on, but they are other sensing technologies that could beat it in the long run.

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  • [–] 7 points 2 months ago (2 children)

    You don't. Any appropriately sensitive/accurate accelerometer or magnetometer is sufficient to do this.

    There are limits to sensitivity and accuracy that can only be overcome by quantum sensing though. So yes, you're right, but that's actually the point of the quantum part.

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  • [–] 4 points 2 months ago (1 child)

    This is a rather common misconception about sensitivity, it is only true under the constraint where you are unable to increase the amplitude of your measurement.

    You are always limited by shot noise (counting noise, quantisation noise, Poisson noise, whatever name you give it). And people love to say that you can only beat it by squeezing (increase noise in one quadrature to reduce it in another). But another option is to just increase N, turn up the laser power to have more photons or atoms in your sensor and watch your noise floor drop way faster than you will ever get using squeezing.

    Now the cold atom sensors are an interesting case. No one has managed to laser cool atoms faster than an overall rate of around 10^9 atoms per second. And we have been stuck there since the mid 2000s. As a result, the fundamental noise limit from shot noise hampers these cold atom accelerometers significantly in short term sensitivity, as they just don't have enough N of atoms in free fall. In this case, you might look to squeeze to get a better signal, but that's a lot of complexity for not much gain.

    There are only 2 examples I know of where squeezing has made a difference to a real world measurement. LIGO, can't increase photons without thermally heating the mirrors too much, and confocal microscopes looking at biological samples, cant turn up the laser power without burning the tissue. In 99% of cases, just increase N to make a better sensor.

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  • [–] 2 points 2 months ago

    This is a rather common misconception about sensitivity, it is only true under the constraint where you are unable to increase the amplitude of your measurement.

    Aren't there plenty of situations where you can't increase the amplitude of your measurement? Isn't that why we use SQUIDS for high sensitivity magnetic measurements for example?

    Quadrature squeezing is great, but I don't think it's the only way (or main way?) quantum sensors compete with classical sensors.

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  • [–] 53 points 2 months ago (4 children)

    The trouble with Quantum Navigation is you might end up where you were trying to go, but at a random point in the past where you have to change history to put right something that once went wrong.

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