In the graph above I've arranged the 28 Threadiverse instances with at least 200 monthly active users (MAU)—orange instances running Lemmy, green Piefed, and red Mbin—on the basis of which instances they defederate.

Each instance has its MAU count listed below it, sourced from the latest MAU figures at Fediverse Observer, with adjustments made to the totals for Piefed (due to undercounting by outdated instances, as noted here; I used @Vicinus@piefed.zip's suggested estimate of 7,200 Piefed users) and Mbin (due to tardigram.com having a duplicate listing).

After adjustments, there are an estimated 43,287 monthly active Threadiverse users (35,184+7,200+903), of whom 87.84% are on the 28 largest instances. The percentages listed alongside the MAU figures correspond to each instance's share of the total MAU count.

Defederation data was sourced from Federation Checker. The tool doesn't support Mbin instances, so I left fedia.io in its own category. If any defederations are missing, feel free to let me know. Ideally such a chart should also include community blocks to better illustrate which instances block what, but that data doesn't appear to be as easily searchable.

I also noticed cases of some instances being listed as being defederated by another instance, despite not appearing on the defederation list for that instance (i.e. reddthat.com and lemmygrad.ml are listed as being mutually blocked, despite neither having the other on their block lists). In testing that federation, I noticed that !wholesome@reddthat.com did not federate to Lemmygrad while !memes@reddthat.com did, so clarification on that matter would be helpful.

While I'll update my generalized chart as needed to correct errors, perhaps at some point an automated federation mapping tool similar to the one feddit.de formerly hosted could be developed to more completely illustrate instance federation.

top 92 comments

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[–] 60 points 3 months ago (25 children)

I say, I really don’t get why so many people stay over on Reddit.

This might be a micro version of the actual future internet, where we walk away from the global model and split it into ideological countries who believe the best way forward is to stop talking to the other group.

We’ve come a long way from drawing artificial lines on maps.

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  • [–] 93 points 3 months ago (18 children)

    The fediverse is great if you fall into the like 5 interests that are pretty well represented here.

    But if the communities you wanna engage with aren't really active enough for potential posters to not just forget they exist, or you don't really want to be on a platform where 75% of the front page is news or memes about the state of the world politically, its not neccisarily a great replacement to reddit

    For me it happens to cover enough of my bases, but I can get why it wouldn't for many people.

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  • [–] 17 points 3 months ago (2 children)

    Just like in real life, one must grow and sometimes create the communities they want to be apart of.

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  • [–] 35 points 3 months ago

    While thats true, if my friend whose biggest interests are science informed dog training and animal genetics joins the threadiverse there are not enough people here who genuinely really care about those subjects to actually sustain any of the social connection she's looking for around them.

    If my friend who's super into basketball and competitive league of legends join she'd have at least a couple people to talk to, but its fundamentally not what she's looking for to talk to exactly 3 other people who care about the thing she's into.

    I try to remember that as much as I love the fediverse and feel at home here, it has real limitations for lots of people, and its okay if its not in a state they can go enjoy very easily. This is a space that I am passionate about and want to contribute to. I don't expect everyone to do labor to invest in a space that isnt their passion just to chat with folks when they have the ability to chat with folks somewhere else, even if that place has bigger picture downsides or harms associated with it.

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  • [–] 6 points 3 months ago (9 children)

    I've said this a number of times over the past couple days, but if there's an instance for mirroring subreddits, where niche subreddits that don't have an equivalent here yet basically get a carbon copy and a repost bot to stock them with relevant stuff from over there, that could fill in some of those gaps and make the fediverse a more attractive alternative.

    It won't have the same level of engagement right away, but it will provide a place for that engagement to occur, and as more people start using it it will create a network effect. As things stand now, we're missing a lot of those niche communities.

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  • [–] 2 points 3 months ago (1 child)

    This approach is honestly a non-starter. It lacks organic engagement, and most of the posts from people who do this have no comments or very few. It also tends to end up with one person flooding with a bunch of shit they didn't read. Personally, I usually block this as meaningless attention seeking, and I'm sure I'm not alone.

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  • [–] 1 point 3 months ago

    If you want to put it that way, you could also argue that anything posted on the threadiverse, or even more broadly, on the internet, is meaningless attention seeking.

    Or you could recognize that we need more content on the threadiverse to get more people engaged to reach the critical mass where we have a network effect which encourages more organic engagement, so anybody posting is doing their part to contribute to a greater cause.

    If they set up a comm with a bot to repost the top three posts a day from a specific reddit comm, what's the problem? Depending on the instance, maybe the admins don't want to host that and view it as bloat. They can make their own rules. But on an instance that allows it, or on someone's own instance, what's the problem?

    If someone doesn't want to see it, they can block the comm. If nobody upvotes it, it won't clog the all feed. If nobody comments on it, what's the issue if it just sits there and stays empty?

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  • [–] 2 points 3 months ago* (4 children)

    Someone explained that that exists and hasnt connected with people, but I think a big part of why it hasnt is that theres no real social drive to comment or engage with something if theres zero chance the poster might see it. It kinda feels like you're just speaking into the void, or talking to yourself

    Thats how I feel about it at least 🤷🏻‍♂️ if a human reposts stuff at least you can chat with the reposter about it, if its the kind of post where that makes sense. If the post is a "hey look at this thing I did", the reposter can't really say how it went or discuss the experience

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  • [–] 2 points 3 months ago (3 children)

    That makes sense. I guess it would mainly only work for posts linking to articles, but we already have that honestly

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  • [–] 1 point 3 months ago (2 children)

    Yeah. Honestly I feel like if it were to be helpful the best application would probably be a mixed one, where a mod still uses and checks the inbox on the not account. So only partially automated, and only makes up some of the posted content

    And I think it'd probably also work best if the mod picked what was to cross post and it could all just be put into a que, rather than just cross posting anything and everything. That way they can select stuff that would make sense to post even if they aren't the originator: memes, articles, info-posts/guides, etc.

    It'd still be less work than manually finding a ton of stuff to post, but still be much more intentional and interactive feeling.

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  • [–] 3 points 3 months ago (3 children)

    It really is pretty dead outside the main subjects. I have noone to talk about the latest episode of My Adventures with Superman. Did they now just leave the other universe with Clark dead? That sucks.

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  • [–] 2 points 3 months ago

    Maybe try making a post on one of the movies or shows comms (I'm not familiar with it and don't know if its a movie or a show. Though you can also just post where people are.)

    c/casual_conversations can also be a place to chat

    I think in some cases on the threadiverse communities just have to be more catchall, because there aren't enough people to congregate around a more specific topic. But there may be other people out there who would love to chat about that with you, even if there aren't enough for a specific community for the show

    (Apologies if youve already tried this, I just had the problem solving thought and figured I'd share. If its not helpful thats okay :)

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  • [–] 1 point 3 months ago (1 child)

    I do want to watch that. It's in my list of shows to watch one the first season is done. I normally don't follow western animation or comics, but he's so derpy I think it'll be endearing enough for me to enjoy.

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  • [–] 16 points 3 months ago

    You can still choose one that talks to everybody else. In fact, this graphic might be a nice tool for new users who want advice beyond "Just choose any instance, it doesn't matter" or "Just use lemmy.world".

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  • [–] 3 points 3 months ago* (1 child)

    I can understand people staying on Reddit more than those staying on Twitter to be honest.

    At least spez hasn't gone full nazi yet, or provided tools for generating pedophilia.

    Both of which people seem to be perfectly fine with. So it doesn't surprise me they're fine with Reddit too.

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  • [–] 2 points 3 months ago (2 children)

    This might be a micro version of the actual future internet, where we walk away from the global model and split it into ideological countries who believe the best way forward is to stop talking to the other group.

    Reminds me of the world depicted in The Diamond Age. The setting is perhaps our world a few decades in the future, where the role of countries has faded and instead life is organised via fragmented, extremely diverse patchwork of phyles based on ethnic or ideological affiliation, but entirely irrespective of where they geographically are (a phyle can operate in many different locations). These phyles interact via a deeply capitalistic Common Economic Protocol, where the only "human right" that matters is harm to an individual's ability for economic productivity.

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  • [–] 1 point 3 months ago

    Well, first off, I doubt there’s much world with internet decades into the future. But if I had to do the fediverse design again, i would make defederation impossible.

    You can just know there’s a r/thedonald over there, and not go there, but everyone else is still all there.

    Creating a fediverse to federate the internet, and then casually allowing defederation is oxymoronic.

    But then you must truly accept a universally agreed on definition of what free speech constitutes. Specifically the age old question on whether free speech includes hate speech or not. (And then there’s that gray zone where hate speechers will say it is not hate speech, they’re simply saying what other’s are thinking, or it’s just their opinion)

    Gets pretty philosophical pretty quickly and in the end you might end up all the way back at this reddit + the defediverse.

    And like I said, we aint got that kind of time left.

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  • [–] 1 point 3 months ago

    "One of the insights of the Victorian Revival was that it was not necessarily a good thing for everyone to read a completely different newspaper in the morning; so the higher one rose in the society, the more similar one’s Times became to one’s peers'."

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  • [–] 119 points 3 months ago (15 children)

    Well that's a confusing graph.

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  • [–] 44 points 3 months ago* (1 child)

    Since defederating is essentially an explicit block list and is directional, my assumption is that the groups that are circled have defederated from the things they're pointing at. I could be wrong.

    Map needs a key/legend.

    The red circled stuff seems to be only one possible option, but isn't visually very distinct, and the red circle shouldn't be broken like that, just make sure the lines are all visible.

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  • [–] 21 points 3 months ago (10 children)

    Yeah, as someone who is struggling to understand the concept of federation...this doesn't help me at all.

    I guess what its saying, if you're on lemmy.world, you can't access content on lemmy.zip?

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  • [–] 17 points 3 months ago (8 children)

    If I'm reading it correctly, lemmy.world cut ties from lemmygrad.ml and hexbear.net while hexbear.net and beehaw.org cut ties with lemmy.world. lemmy.zip appears to be connected to everyone.

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  • [–] 3 points 3 months ago (5 children)

    Why would they do that? I'm unaware of internal issues in Lemmy at this point?

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  • [–] 9 points 3 months ago (3 children)

    Ideological differences. Lemmy.world is liberal, while lemmygrad and hexbear are hardcore communists (aka tankies).

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  • [–] 15 points 3 months ago (2 children)

    I believe its not the hardcore communism but the style of users on those instances. hexbear users were brigading communities of other instances, and their moderators did nothing. they earned it.

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  • [–] 7 points 3 months ago (1 child)

    No hexbear was never federated. They started discussing whether to federate and writing moderation rules, sent them to other admins for input, and .world preemptively put hexbear on their defederation list. .world basically said it was ideological differences, they posted all the parts of the draft hexbear rules where they were explaining that hexbear was communist/anarchist and anti-western, and that was just a self-evident reason to preemptively defederate.

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  • [–] 1 point 3 months ago*

    It's a question if history is real and if it matters or not.

    A big contention is about the historical and political reality of Ukraine (spoilers in my instance .tld)

    The "anti western" communists claim that the USA publicly bragged about doing a regime change on Ukraine, like before they did it, and the CIA affiliate even published the money they supported the organizer of the euromaidan protests with on their own website. Besides trained him. They also claim there were Nazis and that there are newspapers reports about this. They even unironically want to rehabilitate Stalin and the state violence of the great purge that passed about 10% of the population through a gulag! Imagine doing this in the USA today with all the MAGAts and corrupt officials and landowners in order to reeducate them and prevent a counterrevolution!!! Clearly they are insane.

    And these are all lies because that is what Putin says and Putin is evil. So the good liberals of .world rightfully point out that all this is nonsense and Ukraine has always been neutral and the revolution of dignity must not be impinged by dirty commies. We've always been at war with Eurasia. The liberal socialists agree that this is a time where we need to band together and return to normalcy, because obviously we can't have all this aggravation and it's better to be inside the tent pissing out, no matter much fun it is to be on the outside pissing in.

    This is all besides the question of ideology, collectivism and all that unamerican crap lol.

    My personal opinion: You cannot have rational discourse with insane people in an insane society. It also means lemmy has failed as a global medium for meaningful political discourse. While the communist instances (the original developers btw) are pretty extreme and hostile, .world managed to monopolize much of lemmy and enforce (neo)liberal majority opinion on lemmy.

    Obviously this is all satire. Nobody is planning a global war on democratic socialists or something.

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  • [–] 53 points 3 months ago (4 children)

    The beehaw.org/sh.itjust.works defederation is really one-way. Beehaw defederated from us after some exceptionally bad trolls were operating from sh.itjust.works in 2023. IIRC, they requested that we also defederate from them to really make sure the split was made. We honored their request.

    We would happily reconnect if Beehaw decided they want to federate with us again. If not, then that's fine; they have a right to associate with whomever they like.

    I believe infosec.pub temporarily defederated from us around the same time for the same reason. It was a rough time.

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  • [–] [S] 20 points 3 months ago (3 children)

    I'll adjust the graph by the next version to account for it as an exception.

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  • [–] 23 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago) (2 children)

    If you want to complicate the graph further, I believe hexbear federates using an allow list. Blahaj, lemmy.ca, and sh.itjust.works are not on the allow list, so they are effectively defederated. I haven't looked further to see which other large instances may be affected.

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  • [–] [S] 2 points 3 months ago (1 child)

    In most cases that a major instance isn't on the Hexbear allow list, it seems to be an instance that blocks Hexbear already anyhow, so the current layout is sufficient for that. An exception seems to be jlai.lu, which does not block Hexbear yet isn't on the approved list. In such a case, would the two instances still effectively be defederated?

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  • [–] 28 points 3 months ago (11 children)

    I really like this but I can not figure it out. Would you be willing to make the data available?

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  • [–] [S] 32 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago) (9 children)

    The MAU numbers for instances were sourced from Fediverse Observer and calculated as a percentage of 43,287 for the percentages, but here's a table of the defederation data:

    Lemmy
    Instance Defederates
    lemmy.world Hexbear, Lemmygrad
    sh.itjust.works Beehaw, Hexbear, Lemmygrad
    lemmy.zip N/A
    lemmy.ml fedinsfw.app
    feddit.org fedinsfw.app, Hexbear, Lemmygrad
    hexbear.net lemmy.world
    lemmy.dbzer0.com Lemmygrad, Feddit.org
    lemmy.ca Hexbear, Lemmygrad
    lemmy.blahaj.zone fedinsfw.app, Hexbear, Lemmygrad
    programming.dev Hexbear
    discuss.tchncs.de Lemmygrad
    sopuli.xyz fedinsfw.app, Hexbear, Lemmygrad
    lemmygrad.ml fedinsfw.app
    lemmy.today N/A
    slrpnk.net Hexbear, Lemmygrad
    feddit.uk N/A
    infosec.pub fedinsfw.app, Hexbear, Lemmygrad, Lemmy.ml
    reddthat.com N/A
    jlai.lu Lemmygrad
    beehaw.org sh.itjust.works, lemmy.world, Lemmygrad, Hexbear
    pawb.social Hexbear, Lemmygrad
    thelemmy.club N/A
    feddit.nl N/A
    Piefed
    Instance Defederates
    fedinsfw.app Hexbear, Lemmygrad
    piefed.social Hexbear, Lemmygrad
    piefed.ca Hexbear, Lemmygrad
    piefed.zip N/A
    Mbin
    Instance Defederates
    fedia.io ?
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  • [–] 12 points 3 months ago (5 children)

    What the hell are Hexbear and Lemmygrad and what did they do that everyone's blocking them?

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  • [–] 8 points 3 months ago

    Lammygrad are Marxist Leninist, Hexbear are dirtbag leftists. That makes them the natural enemies of center-left and centrist instances like .world.

    In my opinion it comes down to a disagreement over capitalism. One side wants to destroy it, the other side wants to moderate it.

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  • [–] 9 points 3 months ago (2 children)

    Lemmygrad and Hexbear (I think) are instances filled with "tankies", which means that they can't shut up about how awesome authoritarian regimes that present themselves as communist, like China, and some others, like Russia, are, despite all the crimes against human rights those countries' governments keep committing (according to tankies, the governments they support don't actually commit any atrocities, it's just "lies spread via anti-communist propaganda", which they also use as a excuse for silencing anyone presenting criticism about their favourite regimes). Please keep in mind that lots of communists don't see countries like China as communist, despite the countries calling themselves that.

    As these instances have lots of tankies, they tend to have toxic communities. Their users also tend to hate trans people for some reason, and sometines try to harass people because of it, which is a big no-no to instances that want their trans users to feel safe, such as Blåhaj Zone.

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  • [–] 5 points 3 months ago (1 child)

    The second "hexbear is anti trans" comment I've seen in this thread

    I spent a lot of time on hexbear over the last year because I had never run into tankies before. They are definitely problematic, way too ok with killing humans to achieve goals, and willing to lie to win a debate in an ends justify the means sort of way, but they arent anti trans in any way that I saw. If they are lying about their pro trans stance they are putting a ton of effort into it and theyve succesfully tricked me I guess

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  • [–] 5 points 3 months ago (2 children)

    Can someone give me the gossip on fedinsfw.app and feddit.org? What are they? Why is db0zer defederated from feddit.org?

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  • [–] [S] 11 points 3 months ago* (1 child)

    FediNSFW is a Piefed instance dedicated to NSFW content. Some instances defederate it due to that, while (as @Grail@multiverse.soulism.net mentioned) Multiverse and apparently Blahaj defederate it due to it hosting a 'Fautbait' community over CP concerns.

    Feddit.org strictly enforces German anti-semitism laws on criticizing Israel. As a result, dbzer0 accused it of being Zionist and defederated it. I don't think criticism of Israel should be removed, but I also prefer to be on an instance with wider federation, which is why I switched my main account from dbzer0 to Sopuli.

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  • [–] 32 points 3 months ago (6 children)

    Very proud of lemmy.zip! Joined very early on cause the name sounded cool lol, and apparently a lot of others also did. If i remember right we had a vote on defederations and the only major one to happen(or maybe the only one, idk) was exploding heads which was a nazi instance with CSAM on it so that was obvious, even that was mainly cause of the CSAM. I really like the approach of users being able to block instances and communities rather than the instance deciding for me. I still have ml and hexbear blocked tho cause they banned me after i stood up for trans rights or something lol

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  • [–] 8 points 3 months ago*

    I'm feeling the same way. I've bounced around a few places since joining. I started on midwest.social which was great for a while, but I think the instance grew more than the dev could keep up with. I started seeing connectivity issues and problems displaying content so I reluctantly migrated to .world to see what joining the largest instance would be like. The technical issues went away but I couldn't figure out why I could no longer see /c/piracy until I realized that they're a bunch of pushovers that defederated from dbzer0 based on some liability bogeyman. So I found myself on Lemmy.zip where I can police my own content and have no technical issues.

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  • [+] 7 points 3 months ago (2 children)
  • [–] 2 points 3 months ago (1 child)

    Oh i thought it was a perma ban. Also how can i check this? Cause i got banned after commenting about trans rights but i guess that wasnt why i got banned, tho the memes community ban might be that. 2 years is still insane tho. As for the other, yeah i was anti-ai in an ai community and not a vegan in a vegan community, but the way that is phrased is insane.

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  • [+] 3 points 3 months ago* (1 child)
  • [–] 1 point 3 months ago

    Now that i check i see that i got banned from like 20 ml communites, and for st least 1.5 years but i think it was 2(idk how the modlog thingy rounds it). Reason i thought i got banned completely is because they banned me from every community from ml that i had ever commented on.

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  • [–] 5 points 3 months ago (1 child)

    Hexbear blocked you for being pro trans? I find that hard to believe.

    I disagree with them on a lot but they are a very pro trans group of people

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  • [–] 0 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago)

    i've been blocked for being pro trans in many communities.

    because I'm not pro-trans enough. so i must want to kill all trans people. or so their logic goes.

    it's not really often a reflection of the instance or the community, so much as one really really angry user or a few, who have decided you're the scum of the earth for voicing an opinion they don't agree with 120%. you know, toxic nutbag users.

    extremists often thing anyone isn't as extreme as them is committing a hate crime against them.

    anyway, i haven't been banned anywhere since, since i blocked the instances from which those types of folks tend to come from. and they overwhelmingly come from a few instances, and making a post in their instances basically paints a target on your back and they stalk you across the fediverse because well, that's the type of user they are. they could just... block you. but you know, that would be too simple, they need to feel like they have punished you for not agreeing with them.

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    [–] 15 points 3 months ago* (1 child)

    OK I think I get how to read this, once I understood the concept. Very nice work.

    Maybe it would be a little clearer if the lines where boxes overlap were just slightly offset -- it would help see and distinguish them. For example if the blue box was moved down by just a little more than the width of the red lines, instead of being directly on top of them. If that makes sense.

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  • [–] 12 points 3 months ago

    This is cool, thanks!

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  • [–] 7 points 3 months ago (1 child)

    What's the beef between beehaw and lemmy.world?

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  • [–] 7 points 3 months ago (8 children)

    Ok, I'll be the one to ask: What happened that 6 instances with 13% of the population combined blocked the porn instance?

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  • [–] [S] 12 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago) (7 children)

    As many instances were already blocking the original lemmynsfw.com, I suspect most do it as a means of moderating the feeds of new users who might not want to see porn. An alternative to this (as mentioned by @Cricket@lemmy.zip) would be blocking access to its communities (versus the instance itself) by default, allowing users to see replies from fedinsfw.app users and unblock the communities should they wish to. In either case, I think user retention is better served by limiting access to such content to those who are specifically interested in it.

    For Multiverse and apparently Blahaj specifically, they defederate it over CP concerns due to it hosting a 'Fautbait' community.

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  • [–] 7 points 3 months ago* (4 children)

    An alternative to this (as mentioned by @Cricket@lemmy.zip) would be blocking its communities (versus the instance itself) by default, allowing users to see replies from fedinsfw.app users and unblock the communities should they wish to.

    Hey thanks for tagging me, but let me clarify because that's not exactly what I meant. Lemmy.zip doesn't block any communities by default (as far as I can recall, at least). It blocks a couple of instances by default, and each user can remove those blocks if they wish. This is different from defederating from those instances because defederation cannot be controlled by users, only by admins, but it's still an instance block, not community block.

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  • [–] [S] 2 points 3 months ago* (1 child)

    Thanks for the clarification 👍 Clarified with italics that what is being blocked is access to the communities, rather than a direct blocking of individual communities.

    The key distinction I wanted to highlight—aside from unblocking being an option—was that users from the blocked instance can still interact with communities on the blocking instance, compared to defederation.

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  • [–] 1 point 3 months ago

    I always felt it was strange that it didn't just happen at the client level. Should have had flags in the initial design and moderate to enforce. Just turn the default off on all clients people can turn it on if they want.

    The fautbait stuff is obviously a deeper problem

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  • [–] 7 points 3 months ago (3 children)

    Hmm, piefed.ca is supposed to follow the lemmy.ca defed list, I'd expect both to be the same.

    Use of colors for software is confusing, since I expected it to be based on the % or something. A legend would be clutch for those of us that look at pictures and get confused, then read the text...

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  • [–] [S] 5 points 3 months ago (2 children)

    I'll design a legend for the next version for clarity. Piefed.ca and Lemmy.ca are both in the same section in the graph, similar to Piefed.zip and Lemmy.zip, but maybe I'll think of a way to format jointly managed instances for the next version.

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  • [–] 5 points 3 months ago (1 child)

    I thought the % underneath was the number of users who couldn't see that instance, but I guess it's % of the active fediverse users?

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  • [–] [S] 3 points 3 months ago*

    Yes; the percentage underneath an instance is its proportion of the overall Threadiverse userbase. The percentages on the large arrows are the sum of the userbases within the associated box, indicating the extent to which an instance is defederated (somewhat of an underestimation, given that 12% of users are unaccounted for).

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  • [–] 6 points 3 months ago

    What's with feddit.org?

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  • [–] 6 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago) (4 children)

    Do sharing a circle mean defederated or federated?

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  • [–] 12 points 3 months ago (3 children)

    Arrows mean defederated. Circles mean everything within that circle is defederated from the target instance. (It took me a while to figure that out.)

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  • [–] [S] 7 points 3 months ago (2 children)

    Sorry for the confusion; I'll try to make it clearer next time.

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  • [–] 6 points 3 months ago

    It's actually impressively clear, I did not think it would be possible to represent all of the details in such a simple graphic. Very nicely done. But I guess anything can be improved with a bit of iteration.

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