moriquende comments on I dunno

[–] moriquende@lemmy.world 2 points 10 months ago (21 children)

Lmao citing yourself and assuming you're correct and smarter than everyone who programs solvers, even those who are known to be respectable and used extensively in academia. Nothing's been established cause you've cited sources that don't support your argument, and repeating them again and again won't make it different. Good day bro, continuing this is useless.

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[–] SmartmanApps@programming.dev 0 points 10 months ago* (20 children)

Lmao citing yourself

Nope! I cite Maths textbooks here, here, here, here, here, here, here, a calculator here, need I go on? 🙄 There's plenty more of them

assuming you’re correct and smarter than everyone who programs solvers,

That's hilarious that you think random programmers know more about Maths than a Maths professional 😂

even those who are known to be respectable and used extensively in academia

As I already stated, everyone knows the complete opposite of that about them. It's hilarious that you're trying to prop up places that give both right and wrong answers to the exact same expression as somehow being "respectable". 😂 And you'll see at the end of that thread - if you decide to read it this time - the poof that academia does not use it (because they know it spits out random answers)

Nothing’s been established cause you’ve cited sources that don’t support your argument

BWAHAHAHAAH! Like?? 😂

repeating them again and again won’t make it different.

That's right, the Maths textbooks are still as correct about it as the first time I cited them.

continuing this is useless

Well it is when you don't bother reading the links, which you've just proven is the case

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[–] moriquende@lemmy.world 1 point 10 months ago (19 children)

I've read everything you've posted, but the problem is you're interpreting the texts in such a way that they support your flawed argument, conveniently ignoring what they're actually saying, such as "if" statements.

Even this textbook that you yourself posted goes against what you're saying if you just bother to look at it outside of your tunnel vision:

Notice something?

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[–] SmartmanApps@programming.dev 0 points 10 months ago (18 children)

I’ve read everything you’ve posted

You've read every textbook, and looked at the calculator answer? Yeah nah, you clearly haven't.

you’re interpreting the texts in such a way that they support your flawed argument

Says person who can't come up with any textbooks that support their argument. 😂 BTW if you had looked at the calculator, you would've seen it does it exactly as I have described - 6/2(1+2)=6/2(3)=6/(2x3)=6/6=1, not, you know, 6/2(1+2)=3(3)=9, which is your flawed argument

conveniently ignoring what they’re actually saying, such as “if” statements

Says person ignoring this "if" statement which says you literally must distribute if you want to remove the brackets.

Even this textbook that you yourself posted goes against what you’re saying

No it doesn't! 😂

Notice something?

Yes, you ignored the Distribution in the last step 😂 I have no idea what you think is significant about the first 2 steps, other than you were trying to draw attention away from the Distribution in the last step

Here's another one (different authors) that does the same thing, which you would've seen if you had actually read all the textbooks I posted, but they explicitly spell out what they're doing as they're doing it...

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[–] moriquende@lemmy.world 1 point 10 months ago (17 children)

Yep I have looked at all you've posted, I say you're wrong because what you've posted says things that are true, but you're reading them wrong. For example your last image clearly says a number next to a bracket means the content of the bracket must be multiplied with said number. Nowhere there does anybody speak of distribution taking precedence over other operations. In fact, nowhere in all sources I can find does it say so. Wonder why all screenshots you post use convoluted wording and wonder why you pop up everywhere arguing the same thing and keep getting downvoted? At some point you need to understand that if one old-ass calculator and selective reading of cherry picked passages is all the proof you have, when all modern calculators and algebra solvers go against you, maybe it's time to reconsider.

Juxtaposition taking precedence over other multiplications I can understand and it's an arguable point. Distribution being a mandatory step and taking precedence over even exponents is just silly and unfortunately wrong.

Also another thing: you're a math teacher as you've said, and consistently ask if I think "random programmers" know more about algebra than you. What I say to that is I've met plenty of teachers who are wrong about things in their own fields, for one. And also, people defining the rules of all those algebra solvers aren't the programmers, as you'd know if you looked a bit into product development. It's domain experts, who also define tests and receive feedback on the software's performance and errors. I'm sure (lol) you've sent feedback to them, and they probably looked at it and decided you're wrong. As well all have.

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[–] SmartmanApps@programming.dev 0 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago) (16 children)

you’re reading them wrong

says the person who is actually reading them wrong, who is unable to cite any example of me reading it wrong

clearly says a number next to a bracket means the content of the bracket must be multiplied with said number

the content of the bracket - you just quoted that yourself and still completely missed what that means 😂

Nowhere there does anybody speak of distribution taking precedence over other operations

BRACKETS has precedence over everything 😂 So here we have an example of you reading it wrong

nowhere in all sources I can find does it say so

And can you find any source which says Multiplication takes precedence over Brackets? No. Another example of you reading it wrong

Wonder why all screenshots you post use convoluted wording

They don't use "convoluted wording"! 🤣

"the contents OF THE BRACKETS should be multiplied"

"everything IN THE BRACKET should be multiplied by that number"

Yet another example of you reading it wrong 😂

wonder why you pop up everywhere arguing the same thing and keep getting downvoted?

The only person downvoting me is the person replying, whereas the others are getting downvoted by others as well 🙄

At some point you need to understand that if one old-ass calculator

My brand new Casio calculator gives the same answer! 😂 They all do now, except for Texas Instruments - the only one stubbornly still doing it wrongly

selective reading of cherry picked passages

Sure, I'm "cherry picking" the sections of textbooks about Distribution. Do you want me to post something random about a different topic? 😂 BTW, noted that you haven't come up with any textbooks that agree with you

all the proof you have

And it is indeed proof.

when all modern calculators

Agree with me (except for Texas Instruments)

algebra solvers

Written by programmers who have forgotten the rules of Maths, and as pointed out by many people in forums.

maybe it’s time to reconsider

And yet, here you are not reconsidering 🙄

Juxtaposition taking precedence over other multiplications I can understand

Because BRACKETS - ab=(axb) BY DEFINITION 😂

it’s an arguable point

And is also the exact same rule 🙄

Distribution being a mandatory step

There's a reason it's called The Distributive Law

taking precedence over even exponents is just silly

BRACKETS taking precedence over Exponents is "silly"?? 🤣🤣🤣

and unfortunately wrong

BRACKETS taking precedence over Exponents is "unfortunately wrong"?? 🤣🤣🤣

What I say to that is I’ve met plenty of teachers who are wrong about things in their own fields,

You think they're wrong you mean, person who is saying Brackets before Exponents is "wrong" 🤣🤣🤣

people defining the rules of all those algebra solvers aren’t the programmers,

Yes they are! That's why they give wrong answers 😂 I told one he was wrong and he went and fixed it, being the one who had programmed it that way 🙄

as you’d know if you looked a bit into product development.

I know they are because I have spoken directly to them 😂 Maybe try asking some yourself, before making completely wrong statements

It’s domain experts

No it isn't, as proven by personal experience. You know who uses domain experts? calculator manufacturers. 😂 They have considerably more riding on it being right or not.

who also define tests and receive feedback on the software’s performance and errors

You know there's a whole bunch of programmers who don't bother even defining tests to begin with, right??

I’m sure (lol) you’ve sent feedback to them

Yep!

they probably looked at it and decided you’re wrong

Except for the ones who did change it. The ones who claimed I was wrong, quoted Google - who have also been told they're wrong by many people -and not Maths textbooks 🙄

As well all have.

says person who did nothing of the sort, and lied about such things as "all modern calculators " being against me (they aren't, if you had actually tried some), Exponents having precedence over Brackets, etc.

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[–] moriquende@lemmy.world 1 point 10 months ago (15 children)

Here you go:

Please post a source that gives a different answer to this expression, I'll wait.

There's of course programmers that implement their own projects, but for big monetized products that's no longer the case. I'm in the software industry myself and have worked extensively in product development.

Sure bro you have multiple downvotes in many posts, I'm sure it's the person you're arguing with logging in with multiple accounts lol.

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[–] SmartmanApps@programming.dev 0 points 10 months ago (14 children)

Here you go

Yep, that's an old Casio model, Mr. "All modern calculators", proving yet again that you can't back up your own statements 😂

Please post a source that gives a different answer to this expression, I’ll wait.

No need to wait - just scroll back through this thread and look at all the sources I already posted 🙄

for big monetized products that’s no longer the case

You know none of the calculators you're referring to are commercial right? They're all free to use, and that tells you how much effort was put into them. The only e-calc I've ever seen give a correct answer is MathGPT, which is indeed commercial now (I tried it before it went commercial), so we have a commercial e-calc giving the correct answer, and all the free ones giving the wrong answer 😂

I’m in the software industry myself

So am I in case you didn't notice 😂

you have multiple downvotes in many posts

I've never seen more than 2 on any, Mr. Needs To Exaggerate Because Has No Actual Evidence Of Being Right 😂

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[–] moriquende@lemmy.world 1 point 10 months ago (13 children)

You realize a calculator doesn't need to be a dedicated hardware, right? Windows calculator, MacOS calculator, Android calculator, and all web-based calculators count as well.

You have no clue what you're talking about. Wolfram Alpha is a commercial product (with a free-tier as is usual nowadays) and uses the same engine as Mathematica, which is used extensively in industry, academic institutions, and government agencies.

None of your sources has exponents in them, and that's very convenient for your mistake of mixing up juxtaposition and your invented rule.

Btw, ask yourself this as well: why would your invented interpretation of distributive law be necessary at all? It brings no benefit to the table at all. Juxtaposition arguably does, because it allows shorter notation, but your invention doesn't.

Please find a calculator that gives a result different to 128 for the expression 2(3+5)². You won't be able to, because it's the only correct answer. If you don't post a reproducible example of a solver anywhere coming to a different solution, I'll consider your argument defeated and ignore further engagement from your part. Have a nice day!

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[–] SmartmanApps@programming.dev 0 points 10 months ago (12 children)

You realize a calculator doesn’t need to be a dedicated hardware, right?

You realise the calculator manufacturers have much more riding on their calculators being correct, right? 😂

Windows calculator, MacOS calculator, Android calculator, and all web-based calculators count as well.

Nope. Programmed by... programmers, who aren't earning any money from the calculator, and put the corresponding amount of effort into it.

You have no clue what you’re talking about.

says someone who just claimed that e-calcs count as much as actual, buy from a store, calculators 🤣

Alpha is a commercial product (with a free-tier as is usual nowadays)

Also well known to give wrong answers

uses the same engine as Mathematica, which is used extensively in industry, academic institutions

Nope! Academia warns against using it

None of your sources has exponents in them

In other words, you're admitting to trying to deflect from what's in Maths textbooks! 😂

that’s very convenient for your mistake of mixing up juxtaposition and your invented rule

It's the same rule, duh! Here it is in a textbook from more than 100 years ago when everything was still in brackets...

We've since then dropped the brackets from Factors which are a single Term. i.e. (a)(b+c) is now a(b+c), and (a)(b) is now ab. BTW would you like to explain how "my invented rule" appears in a textbook from more than 100 years ago? 🤣

Btw, ask yourself this as well: why would your invented interpretation of distributive law be necessary at all?

It's not invented, it's required as the reverse rule to Factorising, duh 😂 And I don't need to ask myself - as usual, all you have to do is look in Maths textbooks for the reason 😂

It brings no benefit to the table at all.

Being able to reverse the process of Factorising brings no benefit to the table?? 🤣

Juxtaposition arguably does

It's the same thing duh 🤣 ab=(a)(b), a(b+c)=(a)(b+c) notice how they are the same thing, expanding BRACKETS?? 🤣

Maybe you've forgotten about FOIL...

Now, think carefully about this, what happens when b=0, and what happens when d=0, you got it yet?? 🤣

because it allows shorter notation

AKA Factorised Terms and Products 😂

your invention doesn’t.

Again, explain how "my invention" appears in textbooks that are more than 100 years old. I'll wait 🤣

because it’s the only correct answer

Have you noticed yet that everything you think is correct is actually wrong as per Maths textbooks?? 🤣

I’ll consider your argument defeated

says person who has been comprehensively defeated by Maths textbooks and is now trying to deflect away from that 🤣

ignore further engagement from your part

I'll take that as an admission that you're wrong then, having been unable to debunk any Maths textbooks. See ya

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[–] moriquende@lemmy.world 1 point 10 months ago (11 children)

Please find a calculator that gives a result different to 128 for the expression 2(3+5)². Should be easy, no?

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[–] SmartmanApps@programming.dev 0 points 10 months ago (10 children)

Please find a calculator that gives a result different to 128 for the expression 2(3+5)². Should be easy, no?

Please find a Maths textbook that backs that up as being the correct answer. i.e. Exponents before Brackets. Should be easy, no? 🤣

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[–] moriquende@lemmy.world 1 point 10 months ago (9 children)

Nobody has argued exponents should go before brackets.

I'm saying distribution being mandatory is an invented rule from your part.

No wonder you can't produce such a simple request. I thought you had calculators that work "correctly"?

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[–] SmartmanApps@programming.dev 0 points 10 months ago (8 children)

Nobody has argued exponents should go before brackets

You did! 😂 You said 2(3+5)²=2(8)²=2(64), which is doing the Exponent when there are still unsolved Brackets 😂

I’m saying distribution being mandatory is an invented rule from your part

You still haven't explained how it's in 19th Century textbooks if I "made it up"! 😂

If you don't remember Roman Numerals either, that's 1898

No wonder you can’t produce such a simple request.

says person who still hasn't produced a single textbook that supports anything that they say, and it's such a simple request 😂

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[–] moriquende@lemmy.world 1 point 10 months ago (7 children)

Unsolved brackets

Solving brackets does not include forced distribution. Juxtaposition means multiplication, and as such, 2(3+5)² is the same as 2*(3+5)², so once the brackets result in 8, they're solved.

Distribution needs to happen if you want to remove the brackets while there are still multiple terms inside, but it's still a part of the multiplication. You can't do it if there is an exponent, which has higher priority.

Your whole argument hangs on the misinterpretation of textbooks. This is what it feels like to argue against Bible fanatics lmao.

Tell you what, provide me a solver that says 2(3+5)² is 256 and you've won, it's so easy no?

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[–] SmartmanApps@programming.dev 0 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago) (6 children)

Solving brackets does not include forced distribution

Yes it does! 😂

Juxtaposition means multiplication,

No, it doesn't. A Product is the result of Multiplication. If a=2 and b=3, axb=ab, 2x3=6, axb=2x3, ab=6. 3(x-y) is 1 term, 3x-3y is 2 terms...

as such, 2(3+5)² is the same as 2*(3+5)²

No it isn't. 2(3+5)² is 1 term, 2x(3+5)² is 2 terms

so once the brackets result in 8

They don't - you still have an undistributed coefficient, 2(8)

they’re solved

Not until you've Distributed and Simplified they aren't

Distribution needs to happen if you want to remove the brackets

if you want to remove the brackets, YES, that's what the Brackets step is for, duh! 😂 The textbook above says to Distribute first, then Simplify.

while there are still multiple terms inside

As in 2(8)=(2x8) and 2(3+5)=(6+10) is multiple Terms inside 😂

it’s still a part of the multiplication

Nope! The Brackets step, duh 😂 You cannot progress until all Brackets have been removed

which has higher priority.

It doesn't have a higher priority than Brackets! 🤣

Your whole argument hangs on the misinterpretation of textbooks

says person who can't cite any textbooks that agree with them, so their whole argument hangs on all Maths textbooks are wrong but can't say why, 😂 wrongly calls Products "Multiplication", and claimed that I invented a rule that is in an 1898 textbook! 🤣 And has also failed to come up with any alterative "interpretations" of "must" and "Brackets" that don't mean, you know, must and brackets 😂

This is what it feels like to argue against Bible fanatics

says the Bible fanatic, who in this case can't even show me what it says in The Bible (Maths textbooks) that agrees with them 😂

provide me a solver that says 2(3+5)² is 256 and you’ve won, it’s so easy no?

provide me a Maths textbook that says 8/2(1+3)=16 and you’ve won, it’s so easy no? 🤣

And in the meantime, here's one saying it's 1, because x(x-1) is a single Term...

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[–] moriquende@lemmy.world 1 point 10 months ago (5 children)

https://youtu.be/xoZzHMoB5qA

This is a college textbook, and that explains how to solve it.

Another example: https://stemjock.com/STEM%20Books/OpenStax%20CA%202e/Chapter%201/Section%201/OSCACh1s1e32.pdf

Alternatively, here is another example: https://www.kingphilip.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/07/Supplemental_Topics_from_Algebra_1.pdf

In case you can't find the correct part:

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[–] SmartmanApps@programming.dev 0 points 10 months ago (4 children)

This is a college textbook, and that explains how to solve it

It's a college refresher course on high school Maths. They also forgot to cover The Distributive Law, which is not unusual given college Professors don't actually teach high school Maths.

Another example

From the same refresher course 🙄

Alternatively, here is another example

Which also doesn't cover The Distributive Law, which isn't surprising given that chapter isn't even about order of operations! 😂

In case you can’t find the correct part

Still not about a(b+c). You lot are investing so much effort into such an obvious False Equivalence argument it's hilarious! 😂

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[–] moriquende@lemmy.world 2 points 10 months ago

Don't move the goalposts. I've posted textbooks showing that "solving brackets" only applies to the inside, and distribution is part of multiplication and optional.

You've said yourself your magic rule is taught in highschool, so a refresher course in college would never ignore it.

Now instead of giving weak excuses, provide your part of the proof. And I'm not talking about multiplication, I want to see anywhere where a distribution is given precedence over an exponent.

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[–] mindbleach@sh.itjust.works 0 points 10 months ago (2 children)

If 5(4)^2^ is 5*16 then 2(8)^2^ is 2*64.

I get a free hoagie.

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[–] SmartmanApps@programming.dev 0 points 10 months ago (1 child)

Don’t move the goalposts

I didn't. You're the one who has been desperately trying to make a False Equivalence argument between a(b+c) and a(bc)² 🙄

I’ve posted textbooks showing that “solving brackets” only applies to the inside,

No you haven't. A college refresher isn't a Maths textbook, and I already pointed out to you that they don't mention The Distributive Law at all, unlike, you know, high school Maths textbooks 🙄

distribution is part of multiplication

And the high school Maths textbooks I posted prove you are wrong about that 🙄

and optional

And the high school Maths textbooks I posted prove you are wrong about that too, 🙄 unless you think "optional" is a valid interpretation of what "must" means 😂

You’ve said yourself your magic rule is taught in highschool,

Yep

so a refresher course in college would never ignore it

And yet you proved that they did in fact forget about it 🙄

Now instead of giving weak excuses

they say to person who has been backed up by every textbook they posted so far 😂

provide your part of the proof.

Just scroll back dude - they're all still there, like here for example.

And I’m not talking about multiplication

Well that'll be a nice change then 😂

I want to see anywhere where a distribution is given precedence over an exponent

Because you are hell bent on making a False Equivalence argument between a(b+c) and a(bc)². I don't care dude. there is no exponent in the meme. I'll take that as an admission that you are wrong about a(b+c) then.

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[–] mindbleach@sh.itjust.works 1 point 10 months ago

Who are you talking to?

All I said was: If 5(4)^2^ is 5*16, like this college math textbook shows, then 2(8)^2^ is 2*64.

Every published example will agree this is how it works. None, at any level of education, will agree with your bullshit.

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