AskewLord comments on How 'Active Clubs' use male bonding, fitness and other healthy activities as a trojan horse for extremism

How 'Active Clubs' use male bonding, fitness and other healthy activities as a trojan horse for extremism (rachelgilmore.substack.com)

submitted 7 months ago by Sunshine@piefed.ca to c/canada@lemmy.ca

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[+] AskewLord@piefed.social -8 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago) (38 children)

liberal leftist discourse generally approaches men with the assumption they are already awful and must be reformed. especially if you are white and working-class. You are an ignorant sexist horrible person, until you have jumped through their hoops and read the relevant literature.

the white working-class guy is painted as a prototypical right-wing/nazi type, so if you have any of these traits, you are 'guilty' by default in the eyes of leftists. esp fediverse leftists.

ego stoking is how you get anyone to join your side. leftists blame other people for their own issues too, and stokes up their base by saying they are the only 'good' people.

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[–] SimpleMath@piefed.ca 26 points 7 months ago (37 children)

As a white working class man leftists are great. I never have to explain myself and they accept me as I am.

I've never felt that I was portrayed any particular way by leftist discourse. Much of what we talk about is how to make the country better for working class Canadians. As should not be a shock, most leftist are working class, most are white. We're largely a white working class country.

Neo Nazis approach young men who are confused and angry about their lot in life and give them simple answers. They're not meeting them where they are, they're flattering them by pretending the world is conspiring to destroy white men.

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[+] AskewLord@piefed.social -18 points 7 months ago* (36 children)

I spent 3 years in uni being screamed at, in my face often, about how awful I was for being white and working class guy. Glad you didn't have that experience? But plenty of men do. But it was really hard not to become totally alienated by that. A few times I was threatened physically, because I 'don't look leftist', whatever the fuck that means. I still occasionally have some nutbags approach me and scream at me about my perceived politics based on how I look.

The left needs to give people simple answers and stop pushing convoluted narratives about how how being white and male is inherently awful and oppressive and you must be 'reformed' of your whiteness and maleness.

More economics, less identity politics.

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[–] HikingVet@lemmy.ca 18 points 7 months ago (10 children)

The left needs to give people simple answers

How is tax the rich at the same rate as everyone else difficult?

How is universal healthcare convoluted?

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[+] AskewLord@piefed.social -12 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago) (9 children)

You seem to be confusing leftism in general with economic leftism. they aren't the same thing.

leftists in general, esp the vocal ones here on lemmy, tend to be authoritarians. They think taxing the rich and universal health care are neoliberalism/shitlib positions and we need to 'tear the system' down rather than reform it as a social democracy.

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[–] HikingVet@lemmy.ca 13 points 7 months ago* (8 children)

I'm sorry those two things are separate how?

Your sample size and methodology is suspect. Can you share more data other than "I feel"?

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[+] AskewLord@piefed.social -8 points 7 months ago* (7 children)

No. Personal experience isn't science. Your demand that I provide scientific proof of personal experience is absurd and just your bad faith way to totally dismiss it.

Can you prove to me with a scientific argument and data that you are leftist? Or that you are a true leftist? Or am I just supposed to 'believe' your self-reporting? I'm confident your sample size for your political beliefs and experiences consists of one.

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[–] HikingVet@lemmy.ca 10 points 7 months ago* (6 children)

You've made claims, I asked you to provide information that backs it up.

So you're here spouting the same lines that right wing podcasters did a decade ago with about as much backing you.

Be better than rethoric that is a decade old.

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[–] AskewLord@piefed.social -5 points 7 months ago* (5 children)

because it's true.

you are delusional if you think there aren't hateful awful people on the left who think violence is a means to an end of theor political and social goals. lots of leftists here are insane people with insane views, that are often pro-violence, and pro-hatred. lots of those leftists are swept up hateful narratives about men, the working-class, and other identity group bullshit that they ironically also cling to as a means of asserting their own political/moral superiority.

being left/right has nothing to do with being a shitty and violent person. if you think it does, well I will assume you are one of the leftists who think's violence and hatred are totally justified as long as it's against your 'enemies'.

and that's cool man. go be an leftist extremist if you want. but if you pretend that it's only a problem when the right wing does it, you're no different than the right wingers you hate.

and your argument is guilt by assocation. 'oh this other person said this thing i don't like so therefore you are bad'. No. Right, and if right-wingers went on about how rape is bad, would any woman who talked about her expereince being raped also now be a right-winger? Jesus.

Frankly, I am talking about people exactly like you. You are the type of hateful angry leftist who is alienating people from your cause. Who dismiss and attack and harass anyone who doesn't fit your overly simplistic narrative, with your crappy bad faith 'arguments'. You take the 'prove it' flat earther bullshit approach, because it makes you feel BIG and SMART, because you're completely the opposite.

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[–] HikingVet@lemmy.ca 6 points 7 months ago* (4 children)

Wah wah wah, bla bla bla.

Your rethoric is bad and you should feel bad.

You've made claims and provided no backing data.

Why should I entertain any idea you spout if you are unwilling to substantiate them?

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[–] AskewLord@piefed.social -2 points 7 months ago* (3 children)

my data is the same place yours is.

all you can do is resort to harassment and name-calling. and you wonder why young men don't want to hang out with leftists like yourself... lol you are the very problem the OG article talks about. Of course you would flip out at me and take it personally and your entire arguement is just 'no that never happened and you can't prove to me it did so i am smarter than you'

Just stick your head in the sand and smell your own farts like a good little leftist. than piss and moan as the right takes more and more power from you because they reach out to people and win them over.

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[–] HikingVet@lemmy.ca 2 points 7 months ago (2 children)

I haven't called you names. I have made no claims in this exchange.

I have not told you my political leanings but you've had opinions on them.

No wonder you think everyone is hostile. You don't actually listen to them.

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[–] AskewLord@piefed.social -2 points 7 months ago (1 child)

Yes you have. Your own blindness to your rudeness and harassment is mind-blowing. Nothing you do is wrong, deny deny deny. call other people names and demean them.

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[–] HikingVet@lemmy.ca 1 point 7 months ago

Screen cap and show me.

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[–] SimpleMath@piefed.ca 15 points 7 months ago (12 children)

No you didn't. That's absurd.

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[–] NSAbot@lemmy.ca 8 points 7 months ago (9 children)

More likely, they instigated hateful rhetoric and were called out on it. They didn’t understand that they were being called out for their hateful views and words so it’s easier to say, “they yelled at me because I’m a white cis man” when the truth would force introspection

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[–] SimpleMath@piefed.ca 5 points 7 months ago (7 children)

They also claim to be persecuted for their hobbies. I think they have some personal issues that makes them feel persecuted all the time. I have a friend like that, it's exhausting. Everyone really likes him but he thinks they don't. I think it's just internalized hatred.

I tried to talk to him about the way he talks about women. "You say things like women behave like this, or all women are like that, or I won't have women on my boat anymore because they don't listen". To which he complained I called him a piece of shit and that I obviously hate him. "I love you dude, it's harming your relationships and making your life harder, it's a thing you can work on, all you have to do is hear what I'm saying."

He can't do that though. He's just always already on edge because he constantly feels like he's being judged and he still doesn't realize the judging is coming from inside the house.

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[–] AskewLord@piefed.social -2 points 7 months ago* (6 children)

Or I'm used to dealing with twats who lecture me about myself who know nothing about me.

Like you. You know nothing about me, and yet you've created this elaborate fiction in your mind about my psychology, my past, and a bunch of other shit.

You are the type of person I'm talking about who gets up in others faces and lectures them about how 'wrong' based on a few random tidbits about them. I make a claim, and you now make it your mission to create an elaborate fictional story about me to discredit me. Just like the idiots who scream at me at uni who 'KNEW' that I was evil because I had white skin and a penis.

Maybe you should be the one shuts up and listens to people's stories and stops trying to discredit them because they don't fit your political agenda. Perhaps you should learn some grace and humility toward other human beings instead of chomping at the bit when they try to articulate that the people you hate are just as human as you, instead of pathologizing them as hopeless damaged until they espouse whatever BS you think is 'right' and 'healthy'.

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[–] ChairmanMeow@programming.dev 2 points 7 months ago (4 children)

You've come into this thread by making pretty inflammatory statements. When asked to explain, you provided a very barebones anecdote about how someone told you you were evil because you have a white penis. Others chimed in saying that this has never happened to them, despite also being owners of a white penis.

Instead of clarifying and providing more context, you've stuck to the very basic story, with zero details or context. Since the story sounds quite unlikely, this naturally casts suspicion on you, as it sounds like crucial details are left out. We're supposed to believe fairly extraordinary claims here, which usually requires at least some kind of evidence, or at least believable context.

So I don't think you should be surprised that when you accuse people of treating you poorly because you have a white penis, you're going to receive some pushback. And I don't think you can reasonably claim that that pushback is somehow evidence of people hating you because of the colour of your member.

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[–] AskewLord@piefed.social 0 points 7 months ago (3 children)

And all of what you said is a complete mischaracterization of my comments, to the point it seems you lack a basic comprehension of the English language.

I do understand. I understand that acknowledging the problematic behavior of leftists an their rhetoric, and how alienating it is to men, is not allowed because ti upsets the narrative that leftism is only ever good, and that the far right is only ever evil.

The far-right wins men over because it meets them where they are, and acknowledges the negativity in the world directed at them, and uses it to funnel them into the far-right. And they will win and win and win more over, until the left starts trying to acknowledge the legitimacy of their experiences and concerns, instead of engaging in a complete denial of them as being entirely dismiss-able based on their race and sex.

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[–] ChairmanMeow@programming.dev 1 point 7 months ago (2 children)

You said, and I'm quoting here:

I spent 3 years in uni being screamed at, in my face often, about how awful I was for being white and working class guy. Glad you didn't have that experience? But plenty of men do. But it was really hard not to become totally alienated by that. A few times I was threatened physically, because I 'don't look leftist', whatever the fuck that means. I still occasionally have some nutbags approach me and scream at me about my perceived politics based on how I look.

You're being challenged on this because the vast majority of white working class guys simply don't have this experience whatsoever. This whole "leftists screaming at your face"-thing seems to be pretty uniquely happening to you, not white men in general.

So this does beg the question: why do you have this experience when other white guys in this thread don't? You've immediately resorted to blaming leftists in general, but since others don't share your perception of leftists you're simply not very convincing.

It's like arguing that the far-right grows because the left shits on the street; nobody else seems to have seen this so people end up questioning your sincerity here.

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[–] AskewLord@piefed.social 1 point 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago) (1 child)

So you speak for the vast majority of working class white guys? Interesting.

The irony also being, the vast majority of working class white guys, don't go to college, let alone elite colleges.

Elite colleges where the far left ideologies that lemmyites adore, were created and established from which they spread.

Just because people don't see something personally or directly, is a shitty way of evaluating other people. I've never seen a woman be raped. Does that mean rape doesn't happen? That's the logic you keep employing.

Or maybe I understand that rape happens, because I've been raped... no! men don't get raped! that can't be! You must be a liar because most men don't get raped!

I'm blaming shitty people who hide behind their ideology because they think it's fool proof and perfect and wonderful. When it in fact, it's shit. It's the same stinky shit as the far-right, just inverted. Far right hates women, far left hates men. Far right hate immigrants, far left hates native citizens. and so on and so on. Anytime you argue with a far right nutjob, or a far left nutjob, they make the same arguments and resort to the same tactics of character assassination.

The far right grows because it reaches out to people. The far left basically sits around smelling it's own farts and claims they are all geniuses and they should never have to ever interact with non-leftists because they are all dirty and gross and wonders why more people aren't on their side.

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[–] ChairmanMeow@programming.dev 2 points 7 months ago

So you speak for the vast majority of working class white guys? Interesting.

I am merely making an observation in this thread, where so far your claims have been met with incredulity.

Elite colleges where the far left ideologies that lemmyites adore, were created and established from which they spread.

Left-wing ideology is famously a working-class ideology. Progressivism has taken hold in colleges, but leftism isn't a guarantee: just look at many conservative politicians who often graduated from the most elite schools (the Tories in the UK are often accused of being too "Eton-centered" for example).

Just because people don't see something personally or directly, is a shitty way of evaluating other people. I've never seen a woman be raped. Does that mean rape doesn't happen? That's the logic you keep employing.

But there are plenty of documented cases of rape happening. Lots of people know someone who was either sexually assaulted or raped. There's a lot of knowledge on how rapists behave and how rape happens. But this isn't the case for leftists accusing someone of being a bad person, for merely being white and working-class.

What is more commonly known is that people victimizing themselves online tend to understate their own role in a conflict, or leave out critical details that paint the context in a different light. Take the various YePowerTrippingBastards communities: it happens quite often that someone leaves out crucial details that significantly undermine the story they're telling.

This is why you're being met with severe skepticism. You're making some inflammatory accusations (leftists physically accosting people for being white and working-class), without evidence nor context, based on supposed repeat personal encounters. And I'm not saying that it didn't happen, but I am trying to explain why you're unlikely to be believed here. You also don't exactly paint yourself as an impartial participant when you make statements saying the left "hates men" and "hates native citizens".

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[–] Feathercrown@lemmy.world -2 points 7 months ago

I respect your willingness to defend yourself in here. I think your position is one that could be valuable to people on lemmy who are willing to listen.

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[–] AskewLord@piefed.social -2 points 7 months ago*

No, they yelled at me because they were horrible shitty people. Who think their leftist beliefs are so pure and good that they can do no wrong and anyone who remotely resembles what they don't like deserves to be assaulted. Let alone anyone who is critical of their absurdly pompous beliefs about themselves that they are saving the world by being angry and hateful.

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[+] AskewLord@piefed.social -9 points 7 months ago (1 child)

Or you are the typical head in the sand leftist who totally denies how highly problematic much of your cohort is.

Because if I wast a good leftist, that would never happen to me right? I must be a closeted Nazi, right?

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[–] SimpleMath@piefed.ca 10 points 7 months ago

I said I don't believe you, and in response you called yourself a nazi. I don't know what you are, but you seem to.

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[–] CileTheSane@lemmy.ca 4 points 7 months ago (7 children)

Glad you didn't have that experience? But plenty of men do.

As a white male I also have never had that experience. Not have any of my other white male friends.

For something apparently so common it's bizarre I've never seen it heard of a real case of it. Maybe there's a different reason that people were yelling at you?

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[–] AskewLord@piefed.social 0 points 7 months ago (4 children)

I've never been beating to death by the police. No black friend I've ever had has either!

Clearly all those black guys who died from being beaten by the police, are liars! They must have done something to deserve having their neck leaned on until they died of asphyxiation! They must have deserved it! All those videos and court cases are clearly all lies and misinformation.

This is your logic and argumentation.

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[–] CileTheSane@lemmy.ca 1 point 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago) (3 children)

So now white men are being beaten to death for being white males?

All those videos and court cases are clearly all lies and misinformation.

Fantastic point: where are the video and court cases about white men being attacked?

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[–] Feathercrown@lemmy.world 0 points 7 months ago

Username does not check out

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[–] AskewLord@piefed.social -1 points 7 months ago (1 child)

You completely missed the point.

All you care about is your agenda and you will ignore all testimony to the contrary as fake and false. Just like a MAGA.

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[–] CileTheSane@lemmy.ca 3 points 7 months ago

What point did I miss? I'm not going to play "guess the point", if there's a different point you're trying to make you need to state it.

All you care about is your agenda

What agenda is that?

You're making vague statements implying an argument but won't state what your argument is. This leads me to believe your argument is so fragile it wouldn't stand up to the scrutiny of being read.

you will ignore all testimony to the contrary

Some rando on social media isn't testimony. People lie on social media all the time. I asked for specific evidence and this is the response I get.

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[–] Feathercrown@lemmy.world -1 points 7 months ago (1 child)

Maybe there’s a different reason that people were yelling at you?

Must you resort to personal attacks? Why assume anyone who disagrees with you is only doing so because of a character flaw?

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[–] CileTheSane@lemmy.ca 2 points 7 months ago

Why assume anyone who disagrees with you is only doing so because of a character flaw?

When did I say anyone who disagrees with me has a character flaw? It has just been my experience that whenever someone complains that they are being discriminated against for being a white male, as soon as anyone looks into it turns out they got in trouble / got yelled at because of some action they had taken. As OP said: happens all the time.

Also note that saying "maybe that person was upset because of an action you had taken instead of the colour and shape of your genitals" is not a personal attack. I am neither condoning the yelling nor condemning some unknown action. I am presenting an alternative view to the scenario that has been presented with very little information.

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[–] howrar@lemmy.ca 1 point 7 months ago (3 children)

I don't know why everyone's so adamant that this can't happen. I don't see it that often, but at least in online spaces, I've definitely seen others being targeted for having the wrong genetics and not knowing enough about what life is like for those who look different from them. If you don't encounter any of this, then that's great. That's what we want, and there's probably nothing you can do differently to meaningfully change anything. But if we do see it, then it's our responsibility to curb this kind of behaviour.

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[–] AskewLord@piefed.social -3 points 7 months ago* (2 children)

because it violates their black and white world view that one one side is good and the other side is bad.

and when their sides doe shitty things, they start saying it can't be bad, it must be the victim of the shitty thing that is bad.

or put more simply, it's the view that anyone who doesn't agree with me is a Nazi.

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[–] SimpleMath@piefed.ca 4 points 7 months ago (1 child)

It's because you specifically are very obviously a liar. You didn't spend three years being shouted at in university, it's a crazy claim.

Are there shitty leftists, yes, leftists are people and people have flaws. The idea that the entire community is just people telling at white guys is a fabrication. It's a fabrication pushed by people who want to excite hate on the internet. That's why the conversation only ever happens on the internet. Make community and find help.

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[–] AskewLord@piefed.social -4 points 7 months ago*

Except when you join communities and they tell you to fuck off for having a penis and how you have 'stolen' your position from someone more deserving than you. Or how your very presence, going about your business bothering nobody, is 'problematic'. Because you don't count towards their diversity quota, even though you do because you're poor. But admitting poor people isn't something good... you have to be poor and queer so we can market you on social media and score virtue signal points.

The funny thing about the entire discourse about white guys is that they assume you are rich, and they want you if you are rich because they want your money. But as soon as anyone finds out you aren't going to join their community and donate all your money, they expect you to fuck off because you are worthless to them. You are a drain on the system if you need help, and that 'help' only has worth if you are non-male and non-white. Poor white guys are basically told to fuck off and die because they only want to only help non-men and non-white people.

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