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[–] 49 points 4 months ago (5 children)

The US has a serious problem with who is able to sue for what damages when it comes to pollution. Depending on if it's noise, water, or air, the legal codes are not effective at protecting property or people.

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  • [–] 3 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago) (2 children)

    As SCOTUS keeps ruling (most recently, yesterday) corporations are people (id est, have rights) but human beings are not (don't have rights).

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  • [–] 1 point 4 months ago (1 child)

    That's just it though, this is damaging to corporations as well.

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  • [–] 2 points 4 months ago

    It is. And also game companies know that crunching their developers to meet deadlines actually makes things worse, that there have been studies and yet they crunch anyway.

    When people have too much power, too often they rule based on vibes rather than on what science and history has shown works.

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  • [–] 1 point 4 months ago

    Almost, they're not effective at protecting the property or people negatively affected by the pollution because they were specifically designed to protect the people doing the polluting and their "property" (read: capital).

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  • [–] 129 points 4 months ago (10 children)

    Benn Jordan leveraged his expertise in audio engineering to investigate this phenomenon. Do watch.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_bP80DEAbuo

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  • [–] 54 points 4 months ago (1 child)

    Benn Jordan is a gem, do yourself a favor and just go watch all his stuff.

    His latest on robot dogs is amazingly well-executed and researched with terrifying conclusions.

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  • [–] 6 points 4 months ago

    Listen to his music, too! It’s amazing! I’ve seen him a few times and one time the equipment at the festival didn’t work so he just improvised his whole set. He was insanely good at it. So much vocoder, it was delightful!

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  • [–] 21 points 4 months ago (4 children)

    Benn Jordan is like an anarchist Mr. Rogers.

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  • [–] 18 points 4 months ago (2 children)

    We need an anarchist Mr. Rogers. Just someone pure of heart to talk to kids about taking care of their neighbors no matter what the government says. Little everyday lessons in consensus and how to deal with the conflicts that arise when different people have different big feelings. How everyone is special just for being themselves and we should encourage our neighbors to be their unique selves.

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  • [–] 4 points 4 months ago*

    I don't disagree, but I feel like the actual Mr. Rogers probably created a lot of Anarchists on his own! I think everything he teaches is not just cohesive with, but runs parallel to, Anarchist teachings. Taking care of yourself and your community is the foundation of Anarchism. I don't know if being explicit would necessarily help, and it could push some people away from hearing the message.

    He was too friendly with cops though.

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  • [–] 26 points 4 months ago (5 children)

    Yeah, but do you know what's super useful? Molotov cocktails.

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  • [–] 12 points 4 months ago

    Not sure how effective that would be unless you were able to get inside the building and could strategically deliver them.

    What you really need is a drone that can drop thermite, then lower a small EMP device into the hole.

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  • [–] 37 points 4 months ago (13 children)

    Just tax the fucking things already. Fuck tax breaks and kick out any administrators who take the bribes and go against the wishes of their constituents.

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  • [–] 19 points 4 months ago (12 children)

    Woah woah woah, let's not get hasty. I say we dismember the administrators for taking bribes. Why just kick them out?

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  • [–] 7 points 4 months ago (2 children)

    Why wouldn’t you do that to the board of directors of the companies bribing the officials? When removing weeds you need to pull out the roots.

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  • [–] -5 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago) (7 children)

    Ah, the chimpanzee method.

    It really weirds me out that gratuitous violence as a response to societal injustice is so common on Lemmy, if not across Humanity as a whole. Like let’s say this back-to-basics style of justice comes about in modern society and all the relevant assholes are subjected to it. What then? At least, what would the violence even be in the name of? Retribution? How is that productive in any way?

    I realize this is a pretty disproportionate response to a relatively banal comment, but I see sentiments such as this one (either intended as sarcasm or not) so often here that I’m essentially using this as a catch-all spot for my thoughts on it.

    I’ll just end this tangent with a quote about this sort of thing from a guy way smarter than me (and I promise I’m not just trying to be pretentious it actually applies.)

    Absolute freedom mocks at justice. Absolute justice denies freedom. To be fruitful, the two ideas must find their limits in each other. - My buddy Albert Camus

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  • [–] 2 points 4 months ago (2 children)

    Maybe it's because treating these amoral shitheads lightly has led us where we are today. They can't be rehabilitated. They have no interest in being better people. If they're eliminated they can't come back to fuck shit up for everyone else anymore. They're fundamentally broken human beings and should be discarded.

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  • [–] 1 point 4 months ago* (1 child)

    I don’t disagree, but we shouldn’t kid ourselves by getting rid of them in the name of some abstract value like revenge or justice. It should be a means of getting rid of what essentially amounts to a disease in humanity, nothing more. Pulling the lever in the trolley problem, basically.

    We also can’t really say that getting rid of the current one-percent will solve the problem once and for all. As far as human civilization has existed there’s always been a group like that. There needs to be systematic prevention of such a group ever coming about in the first place.

    If there’s no immediate resolution that we can all definitively see to the problem of disproportionate distribution of wealth, then nobody will be able to agree on when to stop the correctional acts. I mean, who’s to say when justice has been served? Hardly anyone can agree on what justice even is when it comes down to it, considering how it’s a concept that only really exists in human imagination. The French Revolution was great until the revolutionaries basically went nuts and started killing almost anyone who so much as criticized their methods. That shouldn’t be a possibility.

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  • [–] 3 points 4 months ago (2 children)

    Yeah, the violence would be in the name of justice and retribution!

    The chimpanzee method, as you call it, is the best form of justice for those sub-human billionaire and multi-millionaire urchins who kill, rape, and eat children.

    Unless, of course, you're okay with that form of violence? Are you okay with the violence inherent in the capitalist system?

    Like where do you draw the line for violence and retribution?

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  • [–] 4 points 4 months ago* (1 child)

    Don’t put words in my mouth, they taste too salty.

    To an extent violence is an effective tool: that I can definitely agree with. There’s never been any social progress without blood being shed on some level.

    It’s when it turns into a gratuitous means of communal catharsis that it becomes inherently counterintuitive by serving no other practical outcome than creating murderers and dehumanizers out of progressives. And these sub-humans and urchins you speak of are, whether you like it or not, extremely human, and even further than that are direct products of the societies that we’ve been complacent in for our entire lives and, likewise, we are also products of.

    So to answer your question clearly, I draw the line at violence when it’s in the name of the abstract: not only because I oppose things like the death penalty as a matter of principle, but because violence for an ideal or ideals is valuable to no one and nothing. No one gains anything material by destroying for the sake of it. It’s just that: destructive. Something I wish we humans learned a long time ago, but I digress.

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  • [–] 18 points 4 months ago
    [–] 32 points 4 months ago (12 children)

    Have a number of big fans run at almost the same frequency, and you get an onslaught of waves at the differences of those frequencies.

    As they are all nearly the same speed/frequency, the differences will be infrasound, which causes a lot of odd effects on people, like anxiety.

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  • [–] 12 points 4 months ago (11 children)

    So basically the data centers could alleviate their sound problems by having all their fans run at opposite frequencies to cancel our the sound through deconstructive interference

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  • [–] 4 points 4 months ago (3 children)
  • [–] 4 points 4 months ago (2 children)

    Isn't it really difficult to soundproof against the low frequency noises?

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  • [–] 2 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago) (1 child)

    Just use corrugated cardboard and with longer sine waves, duh!

    I am not an audio engineer but you might have a point in that the longer low sound waves would be harder to block.

    Where my audiophiles at? We need a sound check on low frequency blocking.

    Edit:
    Found an article on a crypto mining facility mitigating noise issues.

    https://noisemonitoringservices.com/data-center-noise-control/

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  • [–] 2 points 4 months ago (1 child)

    The problem is that you cannot get them synced sufficiently. You basically have to route the complete air flow through a padded chamber to dampen their own and the derived sounds.

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  • [–] 2 points 4 months ago

    Let's get a grant going and do some tests. Surely if you get a couple of jet engine generators next to each other and fiddle with their frequencies you can get some deconstructive interference. I suspect though that there might be some loss in efficiency, and no data center wants higher fuel costs. Only one way to find out though let's get this science funded

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  • [–] 2 points 4 months ago (2 children)

    No because the problem only exists because of differences in the frequencies the fans actually run at. If they all run it exactly the same frequency it would just be a loud hum which would be annoying but fine.

    So if they got control of their fan frequencies to the level necessary to do what your suggesting they could just have them all run at the same frequency anyway and alleviate the problem that way. But they won't because that kind of fan control isn't really possible.

    The real solution would be some kind of soundproofing and maybe not building massive data centres in populated areas.

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  • [–] 7 points 4 months ago

    This would be hell for me.

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  • [–] 5 points 4 months ago

    I'm surprised the 49ers haven't already built a data center right next to their stadium.

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  • [+] -6 points 4 months ago (2 children)

    While I'm not a fan of Big tech, but this surely is nonsense. Are they saying there are more vibrations than, say, living in New York? Near those train lines and billions of cars (and there are probably data centers there too).

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  • [–] 8 points 4 months ago (1 child)

    You better watch this video by Benn Jordan about exactly this issue: https://youtu.be/_bP80DEAbuo

    He measured the reported issue.

    Here is a timestamp witg the datacenrer noise isolated: https://youtu.be/_bP80DEAbuo?t=540

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  • [–] 1 point 4 months ago

    I'd be really hesitant with Benn's videos here. I think Andy Masley has a pretty solid piece describing how they are likely incorrect and possibly even deceptive. There's enough reasons to hate data center expansions and AI that I don't think it's particularly helpful to promote ideas like infrasound majorly affecting our health, as I'd think it dilutes some otherwise important arguments with things that are factually dubious.

    https://blog.andymasley.com/p/contra-benn-jordan-data-center-and

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  • [–] -4 points 4 months ago (7 children)

    This is so stupid I cant believe people fall for it

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  • [–] 6 points 4 months ago (1 child)

    What makes you assume this is bogus, when it's been shown repeatedly that it can negatively affect people. Just because you're not sensitive to it, doesn't mean no one else is.

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  • [–] 1 point 4 months ago*

    This is the highlight from your link. The evidence just isnt there to support these claims about LFN maybe it will be one day but at the moment its not.

    If it were the case that this LFN was harmful we wouldnt be looking at datacenters for the major sources of this kind of noise.

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  • [–] 2 points 4 months ago (4 children)
  • [–] -3 points 4 months ago (2 children)

    Yeah none of that expertise is relevant here. I like Ben but this video has no substance.

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  • [+] -42 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago) (21 children)

    so same thing as for wind turbines then

    Edit: as in, they should not be built where people live because you can feel the vibrations and it has a measurable effect on your vascular health. i linked a paper.

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  • [–] 26 points 4 months ago (5 children)

    Wind turbines don't make infrasound like datacenters. While they do make some infrasound, it's less loud than datacenters, and most impostantly, doesn't get transmitted really far (air is pretty inefficient at transmitting infrasound).

    However, datacenters are louder, and have better mechanical connection with the ground. The ground is very good at transmitting infrasound, and it can even vibrate an entire building if the structure resonates. This effect is not new, and we've also seen it with other industrial buildings with heavy machinery. Furthermore, due to regulations, you can't build as close to a wind farm as you can to a datacenter.

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  • [–] 1 point 4 months ago

    I noticed this effect when city buses were idling about a block away from my old house. It would hit just right (just wrong?) on a really noticable resonance frequency for that place. It used to make it hard to fall asleep if I went to bed after midnight.

    I don't notice weird vibrations like that much at my current address, fortunately.

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  • [–] -3 points 4 months ago (3 children)

    that's why i mean it's the same thing. don't build them near people. we know ground-transferred infrasound is bad for your health.

    as for louder, idk. i worked next to a facebook dc for years, it was eerily quiet.

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  • [–] 16 points 4 months ago (3 children)

    There's tons of evidence for data centers, but I've never heard the same for wind turbines. Do you have a source?

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  • [–] 4 points 4 months ago (1 child)

    Can confirm I have seen tons of articles over the years of residents complaining about low frequency hum from wind turbines. Just Google it. In comments sections, it generally gets written off as bullshit or the residents just hating clean energy. Now the same scenario comes up for data centers and people want to accept it as a legitimate problem.

    I dunno, but maybe being exposed to a constant non-stop noise that never turns off might not be good for humans, no matter what the source is.

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  • [–] 1 point 4 months ago

    To be fair, wind turbines have a positive use for society, while all these AI data centers do not. Proximity to communities should be considered in both situations though, but the data center push is far greater right now, especially considering that the dumbasses pushing this shit are also shitting on wind turbines and pushing far more destructive energy sources.

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  • [–] 9 points 4 months ago (9 children)

    I would love to see your explanation for why wind turbines have as much a negative impact on people's health as hyperscale data centers.

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  • [–] 5 points 4 months ago (8 children)

    apparently low-frequency noise causes heart rate variations. https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-021-97107-8

    the conclusion is the same for both things too: don't build them where people live.

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  • [–] 1 point 4 months ago (5 children)

    From the first scimming, I would not give much credit to that study. Only 29 participants. But most importantly it was not double blind. The participants where instructed on what exactly the study wanted to find out and could easily see, how far they where from the wind turbine at the testing sides. Thats a programmed placebo effect.

    Also: They only measured at 2 sites. The outdoor site was only 20m from the wind turbine. That is a distance not even relevant to placement of wind turbines. The safety distance to the spinning blades will already be significantly higher, at least 100m. So the measurement at that side might be interesting, but irrelevant.

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  • [–] 1 point 4 months ago (4 children)

    yeah it's not very good. but it's one study of many and it was more to show that people are actually having issues with them.

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  • [–] 1 point 4 months ago (3 children)

    Thats not what it is effectively saying though. It says, that if you suggest, that infrasound from wind turbines is a medical problem, then people will have medical problems. That is the nocebo effect for you, not infrasound.

    Also: There are many other sources of infrasound in our lifes. For example using a car. Wind turbines at typical distances are about 75db while driving in a car is more like 100db. If you open one of the rear windows while driving 130db. Where are the adverse effects of these?

    You might want to look at these https://julkaisut.valtioneuvosto.fi/handle/10024/162329 https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fpubh.2014.00220/full#h11

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  • [–] 1 point 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago) (2 children)

    most people aren't driving 24 hours a day though.

    also, that finnish experiment had only 26 self-selected participants so the same argument applies.

    not that this lends any credence to the "wind turbines are harmful"-side, either; that was never what i was driving at. i pointed out that the article makes the same claims about dc's as the paper i linked did about wind turbines.

    someone else pointed out that even though the claims about their effects lack merit, *we still build them away from people". which is what i think we should do to dc's as well, for the same reasons.

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  • [–] 1 point 4 months ago (1 child)

    Ok, then I misunderstood your arguments. I understood "Away from people" an argument for increasing the distance to wind turbines. They are already normally build 500 to 1500m away from people. I also saw it in my local context. In germany we had the conservatives argue for increasing the mandated distances further, triggered by the far rights hate for renewables, which would make it impossible to build them in large parts of the country.

    When we talk about wind turbines vs datacenters, I think a big argument is the actual direct value for the community. Providing clean energy gives more and direct value to a community, while the AI datacenter are mainly bringing the benefit of slop. Both are done in the capitalism way, but Datacenters (especially AI DCs) are way farther away from the consumer.

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  • [–] 0 points 4 months ago

    For those speaking german, I'm linking to a podcast episode of the Quarks Science Cops (Public Broadcast) about this topic. Link to Youtube

    Spoiler: We already have way louder infrasound producers near us. Wind turbines are already build in quite a distance to be safe from flying debris in case of a catastrophic mechanical breakdown of the spinning blades.

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