AI has been helpful for my job, sure, but the cost in terms of societal damage is so great it makes me wish AI were never created.
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I was talking about roof sheathing with the latest chat gpt.
It was confident the joists should go above the sheathing.
I work in construction and so far I must admit that I have no idea what the hype is about.
But I have decades of experience, meaning I don't know shit about anything BUT I know how to quickly find usefull information in the codes or in pertinents books.
If I were younger I might have fallen into the trap. If so I would probably be in jail by now, because in my tests I've seen LLM be dangerously wrong.
LLMs seem to be pretty bad at home improvement sort of questions in my experience. I suspect they don’t have a team of carpenters they use to RL the models, like they do for software engineers, etc
Software is easier because you can basically 'inspect the house' and the 'home inspector' via software.
Harder to do that with a house. Also a lot of different rules based on locality.
Reminder it doesn't know anything.
It is just mimicking text it has been programmed for.
For it to be "good" at mimicking home improvement, it's source needed to be full of home improvement talk. The best carpenters, plumbers, whatever aren't on reddit, or wherever talking shop. They're working, or making OSHA jokes at the bar.
How do people work? Are there ones born knowing how to use a hacksaw?
Mostly tradies are learning by hands-on apprenticeship with a master. All that discussion is not on the internet.
How did anyone ever learn anything before chatgpt?
In other words, corporate leadership is starting from the premise that AI has (or will) radically change the business, and they're working backwards from that premise to find the evidence to support this article of faith.
Sounds familiar. The proof-of-work blockchain scheme which was the fad a while ago is also often described as a solution in search of a problem.
I'm glad you specifically pointed out proof-of-work blockchains.
They're very inefficient (economically and ecologically) by design. In almost all cases this design isn't warranted.
Alas there are other designs and while most of them are rubbish as well, a few ones are doing things quite right.
I hope that just like other schemes than proof-of-work were thought of regarding blockchains, there will be AI models that are way, way more efficient and ideally can be run locally - for those cases that can use AI...
Wasn't Nano predicated on those lines? I remember reading transactions could be done locally, even off-line, validated beetween the parts and only later added to the global ledger.
Nano uses "proof of stake" instead of proof of work to decide the order of transactions, and who receives block rewards.
The main problem with PoS is that it's essentially the same as Federal Reserve bonds: all the new money goes towards people with extra money to freeze. This is part of why inequality has spiraled out of control since the Nixon Shock. Proof of work literally burns most of the profits because of difficulty adjustment.
A more specific problem with Nano (formerly RaiBlocks) is that the entire supply was centrally issued, with a pinky promise from this private organization that they only issued coins by CAPTCHA. If they were lying, then they could have issued 51% of the supply to themselves for permanent control. The only way we'd be able to detect it is if the price kept going down for years.
That requires a global ledger. Blockchain is an appallingly bad way to implement one.
What I understood then was that the local ledger of a given user of the coin would authorize and register the transactions done on/off the recorded balance and, when network available, would broadcast such transactions to the global ledger.
The global ledger was the total sum of transactions, not imperatively required to authorize transaction by transaction.
Funny, that you even know about Nano!
...it's one of the often overlooked projects because it doesn't have a ton of fuck-off-money and instead tries to focus on a solid protocol.
Nano has a lot of interesting attributes, but I fail to see how what you describe would work in practice.
If both parties want to make sure there are no shenenigans at play, they need to know about the most recent state of the respective account chains, which essentially requires them to be online for agreeing on said transaction.
But overall Nano is very fast and efficient by design and only a failure in terms of "gainz for Lambo".
As we're here in a thread about AI I should remark that machine-to-machine-payments - in this case: agent-to-agent-payments - would work pretty well with Nano as currency because of the transaction finality (typically less than 1 second) and the feeless nature of transactions.
If AI agents are looking for the most viable way to transfer tiny amounts of value fast and without fees they might find Nano and use it - who knows...
...and just like Nano showed that efficient ways to create digital money are possible I'm hoping for efficient AI models that are economically and ecologically worthwhile.
What I understood then was that in person transactions could be done, as the local ledger of each user would authorize and record operations on and off the available balance and wait until network availability to syncronize with the global record.
Returning to the subject at hand: I can imagine very specialized "AI" being useful for scientifical research, where very knowledgeable people use it as a tool to facilitate processes but are nonetheless capable of reviewing whatever results it produces.
Not gigantic datacenters required for this but small, purpose made and perfected, locally run, even if on higher specifications hardware to do so, but machines built for a given task and purpose. The economic viability on it be damned; it's a tool for research, it is not made to earn money.
To put it bluntly: if you do an offline transaction, you're prone to fraud.
If you expect the senders account chain to have balance x (because that's your offline record for that) and the sender has sent all funds to a different address after you synced that account chain, you receive money that isn't there - kind of like an invalid cheque.
I have no clue how that would work in practice, because to know a random account in advance, you'd have to sync the whole amount of account chains there is (called block lattice in Nano's case).
With a mobile device that's hardly feasible and without a mobile device I don't see how you'd get in contact with people to make such an offline transaction.
That kind of specialized AI is what I imagine to be a use case for locally run AI, too.
After all you don't want to build processes on an AI, where you have zero control over what happens behind the curtains.
That includes feeding potentially sensitive data back to it as well as being unable to control the training data set, its learning, version numbers, etc.
I feel like block chain as a public ledger has found quite a few purposeful uses, and was a solution to a handful of problems most people rarely if ever encounter. Then fake money got involved
The core issue feels like the dead torrent problem.
Its distributed, so it needs to be hosted, by several locations. Which becomes probitive over time as.it becomes huge. Its also massively inefficient for what its trying to do.
At some point, its basically just one server farm somewhere hosting a glorified MySWL database that doubles as a space heater for the entire planet every time you need to add a row.
I was thinking that with legal backing, blockchain could be a good record of ownership for deeds. Like NFTs but for physical property.
The history of ownership and the public visibility are good features there.
Lack of reliable, authoritative attribution of changes and no rollback or compensatory transactions are all dealbreakers.
Yeah who doesn't want a ledger you cannot change, sounds like a good idea. /s
In the case of deeds, i think it is desirable because it gives you an immutable history of ownership.
There are other problems but i don't believe that is one.
Yes, exactly.
Block chain would have been an amazing solution to most democratic vote validation processes.
It can still be used that way. While most people talk about how corrupt politicians enrich themselves with fake currencies, more legal and legitimate uses can still use decentralized ledgers for useful things. Of course these won't make headlines.
There are far better global ledger approaches than blockchain.
I believe you, but can you name one so we can all learn more about the alternatives out there?
SWIFT is the easy one. Fun fact they looked into blockchain at one point and went "yeah, nah"
I thought Swift is currently Block-Chain based. Do you mean this Swift?
Aren't votes meant to be anonymous to avoid retribution?
Isn't the public ledger identifying information to be used by authoritarian violence on every single voter in that case?
Well no, because we don't have a problem that blockchain solves (better than open software, if it must be digital), and there are loads of problems that the blockchain doesn't solve. Like how am I supposed to vote with that thing under no coercion.
I'm not really sure what you're getting at. The blockchain is a good mechanism to maintain a source of truth that is inspectable and verifiable by anyone. It would only serve to certify that official counts can't be tampered with in certain ways.
But it doesn't replace the whole democratic voting process. It doesn't protect against coercive voting, for instance.
My point originally was that blockchain can be of use to us, but tech bros ruined its rep. Same with AI. I've been waiting for routers with ai-powered (really, just machine learning) firewalls that can adapt rules to environments. But instead of that, everyone is obsessed with generative stuff that isnt very good.
Which purposeful uses did you have in mind?
Nothing that a centralized server wouldn't be able to handle better.
Or several other solutions for different use cases. I always remember this article about alternatives: https://gist.github.com/joepie91/a90e21e3d06e1ad924a1bfdfe3c16902
I see a lot of useless people creating a ton of busy work that just becomes an unbearable workload for the people under them. Working in manufacturing environments which (you aren't gonna believe this) are all horrifically understaffed is bad enough. Now i get to watch good workers get buried under Solvace/Fabriq/etc checklists and Leading2Lean/PerformOEE/etc task lists and spreadsheets and meetings to discuss kpis and metrics.
I need a new line of work
Yeah, right. My boss gave me a bunch of risk assessments to read through and let slip that AI had 'helped' produce them. So I said I'd get AI to summarise them. All this vast computing power and climate damage is being used for bullshit.
Person A gives an AI a list of bullet points and instructs it to expand the bullet points into an email.
Person B receives the email and asks AI to summarize it into bullet points.
An ocean of water could have been saved if the Person A had just emailed the bullet points directly, and the information transfer would have been far superior.
Well I wouldn't recommend data & analytics right now, if you treasure your sanity.
Imagine tech debt accumulated over decades absolutely skyrocketing because LLM can generate thousands of lines of SQL or Python that noone understands.
I mean, I'm sure the same applies to all tech sectors and likely worse. I do admit it also helps us fix and uncover some old and buried bugs. It's just not used with any sort of care or long term plan.
Hate to day it, but every industry has turned into that. At least in my anecdotal experience and my network’s anecdotal experience, useless people using AI to create shit that means extra work for others is happening everywhere. Not saying you should stay in manufacturing if you hate it, but just be aware that you probably won’t be leaving that issue behind.
AI is changing everything. Its not a lie, its absolute truth.
The problem is the changes are fuckawful terrible for everyone and everything.
I typed into Google "potatoes pressure cooker" to get a reminder of how long to cook them. The AI told me, and correctly said that I should use the steamer sieve, but also told me to salt the water. The water that would be under the potatoes and that wouldn't touch them.
I asked why, and the AI said that little splashes of salt water from the boiling would land on the surface of the potatoes and salt them gently, that the salt would increase the boiling temperature, and that the vapour would be aromatic.
I pointed out that the amount of salt landing on the surface of the potatoes would be negligible, that the vapour is distilled water in gas form, and that the increase in boiling temperature from salting the water is less than 1°C. The AI said, oh yeah, you're right on all counts. Don't salt the water.
What it has been doing was exactly what an LLM does. It gave me the received wisdom from the internet.
That aligns with what Cory Doctorow was saying here, namely that all the AI successes were from people who already knew what they were doing and could use the AI as a tool. Not from people who had no clue and just let AI do the job.
I use google "ai" in when thrifting for audio gear. Minimum 80% of the time it gets something GLARINGLY wrong. "Oh ho ho! You correctly pointed out that I was completely wrong on all counts! An astute observation! Let me try again but this time give you the CORRECT information."
Exactly. I use AI primarily as a natural-language search engine, when searching for things that can quickly be independently verified. One of the best uses for it is when you know a thing probably exists, but you don't know the name for it. You can describe to the LLM the object or problem in detail, and it will give you a name. You can then take that word and do a non-AI search to instantly confirm if it got it right.
I'll never use an AI for something I can't at least verify without an AI.
I mean, to be fair, that’s a dirt cheap model you’re talking to, and Google is not exactly at the forefront of any tier of model, cheap or otherwise.
It gave me the received wisdom from the internet.
I mean... it gave you the amalgamated wisdom of the internet after a very complex game of telephone.
I really like a song that has intro and outro samples and I wanted to know where they were from, so I googled. Google AI promptly informed me that the song has no samples. Guess that settles that.
My husband was recently trying to find an exact quote from Richard Pryor's character in Lost Highway, so he Googled it.
Google's AI overview said that Richard Pryor was not in Lost Highway and instead gave some suggestions for other films we might be thinking of.
The quote he was trying to remember was, "There's nine people down here, and you can ask seven of them. If you can get that price from one of them, I'll let you ask the other two."
I do potatoes in my instant pot but leave the water in, it just gets absorbed. So the salt is effective in that case. I salt the potatoes themselves and toss them before adding the water, too, so they should get reasonably seasoned.
Also i use soup stock.
Mashed, though.
Salting the water would increase the boiling temperature I guess, but it seems like a waste of salt because that info isn't meaningfully changing the cooking time
Salting the water is relevant when not using a pressure cooker. It makes no sense when you're steaming them in a pressure cooker. AI is a good tool, sometimes. But for everyday tasks, it is irrelevant and often wrong.
That “AI” is a completely dumbed down one with reasoning disabled. Of course it’ll make stuff up.
I use AI as a writing tool, not as a substitute for authorship.
The ideas, intent, perspective, and final judgment are mine. I decide what I want to say, what belongs in the piece, what does not, and whether the finished version accurately represents me. AI may help me organize my thoughts, clarify a sentence, improve the flow, or find wording that better expresses what I already mean. That is not fundamentally different from working with an editor, dictating to a transcriber, or revising a draft after receiving feedback.
What matters is that I review the final work, approve it, and put my name on it. By doing that, I take responsibility for every sentence. If the writing is thoughtful, accurate, and effective, I am responsible for those choices. If it is careless, misleading, generic, or full of slop, that is also my responsibility. Blaming the tool would be an attempt to avoid accountability.
AI does not decide what I believe. It does not decide what I am willing to defend. It does not decide what I publish under my name. I do.
The tool may assist with the writing process, but the authorship comes from intention, judgment, selection, revision, and responsibility. The final work is mine because I chose it, shaped it, approved it, and signed my name to it.
Could you tell me which part of my argument you think is wrong?
You didn't make an argument, you listed your justifications for using plagiaristic genAI as a shortcut instead of doing the actual work yourself.
I did make an argument. My argument is that authorship is grounded in the origination of the ideas and intent, control over what goes into the work, endorsement of the final form, and responsibility for the result. Assistance with the linguistic realization does not, by itself, transfer authorship.
I’ve thought through that position, refined it, and I’m willing to defend it. Calling AI use “plagiaristic” or a “shortcut” doesn’t actually address the argument.
So which part do you reject: that I originated the ideas, that I exercised control over the final work, that I endorsed it, or that I’m responsible for it? And why?
None of "your work" is yours in any meaningful way the second you use a tool that cannot exist without plagiarism therefore any aspect of its contribution immediately forfeits all ownership of the ideas conveyed. Because they're not yours, they're stolen by an inherently plagiaristic tool. Unless you're using a local model trained exclusively on your own writing, none of your AI powered work is in any way yours. Even then it still wouldn't be original or created by you, it would be algorithmic nonsense. You are not a writer if you use an LLM to do the actual writing. Couldn't even write that fuckin response without your gpt slop.
I spent this morning sitting with this exchange, coffee in hand, reading back over what I had written.
I’m not especially interested in responding to the insults. And I’m going to set aside the argument about how AI systems are trained, plagiarism, consent, compensation, and so on. Those are legitimate ethical questions and I share them, but they are a different conversation.
The part that stayed with me was the simpler claim underneath all of that:
"You didn’t write this."
And the more I thought about it, the more I realized that my original answer had blurred together several different things.
I had been treating “writing,” “authorship,” “ownership,” and “responsibility” almost as synonyms.
They aren’t.
You can originate an idea, develop an argument, direct how it is expressed, edit it, approve the final version, and take responsibility for publishing it without necessarily having composed every sentence yourself.
Nickiwest had responded to my original comment and said "That sounds more like the job of an editor than the job of a writer." and that got me thinking about my old work as an art director for a studio.
I could come up with the concept, find references, explain what I wanted, reject drafts, change direction, combine ideas, and go through revision after revision until the finished image expressed what I had in mind.
That was real creative work.
But I still wouldn’t say I drew the picture.
The idea might have been mine. The direction might have been mine. The judgment might have been mine.
The drawing wasn’t.
I think AI creates a similar complication with language.
If I give an LLM a thought and it produces a sentence, then no, I did not necessarily compose that sentence in the ordinary sense.
If I argue with it, reject things, rearrange them, rewrite parts, refine distinctions, change the reasoning, and decide what survives, then I have obviously contributed something substantial. But calling every form of that contribution “writing” may sometimes be too simple.
Sometimes “writer” will be perfectly natural.
Sometimes “editor,” “director,” or simply “AI-assisted” may be more accurate.
What interests me more than the title is what happens during the process.
I can put a half-formed thought into language and look at it from the outside.
Sometimes I read a sentence and realize, that sounds like something I believe, but it goes further than I mean.
Sometimes two ideas I had been treating as the same turn out not to be the same at all.
Sometimes an argument looks convincing in my head and falls apart the moment I see the missing step written down.
Sometimes the model gives me wording I dislike, and figuring out why I dislike it forces me to understand my own position better.
Then I put that thought back in and try again.
The result I am looking for is not better prose, it is a better thought.
That is basically what happened to me this morning.
My original position was that the work was mine because I chose it, shaped it, approved it, put my name on it, and accepted responsibility for it.
I still think responsibility matters enormously. If I publish bad reasoning, false claims, unsupported accusations, or generic slop, I do not get to shrug and say, “The AI wrote it.”
I chose to publish it.
But I no longer think responsibility settles the question of who “wrote” something.
An editor can be responsible for publishing a piece without having written it. An art director can shape an image without having drawn it.
So now I think the more interesting questions are smaller ones.
Who originated the idea?
Who developed the argument?
Who decided what belonged?
Who noticed the mistakes?
Who revised the thinking?
Who directed the expression?
Who actually composed the prose?
Those answers may not always point to the same person, and maybe that is fine.
What I don’t think follows is that the human contribution disappears the moment a machine becomes involved.
My ideas do not disappear. My judgment does not disappear. The things I accept, reject, revise, and ultimately stand behind do not disappear.
But neither do I need to pretend I personally composed every sentence if I didn’t.
I’m comfortable with that distinction.
And I think it leaves me somewhere more interesting than where I started.
What fascinates me about A.I. is the strange process of having a thought, seeing it reflected back, noticing where it fails, and slowly discovering what I actually mean; what I believe.
This reply is a product of that process. I do not care what title we end up giving the result, I enjoyed spending my morning with it.
You didn't write this, an LLM did.
I was reading the initial comment with peer-reviewed publications in mind and it all sounded like standard practice, but then I read yours and was like "oh, are we talking about books now?"
Interesting. When you want to criticize the argument, the words are mine enough to hold me responsible for them. But when I claim responsibility for those same words, suddenly they're not mine.
"I don't write anything but take credit for everything" is a straw man. If you disagree, address what I actually said.
that's bullshit.
"authorship is when i make a few edits and sign my name to slop"
if you have willingly handed over your primary writing tool to a machine (for which there is no real meaning, association, appreciation, or delight in words), it is difficult for me to take your commitment to writing or "authorship" seriously.
I did not say “authorship is when I make a few edits and sign my name to slop.” That is not my argument.
My argument is that authorship is grounded in the origination of the ideas and intent, control over what goes into the work, judgment over how those ideas are expressed, endorsement of the final form, and responsibility for the result. Assistance with the linguistic realization does not, by itself, transfer authorship.
You point out that the machine has no meaning, association, appreciation, or delight in the words. I agree. But I do. That is precisely the distinction I am making. The machine does not know what I mean, care whether it represents me, recognize when an analogy fails, or decide whether an argument is worth defending. I am doing those things.
You seem to be defining “writing” as personally generating the initial sequence of words. Maybe that is where we actually disagree. But that definition cannot simply be assumed and then used to prove that I am not writing. Why should authorship reside specifically in first-pass word generation rather than in the thought, intention, judgment, revision, and control that determine what the final words mean?
That is the argument I am interested in having.
i started to read your response, and then i remembered i can't trust the degree to which you authored it.
i'm not interested.
A sneer is easier than an answer, and certainty is a lovely refuge when you have no intention of defending it.
You accuse me of surrendering thought to a machine, and then, the moment you are asked to justify that accusation, you surrender thought entirely.
How convenient.
With a wave of the hand, every difficult question disappears. You declare the words contaminated by the tool that helped shape them and thereby absolve yourself of any obligation to consider what they actually say.
No examination. No argument. No possibility of correction.
You accuse me of regurgitating the output of a machine, yet what have you offered in return?
A familiar sneer. A borrowed insult. A conclusion retrieved intact from the cupboard of approved contempt.
You recognize the hated object, produce the expected response, and call the reflex thought.
That is the irony you seem determined not to notice.
My argument from the beginning has been that a machine must be tempered by a human mind. It possesses no responsibility for what it produces. Whatever value emerges from its use depends upon the person capable of examining it, rejecting it, correcting it, shaping it, and finally standing behind it.
But a mind cannot temper anything if it refuses examination itself.
And that is where your position becomes more interesting than your insult.
A mind that refuses examination begins to resemble the very machine you claim to despise. It receives a familiar stimulus, reaches for the familiar pattern, and produces the familiar response without troubling itself over whether the response is true.
Input. Recognition. Output.
The machinery of contempt.
Ignorance itself is no shame. Every one of us is ignorant of almost everything. I have been wrong before and will be wrong again. If you can show me where, I gain something from the correction.
But there is something contemptible in making a virtue of ignorance.
In encountering an argument and proudly announcing that you will not examine it, then mistaking that refusal for discernment. In treating incuriosity as wisdom. In believing that because you have protected yourself from an argument, you have somehow defeated it.
You have not defended your position.
You have insulated it.
Those are not the same thing.
Thought requires a certain vulnerability. You must permit an idea close enough to examine it. You must risk finding weakness in your own position. You must allow the possibility that another person, even one using a tool you despise, might know something you do not.
Without that, certainty does not become strength.
It becomes brittleness.
You tried to cut me with the accusation that I had surrendered my mind to a machine. But in your eagerness to make it, you performed the very surrender you condemn.
You saw the signal.
You retrieved the response.
You refused examination.
You produced the slop.
And so the question remains exactly where I left it:
Will you defend what you believe?
Or is your conviction only strong enough to survive so long as you never allow an argument near it?
Oh! I wasn't sure you would read it, let alone reply. Writing it was a fun little excursion from my day, so I'm glad at least four lines made it through.
My offer still stands if you'd like to posit a position and defend it.
And I meant what I said about ignorance. I would genuinely love to be shown that I'm wrong. Sincerely. I would. Being wrong means there is something for me to learn, something against which to temper the mind.
What do ya say? Want to offer me something more substantial than slop?
That sounds more like the job of an editor than the job of a writer.
When I was an editor, my job was to assign stories to writers and then to work with the editorial team to revise and refine their output into an end product that the publication could stand behind.
Your process sounds a lot like that.
I think that is a fair comparison, and it is much closer to the conversation I was hoping to have.
I used “writing” and “authorship” pretty broadly in the original comment. I was talking about expressing my thoughts in things like letters, emails, comments, essays, and so on. What has been interesting is watching people get very hung up on the labels “writer” and “author,” then react to what they think I am claiming without really engaging with the process I was describing.
Your editor comparison is interesting because I used to work as an art director, and there are similarities. I did not paint or draw. I would explain an idea in words, hunt down reference images, point to compositions or details I liked, and work with a concept artist through round after round of sketches. I would say, “this is closer,” “that misses the idea,” “combine this with that,” or sometimes realize that my original concept itself needed to change.
I did not draw the artwork, and I would never claim that I did. But I was still doing creative work, and more importantly, the process was refining my own thinking.
That is the part of using AI that interests me most. I give it a thought, see that thought reflected back at me in language, judge what works and what does not, clarify what I actually mean, reject bad reasoning, discover distinctions I had not articulated yet, and then go through the process again.
Sometimes I come out of that process with better prose. More importantly, sometimes I come out of it with a better thought. So whether we ultimately call that “writing,” “editing,” or something else is honestly less interesting to me than what is happening in the process itself. I am not just refining the words. The act of interrogating and refining the words is also refining me.
What matters is that I review the final work, approve it, and put my name on it.
that's just called writing.

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