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[–] 147 points 3 months ago (4 children)

They're all fine with redistribution of wealth, but only in one direction.

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  • [–] 4 points 3 months ago (2 children)

    Isnt everyone fine with redistribution of wealth in only one direction?

    Some want it downwards, some want it upwards, some want it all thrown into the sun

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  • [–] 7 points 3 months ago

    Yes, but some won't acknowledge that it's already happening (upwards), and they'll criticize the general concept as taking money away from people who earned it. I will tell you that I worked harder for near minimum wage than I do now for above median wage. The people benefiting from the status quo tend to demonize any threat of changing the status quo, and the language used is intentional in order to frame an argument that assumes that their preferred system is the default and normal one.

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  • [–] 74 points 3 months ago* (3 children)

    This is called wealth transfer, conservatives only like it when it goes from the bottom to the top.

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  • [–] 20 points 3 months ago (2 children)

    If there is one conservatives know about, its bottom and tops.

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  • [–] 53 points 3 months ago (1 child)

    People in USA: so are your import tariffs gone now? Have tariff related price increases gone back down? Or have businesses just decided to keep that free money too?

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  • [–] 30 points 3 months ago (2 children)

    Actually it's worse! Because the current US secretary of Commerce, Howard Luttnick, and his sons went around to companies most impacted by the illegal tariffs, and said that they'd pay them a small amount of money now, for the rights to the full tariff refund later. Basically betting that the tariffs would be ruled illegal, and that there would be massive refunds issued. So they bought up the rights to millions of refunds, for pennies on the dollar, effectively leveraging their insider knowledge of the issue, in one of less blatant instances of corruption within this administration.

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  • [–] 22 points 3 months ago (1 child)

    That was the plan all along.

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  • [–] 19 points 3 months ago (1 child)

    To be fair, he said "you'll get tired of winning". What he didn't specify is who were included in that "you".

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  • [–] 18 points 3 months ago (8 children)

    All of these corporate fines, where the citizens get screwed, but the government gets all the money, needs to be handled differently.

    We need to start an "America First Fund" (irony intended) for these sorts of fines, which will be the seed money to fund our wish list of social programs, starting with Medicare 4 All. As we collect fines, settlements, confiscations, etc. from Sociopathic Oligarchs and their corporations, it should go into the America First Fund, to finance a better life for all American citizens.

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  • [–] 4 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago) (1 child)

    fines

    fund social programs

    I think this is just called "taxes" in a functional society.

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  • [–] 2 points 3 months ago

    Taxes, tariffs, and fees, sure.

    But even that's just an end-run around publicly staffed and administered enterprises. Why do you even need a private middleman to begin with? Taxation is a means of reorganizing currency, sure. But a nation's real material wealth is in its sovereignty, its industry, and its natural resources.

    Rather than letting a handful of grifters and gatekeepers rent-seek off the public, then skimming a vig off the top, we could abolish the landlord class entirely and manage the productive forces democratically.

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  • [–] 3 points 3 months ago (5 children)

    There should be an "econonomic" as a separate government estate of power. It could be much more direct democracy with people voting every month on economic proposals. Like the federal bank printing the money, which the people then can vote for to fund this or that project. Buy this or that factory, or shut it down. Parts of the economy planned, but democratic in many ways.

    It's so ludicrous that we're stuck on 19th century democracy when we have better voting systems and internet access and cheap usb authentication dongles.

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  • [–] 4 points 3 months ago* (4 children)

    Ohh god. Please no popular voting to control nation state monetary policy.

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  • [–] 1 point 3 months ago (3 children)

    Sure, some parts should be more institutionalized and run by experts. But people should definitely get a say if their "taxes" (printed money really) are spend on wars and goes to the military industrial complex or not. Independent of the executive and legislative.

    For example why do we need the stock market at all? If it's for getting investments, this could be democratically voted on by the people, not by capitalists.

    Obviously democracy can't be absolute, but we've mostly stopped any talk about improving our democratic systems. If people actually want change and overcome the current crisis that has developed of the previous century, we don't just need a reconstruction era but also need to learn about the failure modes and drastic improvements. And that HAS to include economics and how we run it. There is little doubt now that liberal capitalism will lead to humanities extinction.

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  • [–] 2 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago) (2 children)

    Budgeting I totally agree should be democratic. monetary policy is a whole different matter.

    Since you are a ml person I recommend checking out how China and the Soviet Union do/did monetary policy. Small group of centralized well informed people.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monetary_policy_of_China

    https://archive.org/details/monetarypolicyin0000naka/page/n10/mode/1up

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  • [–] 2 points 3 months ago (1 child)

    And obviously none of this would work without some sort of revolution and a "restoration" and a massive education campaign about how the economy can work to serve the people.

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  • [–] 2 points 3 months ago

    I think after such a successful education the vote would be to let a small group of highly educated informed people manage monetary policy. Like small small changes can flatten potential for material growth or just destroy all savings.

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  • [–] 34 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago) (6 children)

    It's actually even worse than just taxpayers paying businesses: Since the US doesn't have the tax revenue to pay the businesses, it will need to take out more debt to pay them. So the taxpayers will not only pay the businesses, but they will also pay interest. (That is, if you believe that the US will be able to stabilize its debt before defaulting. At the rate we're going, with the looter class taking US government funds, the US will end up defaulting before taxpayers have a chance to pay down the debt. To be clear, a default would be far more painful than the austerity required to stabilize the debt.)

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  • [–] 10 points 3 months ago (3 children)

    Forgive me for not understanding as I'm not from the US, but what happened to the funds from the collected tariffs?

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  • [–] 12 points 3 months ago (1 child)

    They go to Trump's sovereign wealth fund which he uses to give his allies cushy government contracts.

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  • [–] 4 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago)

    Do you have a source where I could read more about this? I tried looking all of this up and the only articles I found contradict the original comment about taking loans to repay tariffs and that putting tariff revenue into a sovereign wealth fund was proposed but never happened.

    Edit: further reading shows neither is factual.

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  • [–] 1 point 3 months ago (1 child)

    To be clear, a default would be far more painful than the austerity required to stabilize the debt.)

    Hard disagree. The debt is already unpayable, and austerity cuts the kind of investment that creates economic activity, like schools and infrastructure. And our schools and bridges are already collapsing

    And it's not just national debt that has become unpayable... We have levels of debt that can't be repaid at all levels. It's a big part of why everything is becoming unaffordable

    This is part of the collapse of an empire. It's happened before. There's three ways out of it. The first is a jubilee, a one time general forgiveness of all debt (unlikely). The second is a revolution and reorganization where we don't acknowledge prior debt

    The most likely path forward is hyperinflation, where the majority of debt is shrunk by devaluation of the currency

    No amount of austerity will get us out of this hole... The purpose of austerity is to extract wealth through opening outside investment and suppressing economic development. It's purpose is to keep countries on a debt treadmill indefinitely

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  • [–] 1 point 3 months ago

    What you said is true for most countries. But the US dollar is used by countries to pay each other. So most countries have some dollars, and a few - mainly the UK and Japan - have massive stockpiles. They won't like any reduction in the value of the dollar. I read an article that recently, the Japanese shorted US AI companies, driving their valuations down, as punishment for something else Trump did. Such 'trade wars' could escalate if the dollar hyperinflates.

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  • [–] 13 points 3 months ago (7 children)

    How do you stop this crap. That money could have paid for universal healthcare many times over.

    Rob the poor to pay the rich USA mentality

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  • [–] 3 points 3 months ago (3 children)

    How do you stop this crap.

    You'd need some kind of large popular movement engaged in a collective struggle to reassert ownership over the physical and bureaucratic infrastructure of their communities.

    Rob the poor to pay the rich USA mentality

    Really no other way to become rich, when you think about it.

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  • [–] 2 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago)

    Material and influencr rich to be specific.

    There are men who have less, know that's enough for them, and let their surplus wealth circulate around their families and communities.

    Men who are rich by making other people rich cannot be compared.

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  • [–] 1 point 3 months ago (1 child)

    There’s levels. When the tariffs are for you friends and fuck the nation it’s broken.

    When you can bomb several counties and threaten others and not give a shot that jo public who can’t afford food has to find extra cash for gas …. To fund an illegal war.

    Never buy USA again

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  • [–] 1 point 3 months ago

    Organize. Find common bonds even with people who kind of suck.

    If you're on a jury and the law is bullshit, nullify. (You don't have to show your work when you give your verdict and they can't say you gave the wrong answer. You can just say not guilty, even if that plumber really did push that billionaire into a wood chipper feet first.)

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  • [–] 12 points 3 months ago (1 child)

    Hell yeah... all that "tarrif money" from the first go-arounds is in trump's pocket. You don't think HE'S going to pay for his criminal act, do you?

    Get the fuck out of here !!! You crazy person you.

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  • [–] 11 points 3 months ago (1 child)

    The biglyest winning! So much YUGE win! In fact, many men, big burly men, have said "Sir, Sir! Please Sir, take more money from us to make business richer, so we can be in debt for your fantastic plans!" They said it while literally crying, believe me.

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  • [–] 16 points 3 months ago (4 children)

    It's been a big slow robbery the whole time.

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  • [–] 10 points 3 months ago (2 children)

    I've had some conversations with some pretty generationaly wealthy people, the underlying sentiment is, if you aren't going to call us out on the stock market literally there to enrich the wealthy and steal the wages, then we are just going to keep pushing the envelope.

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  • [–] 4 points 3 months ago (1 child)

    I think you’re right. I keep hearing about how the stock market bubble will burst, but I can’t help but think that a) billionaires will use a lot of power to resist that and b) if it does, they’ll buy up all the leftovers for cheap and leave the little guy with the true loss

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  • [–] 1 point 3 months ago

    Billionaires love it when the bubble bursts. If everyone is "selling" who do you think is buying? The people with real wealth buy it all up knowing that the workers will put it back together and they can profit the whole way through.

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  • [–] 8 points 3 months ago (1 child)

    But we drove unemployment down because the businesses and oligarchs got all the extra money right? righhhht?

    :aniken/padme meme:

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  • [–] 6 points 3 months ago (4 children)

    Ted Dansons Voice: Woah woah woah, we weren't promised to be Charlie Sheen-Grade winners.

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  • [–] 3 points 3 months ago (3 children)

    I see a whole bunch of charlie sheens in my trailer park but it usually involves lower grade drugs and lower grade women and shit ton of fox news

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  • [–] 2 points 3 months ago (2 children)

    But as long as they keep rebuilding the area and give their soul to Jesus they can do anything.......... Except find the right vein because they're on the left arm 🫪

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  • [–] 5 points 3 months ago (3 children)

    And we're doing it all over again.

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  • [–] 4 points 3 months ago

    I PAID THE TARRIFS.

    But I did not vote for import fees.

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  • [–] 7 points 3 months ago

    Glad you're enjoying it America. Facisim is a super active sport, be careful not to tyranny ligament!

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  • [–] 9 points 3 months ago (3 children)

    You would be amazed how many taxes work exactly like this.

    (hint: its most of them).

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  • [–] 3 points 3 months ago

    A corporate stimmy!

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  • [–] 3 points 3 months ago

    I feel like a double loser because of these morons grifting for their corporate overlords.

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  • [–] 2 points 3 months ago

    Reads like Clark & Dawe discussing the European debt crisis

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  • [–] 0 points 3 months ago (2 children)

    Who paid for the tariffs?

    Who pays for the refund?

    Isn't this redundant? The tariff is federal income. The refund is federal spending. The amount is (presumably) identical.

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  • [–] [S] 2 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago) (1 child)

    The tariff is federal income

    Officially, yes, but it's much more accurate to call it a consumer expense. Because that's what it is.

    The federal government cut corporate taxes and otherwise enriched corporations by much more than the tariffs and the vast majority of the corporations just raised prices by as much as or MORE than the tariffs, raking in huge profits while most people have to be buried in debt to just survive.

    The amount is (presumably) identical.

    Weird to assume accurate math and a lack of grift from the fascist kakistocracy, but you do you, I guess 🤷🏻

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  • [–] 0 points 3 months ago*

    it’s much more accurate to call it a consumer expense

    Sure, in so far as one man's income is another man's expense.

    The federal government cut corporate taxes and otherwise enriched corporations by much more than the tariffs

    The Feds also ramped up issuance of debt to cover the deficit spending. But since we aren't adhering to any kind of balanced budget, there's no relation between these policies.

    By contrast, the tariff rebates absolutely have a 1-to-1 correlation between income and refund. You're double counting if you claim that you've paid a tariff AND you paid a refund. Your taxes didn't go up to pay for the refund. As you noted, tax rates have only fallen.

    Weird to assume accurate math

    I'm assuming tariff = refund until I see evidence to the contrary.

    I'm not just going to make up an extra imaginary offense because I don't like the real policies from the real people really in office.

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  • [–] -5 points 3 months ago (10 children)

    Strange, if you vote for stupid, incompetent assholes you get stupid, incompetent assholes. Well, at least you can bitch afterwards.

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  • [–] 17 points 3 months ago (6 children)

    Yes, because the US is famous for functional elections and educated people, capable of making informed decisions.

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  • [–] 2 points 3 months ago (1 child)

    What is funny is the fact that it literally is.

    At least until a few years ago.

    There is a reason people all over the country send their kids to get educated in the US.

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  • [–] -2 points 3 months ago (3 children)

    Tell yourself whatever you need. But, everybody knew who he is and what he does and the second time around he won the popular vote. Sooo...

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  • [–] 15 points 3 months ago (2 children)

    You can't blame Americans for having no access to education, or appropriate conditions to inform themselves.

    Their entire education system has been broken for the last 100 years, if not more. All of their media is filled to the brim with propaganda and manipulation. All while they're forced to worry about survival and basic necessities, despite working almost twice as many hours as average Europeans.

    It's not Americans' fault they're stupid and clueless. They've been born and raised in conditions that don't allow for anything else. The US has been designed specifically for this.

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  • [–] 2 points 3 months ago*

    Short version: nah. It doesn't work like that

    Longer version: all it takes is really asking the question "is this moron capable and willing to make my life better?" and looking up some evidence. That's not rocket science

    Longer longer version: 100 years. So, a few generations. And no one came together to fix this. Oh welp, no one to blame?

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  • [–] 1 point 3 months ago

    However, Americans (of the Boomer generation) did have choices to make. And the choices of what they prioritized (wealth over everything, work over everything) led to the kind of country that designed the US as it is today.

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  • [–] 6 points 3 months ago (1 child)

    The outlined scenario sounds neither stupid not incompetent.

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  • [–] -4 points 3 months ago

    Well, it is and if you don't use memes as news source, you could know that 🤷🏻‍♂️

    The plan was never to have this repealed by the surpreme court, it was to redistribute wealth from everybody to billionaires via tax breaks.

    Would have always been shitty, but now it is shitty in a different way.

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    [–] -3 points 3 months ago (6 children)

    Nothing like getting ripped off by your government, twice. Why Americans haven't revolted yet is beyond me. They must be as cowardly as they are stupid.

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  • [–] 3 points 3 months ago (5 children)

    i enjoy being blown apart by predator drones about as much as i enjoy colonoscopy prep. how about you?

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  • [–] 0 points 3 months ago (2 children)

    I think I'd much prefer the colonoscopy prep. You're losing freedoms, comforts, and purchasing power, and you're equating the two?

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  • [–] 2 points 3 months ago (1 child)

    You're trying to incite people to go die by police and you're quibbling over my choice of words?

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  • [–] 2 points 3 months ago

    You know there are other ways to revolt, right? It doesn't have to be running in guns a'blazing. There's sabotage. There's spending your money wisely. There's going out and participating in activism.

    Trump is going to sabotage the midterm elections and if Americans just sit by and watch, they deserve to watch their freedoms dwindle and their comforts and securities disappear. So many have bled and died for the freedoms you have taken for granted. Shame on you and all Americans not even willing to put up ANY RESISTANCE WHATSOEVER.

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