I dunno (piefed.cdn.blahaj.zone)
 

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[–] 323 points 11 months ago (113 children)

I feel like I am getting trolled

Isn't 17 the actual right answer?

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  • [–] 162 points 11 months ago (7 children)
  • [–] 128 points 11 months ago (6 children)

    So it's just an unfunny meme?

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  • [–] 101 points 11 months ago (1 child)

    I think it's meant to play with your expectations. Normally someone's take being posted is to show them being confidently stupid, otherwise it isn't as interesting and doesn't go viral.However, because we're primed to view it from that lens, we feel crazy to think we're doing the math correctly and getting the "wrong answer" from what we assume is the "confident dipshit".

    There's layers beyond the superficial.

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  • [–] 36 points 11 months ago (42 children)

    Some people insist there's no "correct" order for the basic arithmetic operations. And worse, some people insist the correct order is parenthesis first, then left to right.

    Both of those sets of people are wrong.

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  • [–] 10 points 11 months ago* (25 children)

    Hopefully you can see where their confusion might come from, though. PEMDAS is more P-E-MD-AS. If you have a bunch of unparenthesized addition and subtraction, left to right is correct. A lot of like, firstgrader math problems are just basic problems that are usually left to right (but should have some extras to highlight PEMDAS somewhere I'd hope).

    So they're mostly telling you they only remember as much math as a small child that barely passed math exercizes.

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  • [–] 8 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago) (10 children)

    If you have a bunch of unparenthesized addition and subtraction, left to right is correct

    If you have a bunch of unparenthesized addition and subtraction, left to right doesn't matter.

    1 + 2 + 3 = 3 + 2 + 1

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  • [–] 4 points 11 months ago (3 children)

    True, but as with many things, something has to be the rule for processing it. For many teachers as I've heard, order of appearance is 'the rule' when commutative properties apply. ... at least until algebra demands simplification, but that's a different topic.

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  • [–] 4 points 11 months ago (1 child)

    something has to be the rule for processing it

    Well the rule is: any order goes. Summation is commutative.

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  • [–] 4 points 11 months ago*

    No, you completely misunderstood my point. My point is not to describe all valid interpretations of the commutative property, but the one most slow kids will hear.

    OFC the actual rule is the order doesn't matter, but kids that don't pick up on the nuance of the commutative property will still remember, "order of appearance is fine".

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  • [–] -1 points 11 months ago (5 children)

    If you have a bunch of unparenthesized addition and subtraction, left to right doesn't matter.

    Right, because 1-2-3=3-2-1.

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  • [–] 2 points 11 months ago (3 children)

    You flipped the sign on the 3 and 1.

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  • [–] -1 points 11 months ago (2 children)

    I did not flip any signs, merely reversed the order in which the operations are written out. If you read the right side from right to left, it has the same meaning as the left side from left to right.

    Hell, the convention that the sign is on the left is also just a convention, as is the idea that the smallest digit is on the right (which should be a familiar issue to programmers, if you look up big endian vs little endian)

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  • [–] -2 points 10 months ago

    I did not flip any signs

    Yes you did! 😂

    merely reversed the order in which the operations are written out

    No, merely reversing the order gives -3-2+1 - you changed the signs on the 1 and 3.

    If you read the right side from right to left, it

    Starts with -3, which you changed to +3

    it has the same meaning as the left side from left to right

    when you don't change any of the signs it does 😂

    Hell, the convention that the sign is on the left is also just a convention

    Nope, it's a rule of Maths, Left Associativity.

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  • [–] 5 points 11 months ago (11 children)

    PE(MD)(AS)

    Now just remember to account for those parentheses first...

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  • [–] -2 points 10 months ago (10 children)

    PE(MD)(AS) Now just remember to account for those parentheses first

    Those Brackets don't matter. I don't know why people insist it does

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  • [–] 1 point 10 months ago (9 children)

    They do, it's grouping those operations to say that they have the same precedence. Without them it implies you always do addition before subtraction, for example.

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  • [–] -2 points 10 months ago* (8 children)

    They do, it’s grouping those operations to say that they have the same precedence

    They don't. It's irrelevant that they have the same priority. MD and DM are both correct, and AS and SA are both correct. 2+3-1=4 is correct, -1+3+2=4 is correct.

    Without them it implies you always do addition before subtraction, for example

    And there's absolutely nothing wrong with doing that, for example. You still always get the correct answer 🙄

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  • [–] 3 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago) (7 children)

    Uh, no. I don't think you've thought this through, or you're just using (AS) without realizing it. Conversations around operator precedence can cause real differences in how expressions are evaluated and if you think everyone else is just being pedantic or is confused then you might not underatand it yourself.

    Take for example the expression 3-2+1.

    With (AS), 3-2+1 = (3-2)+1 = 1+1 = 2. This is what you would expect, since we do generally agree to evaluate addition and subtraction with the same precedence left-to-right.

    With SA, the evaluation is the same, and you get the same answer. No issue there for this expression.

    But with AS, 3-2+1 = 3-(2+1) = 3-3 = 0. So evaluating addition with higher precedence rather than equal precedence yields a different answer.

    =====

    Some other pedantic notes you may find interesting:

    There is no "correct answer" to an expression without defining the order of operations on that expression. Addition, subtraction, etc. are mathematical necessities that must work the way they do. But PE(MD)(AS) is something we made up; there is no actual reason why that must be the operator precedence rule we use, and this is what causes issues with communicating about these things. People don't realize that writing mathematical expressions out using operator symbols and applying PE(MD)(AS) to evaluate that expression is a choice, an arbitrary decision we made, rather than something fundamental like most everything else they were taught in math class. See also Reverse Polish Notation.

    Your second example, -1+3+2=4, actually opens up an interesting can of worms. Is negation a different operation than subtraction? You can define it that way. Some people do this, with a smaller, slightly higher subtraction sign before a number indicating negation. Formal definitions sometimes do this too, because operators typically have a set number of arguments, so subtraction is a-b and negation is -c. This avoids issues with expressions starting with a negative number being technically invalid for a two-argument definition of subtraction. Alternatively, you can also define -1 as a single symbol that indicates negative one, not as a negation operation followed by a positive one. These distinctions are for the most part pedantic formalities, but without them you could argue that -1+3+2 evaluated with addition having a higher precedence than subtraction is -(1+3+2) = -6. Defining negation as a separate operation with higher precedence than addition or subtraction, or just saying it's subtraction and all subtraction has higher prexedence than addition, or saying that -1 is a single symbol, all instead give you your expected answer of 4. Isn't that interesting?

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  • [–] 1 point 10 months ago

    I'm honestly disappointed that you just downvoted and left. Challenging your beliefs with contrary ideas is the only way to improve them and understand the world in a more comprehensive and accurate way.

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  • [–] -1 points 10 months ago (4 children)

    you’re just using (AS) without realizing it

    as per the textbooks 🙄

    Conversations around operator precedence can cause real differences in how expressions are evaluated

    No they can't. The rules are universal

    you might not underatand it yourself

    says someone about to prove that they don't understand it... 😂

    With (AS), 3-2+1 = (3-2)+1 = 1+1 = 2

    Nope! With AS 3-2+1=+(3+1)-(2)=4-2=2

    This is what you would expect

    Yes, I expected you to not understand what AS meant 😂

    since we do generally agree to evaluate addition and subtraction with the same precedence left-to-right

    It's only a convention, not a rule, as just proven

    With SA, the evaluation is the same

    No it isn't. With SA 3-2+1=-(2)+(3+1)=-2+4=2

    you get the same answer

    Yep, because order doesn't matter 🙄 AS and SA both give the same answer

    No issue there for this expression

    Or any expression

    But with AS, 3-2+1 = 3-(2+1)

    You just violated the rules and changed the sign of the 1 from a + to a minus. 🙄 -(2+1)=-2-1, not -2+1. Welcome to how you got a wrong answer when you wrongly added brackets to it and mixed the different signs together

    So evaluating addition with higher precedence rather than equal precedence yields a different answer

    No it doesn't., as already proven. 3-2+1=+(3+1)-(2)=+4-2=2, same answer 🙄

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  • [–] 2 points 10 months ago* (3 children)

    Oh, it's you. I really want to have a good discussion about this, but it is not possible with your debate style. Once again, fragmenting your opponent's argument into a million partial statements and then responding to those is ineffective for several reasons:

    1. You fail to understand the argument your opponent is making, and so you do not learn anything by engaging with it. You must first understand to learn.

    2. By divorcing each partial statement from its surrounding context, you are likely to change its meaning, so you are no longer even responding to the meaning of what was said.

    3. You are not making a point of your own, which means you are less likely to figure out your own mental model. You are simply stating facts, opinions, or misunderstandings as if they are self-evidently true, without knowing why you believe them to be true.

    4. Expanding on point three, it's very easy to state two contradictory things without realizing it. For example, "No they can’t. The rules are universal" and "It’s only a convention, not a rule, as just proven".

    5. Also expanding on point three, this also makes it hard for people to find the mistakes you're making and correct them, because mistakes in your mental model are only visible through the statements you choose to make, which are incoherent when taken together. For example, I can see that you don't fully understand what I mean by "operator precedence", but this is not obvious from your main point, because you have no main point, because you do not understand what mine is.

    6. If your opponent also used this debate style, the argument takes hours and ends up entirely divorced from the initial meaning, completely destroying any hope of having the debate provide any actual value, ie. greater understanding.

    Please do not take these as insults; it's a long shot to fundamentally change someone's perspective like this in one post, but I would love if you saw the beauty of discussion. To bring it back to your original comment:

    Those Brackets don’t matter. I don’t know why people insist it does

    Understanding the purpose and methods of debate allows you to understand why people know the brackets matter.

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  • [–] -1 points 10 months ago (2 children)

    I really want to have a good discussion about this

    says person who deleted their previous post when I proved how wrong it was 😂

    it is not possible with your debate style

    There's no debate - the rules are in Maths textbooks, which you want to pretend don't exist

    You fail to understand the argument your opponent is making

    You haven't got one. That's why you keep pretending Maths textbooks don't exist

    By divorcing each partial statement from its surrounding context

    says person who deleted one of their posts to remove the context. 😂 The context is the rules of Maths, in case you needed to be reminded 😂

    you are likely to change its meaning

    Nope. I'm still talking about the rules of Maths 😂

    You are not making a point of your own

    Ok, so here you are admitting to comprehension problems. Which part did you not understand in addition and subtraction can be done in any order? 😂

    You are simply stating facts, opinions, or misunderstandings as if they are self-evidently true

    You left out backing it up with textbook screenshots and worked examples 😂

    without knowing why you believe them to be true.

    There's no belief involved. It's easy enough to prove it yourself by doing the Maths 😂

    it’s very easy to state two contradictory things without realizing it

    And yet I never have. Why do you think that is? 😂

    “No they can’t. The rules are universal”

    Which is correct

    “It’s only a convention, not a rule, as just proven”

    Which is also correct, and in no way contradicts the previous point, and I have no idea why you think it does! 😂 The first point is about the rules, and the second point is about conventions, which isn't even the same thing

    this also makes it hard for people to find the mistakes

    That's because I'm not making any 😂

    I can see that you don’t fully understand what I mean by “operator precedence”

    Says person who in their other post claimed "addition first" for -1+3+2 is -(1+3+2) = -6, and not +(3+2)-1=4 😂

    If your opponent also used this debate style,

    Which you don't, given you have no evidence whatsoever to back up your points with 😂

    ends up entirely divorced from the initial meaning

    I've been on-point the whole time, and you keep trying to deflect from how wrong your statements are 😂

    Please do not take these as insults

    Well, obviously not, given I just proved they were all wrong 😂

    allows you to understand why people know the brackets matter.

    Except I've proven, repeatedly, that they don't, and so now you're trying to deflect from that (and deleted one of your posts to hide the evidence of how wrong you are) 😂

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  • [–] 2 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago) (1 child)

    I'm falling for the troll here but I feel compelled to point out that you did NOT read the post I deleted lmao. I deleted it because I posted it before you "responded" to my points. Go check it out, I just restored it.

    I should clarify that I haven't responded to your "points" because there is nothing worth responding to. Your arguments can all be debunked by reading https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Order_of_operations, so I didn't bother doing it myself.

    To avoid any further temptation to respond I will be blocking you. Your absence from my future will be greatly appreciated. I feel that the deleted post is in itself a very good final word to this disappointment of a "conversation" even if it is not entirely accurate. Goodbye.

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  • [–] 0 points 10 months ago

    I’m falling for the troll here

    Just as well for you I've provided all the necessary evidence to prove them wrong then

    I’m honestly disappointed that you just downvoted and left

    BWAHAHAHAHAHA! I DIDN'T leave, quite demonstrably.

    Challenging your beliefs with contrary ideas is the only way to improve them and understand the world in a more comprehensive and accurate way

    So how come you won't then?

    I should clarify that I haven’t responded to your “points” because there is nothing worth responding to

    In other words, you have been proven wrong by them

    Your arguments can all be debunked by reading https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Order_of_operations

    Wikipedia can be comprehensively debunked by MATHS TEXTBOOKS - you know, those things you refuse to look at because they prove you are wrong 😂

    I didn’t bother doing it myself.

    So in other words, Wikipedia is all you had, and, having been disproven by Maths textbooks, you've got nothing

    I will be blocking you

    An admission of defeat then

    I feel that the deleted post is in itself a very good final word to this disappointment of a “conversation”

    Feel free to unblock me when you're ready to take your own advice

    if it is not entirely accurate

    Just like all your other posts then

    Goodbye

    Don't let the door hit you on the way out

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  • [–] -1 points 10 months ago

    Some other pedantic notes you may find interesting

    It's hilarious that you added in this in afterwards, hoping I wouldn't see it so you could claim the last word 😂

    There is no “correct answer” to an expression without defining the order of operations on that expression

    There is only one order of operations, defined in many Maths textbooks.

    Addition, subtraction, etc. are mathematical necessities that must work the way they do

    Hence the order of operations rules, found in Maths textbooks

    But PE(MD)(AS) is something we made up

    PEMDAS actually, and yes, it's only a convention, not the rules themselves

    there is no actual reason why that must be the operator precedence rule we use

    That's why it's only a convention, and not a rule.

    this is what causes issues with communicating about these things.

    Nope, doesn't cause any issues - the rules themselves are the same everywhere, and all of the different mnemonics all work

    Your second example, -1+3+2=4, actually opens up an interesting can of worms

    No it doesn't

    so subtraction is a-b

    Just -b actually

    negation is -c

    Which is still subtraction, from 0, because every operation on the numberline starts from 0, we just don't bother writing the zero (just like we don't bother writing the + sign when the expression starts with an addition).

    a two-argument definition of subtraction

    Subtraction is unary operator, not binary. If you're subtracting from another number, then that number has it's own operator that it's associated with (and might be an unwritten +), it's not associated with the subtraction at all.

    you can also define -1 as a single symbol

    No you can't. You can put it in Brackets to make it joined to the minus sign though, like in (-1)²=1, as opposed to -1²=-1

    not as a negation operation followed by a positive one

    The 1 can't be positive if it follows a minus sign - it's the rule of Left Associativity 😂

    These distinctions are for the most part pedantic formalities

    No, they're just you spouting more wrong stuff 😂

    you could argue that -1+3+2 evaluated with addition having a higher precedence than subtraction is -(1+3+2) = -6

    No, you can't. Giving addition a higher priority is +(3+2)-1=+5-1=4, as per Maths textbooks...

    Isn’t that interesting?

    No, all of it was wrong, again 😂

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  • [–] 2 points 11 months ago

    Huh I just remembered the orders of arithmetic but parentheses trump all so do them first (I use them in even the calculator app). Mean I assume that's that that says but never learned that acronym is all. Now figuring out categories of words;really does my noodle in sometimes. Cause some words can be either depending on context. Math when it's written out has (mostly) the same answer. I say mostly because somewhere in the back of my brain there are some scenarios where something more complicated than straight arithmetic can come out oddly but written as such should come out the same.

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  • [–] 2 points 11 months ago (11 children)

    I mean, arithmetic order is just convention, not a mathematical truth. But that convention works in the way we know, yes, because that's what's.. well.. convention

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  • [–] -1 points 11 months ago (1 child)

    Social conventions are real, well defined things. Some mathematicians like to pretend they aren't, while using a truckload of them; that's a hypocritical opinion.

    That's not to say you can't change them. But all of basic arithmetic is a social convention, you can redefine the numbers and operations any time you want too.

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  • [–] -1 points 10 months ago

    Social conventions are real, well defined things

    So are the laws of nature, that Maths arises from

    Some mathematicians like to pretend they aren’t, while using a truckload of them; that’s a hypocritical opinion

    No, you making false accusations against Mathematicians is a strawman

    That’s not to say you can’t change them

    You can change the conventions, you cannot change the rules

    But all of basic arithmetic is a social convention

    Nope, law of nature. Even several animals know how to count.

    you can redefine the numbers and operations any time you want too

    And you end up back where you started, since you can't change the laws of nature

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  • [–] -1 points 10 months ago (8 children)

    I mean, arithmetic order is just convention

    Nope, rules arising from the definition of the operators in the first place.

    not a mathematical truth

    It most certainly is a mathematical truth!

    But that convention works in the way we know, yes, because that’s what’s… well… convention

    The mnemonics are conventions, the rules are rules

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  • [–] 0 points 10 months ago (7 children)

    The rules are socially agreed upon. They are not a mathematical truth. There is nothing about the order of multiple different operators in the definition of the operators themselves. An operator is simply just a function or mapping, and you can order those however you like. All that matters is just what calculation it is that you're after

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  • [–] 0 points 10 months ago (6 children)

    The rules are socially agreed upon

    Nope! Universal laws.

    They are not a mathematical truth.

    Yes they are! 😂

    There is nothing about the order of multiple different operators in the definition of the operators themselves

    That's exactly where it is. 2x3 is defined as 2+2+2, therefore if you don't do Multiplication before Addition you get wrong answers

    you can order those however you like.

    No you can't! 😂 2+3x4=5x4=20, Oops! WRONG ANSWER 😂

    All that matters is just what calculation it is that you’re after

    And if you want the right answer then you have to obey the order of operations rules

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  • [–] 1 point 10 months ago (5 children)

    That's a very simplistic view of maths. It's convention https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Order_of_operations

    Just because a definition of an operator contains another operator, does not require that operator to take precedence. As you pointed out, 2+3*4 could just as well be calculated to 5*4 and thus 20. There's no mathematical contradiction there. Nothing broke. You just get a different answer. This is all perfectly in line with how maths work.

    You can think of operators as functions, in that case, you could rewrite 2+3*4 as add(2, mult(3, 4)), for typical convention. But it could just as well be mult(add(2, 3), 4), where addition takes precedence. Or, similarly, for 2*3+4, as add(mult(2, 3), 4) for typical convention, or mult(2, add(3, 4)), where addition takes precedence. And I hope you see how, in here, everything seems to work just fine, it just depends on how you rearrange things. This sort of functional breakdown of operators is much closer to mathematical reality, and our operators is just convention, to make it easier to read.

    Something in between would be requiring parentheses around every operator, to enforce order. Such as (2+(3*4)) or ((2+3)*4)

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  • [–] -1 points 10 months ago (4 children)

    That’s a very simplistic view of maths

    The Distributive Law and Arithmetic is very simple.

    It’s convention

    Nope, a literal Law. See screenshot

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Order_of_operations

    Isn't a Maths textbook, and has many mistakes in it

    Just because a definition of an operator contains another operator, does not require that operator to take precedence

    Yes it does 😂

    2+3x4=2+3+3+3+3=14 by definition of Multiplication

    2+3x4=5x4=20 Oops! WRONG ANSWER 😂

    As you pointed out, 2+34 could just as well be calculated to 54 and thus 20

    No, I pointed out that it can't be calculated like that, you get a wrong answer, and you get a wrong answer because 3x4=3+3+3+3 by definition

    There’s no mathematical contradiction there

    Just a wrong answer and a right one. If I have 1 2 litre bottle of milk, and 4 3 litre bottles of milk, even young kids know how to count up how many litres I have. Go ahead and ask them what the correct answer is 🙄

    Nothing broke

    You got a wrong answer when you broke the rules of Maths. Spoiler alert: I don't have 20 litres of milk

    You just get a different answer

    A provably wrong answer 😂

    This is all perfectly in line with how maths work

    2+3x4=20 is not in line with how Maths works. 2+3+3+3+3 does not equal 20 😂

    add(2, mult(3, 4)), for typical

    rule

    But it could just as well be mult(add(2, 3), 4), where addition takes precedence

    And it gives you a wrong answer 🙄 I still don't have 20 litres of milk

    And I hope you see how, in here, everything seems to work just fine

    No, I see quite clearly that I have 14 litres of milk, not 20 litres of milk. Even a young kid can count up and tell you that

    it just depends on how you rearrange things

    Correctly or not

    our operators is just convention

    The notation is, the rules aren't

    Something in between would be requiring parentheses around every operator, to enforce order

    No it wouldn't. You know we've only been using brackets in Maths for 300 years, right? Order of operations is much older than that

    Such as (2+(3*4))

    Which is exactly how they did it before we started using Brackets in Maths 😂 2+3x4=2+3+3+3+3=14, not complicated.

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  • [–] 1 point 10 months ago (3 children)

    I mean, it is pretty clear here that you do not really understand the purpose of notation, nor what maths is. Notation is just a constructed language to convey a mathematical idea, it's malleable

    And yeah, it's easy to just say "this page is wrong!" without any further argument. Nothing you referenced proved the convention as law, and neither is there any mathematical basis for any proof, because it simply is nonsensical to "prove" a notation. Have another source for this being convention https://www.themathdoctors.org/order-of-operations-why/ or https://math.stackexchange.com/questions/884765/mathematical-proof-for-order-of-operations. If you want a book about this, then there's https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bronshtein_and_Semendyayev that is cited by wikipedia. I'm sure you could also find stuff about this in a set theory book. Though good luck understanding them without sufficient experience in high-level maths

    Really though, maths is so much more than "3+5=8 because that's the correct answer!" But why is it the correct answer? In what context? What is the definition of addition? How can you prove that 1+1=2 from fundamental axioms? This is harder to answer than you might think.

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  • [–] -2 points 10 months ago (2 children)

    I mean, it is pretty clear here that you do not really understand the purpose of notation,

    says person who doesn't understand that there is only one possible answer to 2+3x4. Even kids who are still counting up know what it is

    Notation is just a constructed language to convey a mathematical idea, it’s malleable

    Yep, and the rules aren't. 2+3x4 can only ever equal 14. In Germany it's written 2+3.4, and it's still equal to 14, because the rules are universal

    Nothing you referenced proved the convention as law

    says person ignoring the textbook screenshots explaining why it's a Law 🙄

    neither is there any mathematical basis for any proof

    Yes there is. See textbook screenshots 🙄

    it simply is nonsensical to “prove” a notation

    It proves the rules 🙄

    Have another source for this being convention https://www.themathdoctors.org/order-of-operations-why/

    Read the comments and you'll find multiple people telling him he is wrong, with references 😂 His usual comeback is "well, that doesn't prove that it's taught everywhere", yeah only that they ALL say the same thing! 😂 And he even admitted at one point he couldn't find his rule in any Maths textbooks. 😂 I even tried to tell him myself, and he deleted my comment because I proved he was wrong 😂

    or https://math.stackexchange.com/questions/884765/mathematical-proof-for-order-of-operations.

    Is well-known to be overridden with people who do not know how to do order of operations 😂 On Mastodon I've seen people asking where is a better place to take Maths problems

    If you want a book about this

    I have plenty of Maths textbooks, which for some reason you refuse to look in

    there’s https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bronshtein_and_Semendyayev that is cited by wikipedia.

    "comprehensive handbook" - so, yet again, not a Maths textbook 🙄

    "first published in 1945 in Russia" - the order of operations rules are older than 1945 😂

    "frequently used guide for scientists, engineers, and technical university students" - notably no mention of Mathematicians

    I’m sure you could also find stuff about this in a set theory book

    and you could find this in a high school Maths textbook

    Though good luck understanding them without sufficient experience in high-level maths

    You know teachers here are required to have a Masters in Maths right?? 😂

    But why is it the correct answer?

    Count up and find out, or use some Cuisenaire rods. This is how young kids learn to do it

    In what context?

    The context of Addition 🙄

    What is the definition of addition?

    1+1=2, then inductively proven for all subsequent numbers

    How can you prove that 1+1=2 from fundamental axioms?

    It's true by definition

    This is harder to answer than you might think

    Not hard at all. 1+1=2 by definition, then the rest of the numbers are proven inductively. You know there are several species of animals that also know how to count, right?

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  • [–] 1 point 10 months ago (1 child)

    Maths is so much more malleable and abstract than what you think it is. You really do not understand maths as well as you think you do, and I feel a bit sad for any student of yours that would wish to explore some deeper revelations of maths, just to be told "nope! That's just how it is!" with no further thinking at all.

    A lot of maths is chosen. Choices with good motivation, but choices nonetheless. So long as there not being contradictions or paradoxes, the formulation of a form of math is valid. Which is why you have different forms of maths with different rules.

    And you really could use some more humility, it's obnoxious when you act all so high and mighty and arrogant, with no interest in questioning your assumptions. Devolving into ridiculing the person you're discussing with and a general vibe of "omfg I'm right you fucking idiot because I'm right how dumb can you get??"

    Like, what is it that you want here, a book from the 700s of the one dude that invented arithmetics and told clearly "I chose this."? You are making your arguments effectively unfalsifiable by just going "Nuh uh" all the time.

    Get some humility and learn a bit about the foundations of maths. Like. Down to set theory. See for yourself what actually is the foundation. And, spoiler, it's not a high school textbook. Hopefully I do not need to tell you how concepts are simplified for younger students, instead of overwhelming them with the complete knowledge of a subject.

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  • [–] -1 points 10 months ago

    Maths is so much more malleable and abstract than what you think it is

    No it isn't, as per Maths textbooks

    You really do not understand maths as well as you think you do

    says someone who doesn't understand it at all

    just to be told “nope! That’s just how it is!” with no further thinking at all

    Just as well I'm their teacher then, hey? 😂 I showed you the textbooks, and you refused to look at them

    A lot of maths is chosen

    Nope! Only the notation.

    So long as there not being contradictions or paradoxes, the formulation of a form of math is valid

    You mean so long as it obeys the laws of nature

    Which is why you have different forms of maths with different rules

    But we don't have different rules, only different notations. The rules of Maths are universal

    And you really could use some more humility

    says person who refuses to look in Maths textbooks

    it’s obnoxious when you act all so high and mighty and arrogant,

    says person who refuses to look in Maths textbooks

    with no interest in questioning your assumptions

    there aren't any. All the rules of Maths are explicitly spelt out in Maths textbooks, not to mention several of which are easy to prove.

    Devolving into ridiculing the person you’re discussing with

    Like the person who refuses to look in Maths textbooks

    told clearly “I chose this.”?

    No-one chose it. There are even several species of animals that know how to count! 😂 It's a universal law

    You are making your arguments effectively unfalsifiable by just going “Nuh uh” all the time

    Just as well I also provide the proof in the form of Maths textbooks. Oh wait, you keep refusing to look at them! 😂

    Get some humility

    says person who refuses to look in Maths textbooks

    learn a bit about the foundations of maths.

    says person who knows nothing about it. Makes up fanciful stories like it was "chosen" when nature proves otherwise

    See for yourself what actually is the foundation

    It's Arithmetic. Even some animals know how to do Arithmetic, none of them know how to do set theory! 😂

    And, spoiler, it’s not a high school textbook.

    That's right, it's a Primary school textbook 😂

    Hopefully I do not need to tell you how concepts are simplified for younger students

    And yet you still manage to not understand them 🙄

    instead of overwhelming them with the complete knowledge of a subject

    Welcome to why Algebra isn't taught until Year 7 😂

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  • [–] 1 point 11 months ago (2 children)

    Well, this is just a writing standard that is globally agreed on,

    The writing rules are defined by humans not by natural force
    (That one thing and another thing are two things, is a rule from nature, as comparison)

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  • [–] 3 points 10 months ago

    Save yourself the trouble - Smartman Apps is a crank. They categorically will not comprehend the difference between the notation we made up and how numbers work. Dingus keeps saying 'animals can count' like that proves parentheses-first is completely different! from distribution.

    Why'd Russel and Whitehead bother with the Principia Mathematica when they could just point to Clever Hans?

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  • [–] -2 points 10 months ago

    this is just a writing standard that is globally agreed on

    No, it's a universal rule of Maths

    The writing rules are defined by humans not by natural force

    Maths is for describing natural forces, and is subject to those laws

    That one thing and another thing are two things, is a rule from nature

    Yep, there are even some animals who understand that, and all of Maths is based upon it.

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  • [–] -1 points 10 months ago

    Some people insist there’s no “correct” order for the basic arithmetic operations.

    And those people are wrong

    And worse, some people insist the correct order is parenthesis first, then left to right

    As per Maths textbooks

    Both of those sets of people are wrong

    All Maths textbooks are wrong?? 😂

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  • [–] 11 points 11 months ago (3 children)

    There is no answer. Because there is no question.

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  • [+] 9 points 11 months ago (58 children)
  • [–] 21 points 11 months ago (57 children)

    Yeah I know that. But I was feeling confused as to why it was here. That's why I was feeling trolled, because it made me doubt basic math for being posted in a memes community.

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  • [–] 6 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago) (52 children)

    They did the joke wrong. To do it right you need to use the ÷ symbol. Because people never use that after they learn fractions, people treat things like a + b ÷ c + d as

    a + b
    -----
    c + d
    

    Or (a + b) ÷ (c + d) when they should be treating it as a + (b ÷ c) + d.

    That's the most common one of these "troll math" tricks. Because notating as

    a + b + d
        -
        c
    

    Is much more common and useful. So people get used to grouping everything around the division operator as if they're in parentheses.

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  • [–] 4 points 11 months ago (30 children)

    Or
    12 / 2(6)
    And trying to argue this is 36.

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  • [–] 5 points 11 months ago

    Well, now you might be running into syntax issues instead of PEMDAS issues depending on what they're confused about. If it's 12 over 2*6, it's 1. If it's 12 ÷ 2 x 6, it's 36.

    A lot of people try a bunch of funky stuff to represent fractions in text form (like mixing spaces and no spaces) when they should just be treating it like a programmer has to, and use parenthesis if it's a complex fraction in basic text form.

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  • [–] 7 points 11 months ago (20 children)

    Now that's a good troll math thing because it gets really deep into the weeds of mathematical notation. There isn't one true order of operations that is objectively correct, and on top of that, that's hardly the way most people would write that. As in, if you wrote that by hand, you wouldn't use the / symbol. You'd either use ÷ or a proper fraction.

    It's a good candidate for nerd sniping.

    Personally, I'd call that 36 as written given the context you're saying it in, instead of calling it 1. But I'd say it's ambiguous and you should notate in a way to avoid ambiguities. Especially if you're in the camp of multiplication like a(b) being different from ab and/or a × b.

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  • [–] -4 points 10 months ago (19 children)

    There isn’t one true order of operations that is objectively correct

    Yes there is, as found in Maths textbooks the world over

    that’s hardly the way most people would write that

    Maths textbooks write it that way

    you wouldn’t use the / symbol

    Yes you would.

    You’d either use ÷

    Same same

    It’s a good candidate for nerd sniping.

    Here's one I prepared earlier to save you the trouble

    I’d call that 36

    And you'd be wrong

    as written given the context you’re saying it in

    The context is Maths, you have to obey the rules of Maths. a(b+c)=(ab+ac), 5(8-5)=(5x8-5x5).

    But I’d say it’s ambiguous

    And you'd be wrong about that too

    you should notate in a way to avoid ambiguities

    It already is notated in a way that avoids all ambiguities!

    Especially if you’re in the camp of multiplication like a(b)

    That's not Multiplication, it's Distribution, a(b+c)=(ab+ac), a(b)=(axb).

    being different from ab

    Nope, that's exactly the same, ab=(axb) by definition

    and/or a × b

    (axb) is most certainly different to axb. 1/ab=1/(axb), 1/axb=b/a

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  • [–] 4 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago) (18 children)

    Please read this section of Wikipedia which talks about these topics better than I could. It shows that there is ambiguity in the order of operations and that for especially niche cases there is not a universally accepted order of operations when dealing with mixed division and multiplication. It addresses everything you've mentioned.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Order_of_operations#Mixed_division_and_multiplication

    There is no universal convention for interpreting an expression containing both division denoted by '÷' and multiplication denoted by '×'. Proposed conventions include assigning the operations equal precedence and evaluating them from left to right, or equivalently treating division as multiplication by the reciprocal and then evaluating in any order;[10] evaluating all multiplications first followed by divisions from left to right; or eschewing such expressions and instead always disambiguating them by explicit parentheses.[11]

    Beyond primary education, the symbol '÷' for division is seldom used, but is replaced by the use of algebraic fractions,[12] typically written vertically with the numerator stacked above the denominator – which makes grouping explicit and unambiguous – but sometimes written inline using the slash or solidus symbol '/'.[13]

    Multiplication denoted by juxtaposition (also known as implied multiplication) creates a visual unit and is often given higher precedence than most other operations. In academic literature, when inline fractions are combined with implied multiplication without explicit parentheses, the multiplication is conventionally interpreted as having higher precedence than division, so that e.g. 1 / 2n is interpreted to mean 1 / (2 · n) rather than (1 / 2) · n.[2][10][14][15] For instance, the manuscript submission instructions for the Physical Review journals directly state that multiplication has precedence over division,[16] and this is also the convention observed in physics textbooks such as the Course of Theoretical Physics by Landau and Lifshitz[c] and mathematics textbooks such as Concrete Mathematics by Graham, Knuth, and Patashnik.[17] However, some authors recommend against expressions such as a / bc, preferring the explicit use of parenthesis a / (bc).[3]

    More complicated cases are more ambiguous. For instance, the notation 1 / 2π(a + b) could plausibly mean either 1 / [2π · (a + b)] or [1 / (2π)] · (a + b).[18] Sometimes interpretation depends on context. The Physical Review submission instructions recommend against expressions of the form a / b / c; more explicit expressions (a / b) / c or a / (b / c) are unambiguous.[16]

    Image of two calculators getting different answers 6÷2(1+2) is interpreted as 6÷(2×(1+2)) by a fx-82MS (upper), and (6÷2)×(1+2) by a TI-83 Plus calculator (lower), respectively.

    This ambiguity has been the subject of Internet memes such as "8 ÷ 2(2 + 2)", for which there are two conflicting interpretations: 8 ÷ [2 · (2 + 2)] = 1 and (8 ÷ 2) · (2 + 2) = 16.[15][19] Mathematics education researcher Hung-Hsi Wu points out that "one never gets a computation of this type in real life", and calls such contrived examples "a kind of Gotcha! parlor game designed to trap an unsuspecting person by phrasing it in terms of a set of unreasonably convoluted rules".[12]

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  • [–] -4 points 10 months ago (17 children)

    Please read this section of Wikipedia which talks about these topics better than I could

    Please read Maths textbooks which explain it better than Joe Blow Your next Door neighbour on Wikipedia. there's plenty in here

    It shows that there is ambiguity in the order of operations

    and is wrong about that, as proven by Maths textbooks

    especially niche cases there is not a universally accepted order of operations when dealing with mixed division and multiplication

    That's because Multiplication and Division can be done in any order

    It addresses everything you’ve mentioned

    wrongly, as per Maths textbooks

    Multiplication denoted by juxtaposition (also known as implied multiplication)

    Nope. Terms/Products is what they are called. "implied multiplication" is a "rule" made up by people who have forgotten the actual rules.

    s often given higher precedence than most other operations

    Always is, because brackets first. ab=(axb) by definition

    1 / 2n is interpreted to mean 1 / (2 · n)

    As per the definition that ab=(axb), 1/2n=1/(2xn).

    [2][10][14][15]

    Did you look at the references, and note that there are no Maths textbooks listed?

    the manuscript submission instructions for the Physical Review journals

    Which isn't a Maths textbook

    the convention observed in physics textbooks

    Also not Maths textbooks

    mathematics textbooks such as Concrete Mathematics by Graham, Knuth, and Patashnik

    Actually that is a Computer Science textbook, written for programmers. Knuth is a very famous programmer

    More complicated cases are more ambiguous

    None of them are ambiguous.

    the notation 1 / 2π(a + b) could plausibly mean either 1 / [2π · (a + b)]

    It does as per the rules of Maths, but more precisely it actually means 1 / (2πa + 2πb)

    or [1 / (2π)] · (a + b).[18]

    No, it can't mean that unless it was written (1 / 2π)(a + b), which it wasn't

    Sometimes interpretation depends on context

    Nope, never

    more explicit expressions (a / b) / c or a / (b / c) are unambiguous

    a/b/c is already unambiguous - left to right. 🙄

    Image of two calculators getting different answers

    With the exception of Texas Instruments, all the other calculator manufacturers have gone back to doing it correctly, and Sharp have always done it correctly.

    6÷2(1+2) is interpreted as 6÷(2×(1+2))

    6÷(2x1+2x2) actually, as per The Distributive Law, a(b+c)=(ab+ac)

    (6÷2)×(1+2) by a TI-83 Plus calculator (lower)

    Yep, Texas Instruments is the only one still doing it wrong

    This ambiguity

    doesn't exist, as per Maths textbooks

    “8 ÷ 2(2 + 2)”, for which there are two conflicting interpretations:

    No there isn't - you MUST obey The Distributive Law, a(b+c)=(ab+ac)

    Mathematics education researcher Hung-Hsi Wu points out that “one never gets a computation of this type in real life”

    And he was wrong about that. 🙄

    calls such contrived examples

    Which notably can be found in Maths textbooks

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  • [–] 4 points 10 months ago (16 children)

    If you believe the article is incorrect, submit your corrections to Wikipedia instead of telling me.

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  • [–] -1 points 10 months ago (15 children)

    If you believe the article is incorrect, submit your corrections to Wikipedia

    You know they've rejected corrections by actual Maths Professors right? Just look for Rick Norwood in the talk section. Everyone who knows Maths knows Wikipedia is wrong, and looks in the right place to begin with - Maths textbooks

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  • [–] 2 points 10 months ago (14 children)

    Again, if you have a problem with Wikipedia, take it up with Wikipedia.

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  • [–] -2 points 10 months ago (13 children)

    Again, if you have a problem with Wikipedia, take it up with Wikipedia

    You've made the mistake of thinking they care. Again, look for Rick Norwood in the Talk sections, an actual Maths professor (bless him for continually trying to get them to correct the mistakes though)

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  • [–] 2 points 10 months ago (12 children)

    Take it up with them if you have a problem with them.

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  • [–] -1 points 10 months ago (11 children)

    Take it up with them if you have a problem with them

    I see you're not even reading what I said. No wonder you don't know how to do Maths...

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  • [–] 1 point 10 months ago (10 children)

    I did read everything you said and I do know how to do math. I hope you are able to enact the change you want to see in Wikipedia and the article. Good luck.

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  • [–] -3 points 10 months ago (9 children)

    I did read everything you said

    Clearly you didn't, given you keep telling me to take it up with Harvard/Wiki

    enact the change you want to see in Wikipedia

    See?? There you go again ignoring what I told you about Wikipedia 🙄

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  • [–] 2 points 10 months ago (8 children)

    I haven't ignored anything you said. I'm telling you that if you have a problem with those that you should contact them to fix them.

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  • [–] -3 points 10 months ago (7 children)

    I haven’t ignored anything you said.

    You've ignored everything I've said about Wikipedia.

    I’m telling you that if you have a problem with those that you should contact them to fix them

    and you have again ignored what I told you about them 🙄

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  • [–] 2 points 10 months ago (6 children)

    It's funny that you define "ignore" as "not doing what you tell someone to" because by that definition you've been ignoring me too. Go edit the article if you feel this strongly.

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  • [–] -1 points 10 months ago (5 children)

    It’s funny that you define “ignore” as “not doing what you tell someone to”

    Nope, I didn't.

    because by that definition you’ve been ignoring me too

    I'm ignoring the person failing to cite Maths textbooks, yes, that's correct.

    Go edit the article if you feel this strongly

    Go read what I said about what happens when ACTUAL MATHS PROFESSORS have tried to do EXACTLY THAT 🙄

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  • [–] 2 points 10 months ago (4 children)

    Go tell Wikipedia about that, not me. It's a community you can join. You very clearly feel very strongly about it. Talking to me about it isn't going to change anything.

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  • [–] -1 points 10 months ago* (3 children)

    Go tell Wikipedia about that, not me

    I'm telling you, the person pretending that it's mathematically valid information

    It’s a community you can join

    Yep, and be defeated, just like the Maths Professor Rick Norwood was, repeatedly.

    You very clearly feel very strongly about it.

    Maths textbooks, yes, which you keep ignoring

    Talking to me about it isn’t going to change anything

    And you talking about it isn't going to change that you are wrong

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  • [–] 1 point 10 months ago (2 children)
  • [–] 3 points 11 months ago (7 children)

    The P in PEMDAS means to solve everything within parentheses first; there is no "distribution" step or rule that says multiplying without a visible operator other than parentheses comes first. So yes, 36 is valid here. It's mostly because PEMDAS never shows up in the same context as this sort of multiplication or large fractions

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  • [–] -3 points 10 months ago (6 children)

    The P in PEMDAS means to solve everything within parentheses first

    and without a(b+c)=(ab+ac), now solve (ab+ac)

    there is no “distribution” step or rule

    It's a LAW of Maths actually, The Distributive Law.

    that says multiplying without a visible operator

    It's not "Multiplying", it's Distributing, a(b+c)=(ab+ac)

    So yes, 36 is valid here

    No it isn't. To get 36 you have disobeyed The Distributive Law, thus it is a wrong answer

    It’s mostly because

    people like you try to gaslight others that there's no such thing as The Distributive Law

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  • [–] 2 points 10 months ago* (5 children)

    Are you under the impression that atomizing your opponents statements and making a comment about each part individually without addressing the actual point (how those facts fit together) is a good debate tactic? Because it seems like all you've done is confuse yourself about what I was saying and make arguments that don't address it. Never mind that some of those micro-rebuttals aren't even correct.

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  • [–] -2 points 10 months ago (4 children)

    addressing the actual point (how those facts fit together)

    I did address the actual point - see Maths textbooks

    all you’ve done is confuse yourself

    I'm not confused at all. I'm the one who knows the difference between Distribution and Multiplication.

    what I was saying

    You lied about there being no such thing as "the Distribution step" (Brackets), proven wrong by the textbooks

    make arguments that don’t address it.

    Textbooks talking about The Distributive Law totally addresses your lie that no such step exists.

    Never mind that some of those micro-rebuttals aren’t even correct

    You think Maths textbooks aren't correct?? 😂

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  • [–] 0 points 10 months ago (3 children)

    I have said why this style of debate is bad in greater detail here: https://lemmy.world/post/39377635/21030374

    But to make a pointless effort to address your actual point, yes distribution exists, no it is not a step in PE(MD)(AS). Again, you have not understood my point because you categorically fail to engage with any argument. I don't think you even understand what it means to do so. I will not respond further to either thread.

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  • [–] -1 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago) (2 children)

    I have said why this style of debate is bad in greater detail here: https://lemmy.world/post/39377635/21030374

    Which I debunked here

    no it is not a step in PE(MD)(AS)

    So... you're saying the "P" step in PEMDAS isn't a step in PEMDAS?? This is hilarious given you were just talking about contradictions 😂

    Again, you have not understood my point

    Maybe because saying the "P" step in PEMDAS isn't a step in PEMDAS makes no sense at all 😂

    you categorically fail to engage with any argument.

    No, I comprehensively debunked all of your points and deflections. 😂

    I don’t think you even understand what it means to do so

    says person who keeps avoiding the textbook screenshots and worked examples proving them wrong

    I will not respond further to either thread

    Yay! Don't let the door hit you on the way out 😂

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  • [–] 1 point 10 months ago (1 child)

    Parentheses means evaluating the things inside the parentheses you nimrod

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  • [–] 0 points 10 months ago

    Parentheses means evaluating the things inside the parentheses you nimrod

    Only if you're still in Elementary school. How old are you anyway? Here's a high school Algebra book, you know, after students have been taught The Distributive Law...

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  • [–] 1 point 11 months ago (2 children)

    Treat a + b/c + d as a + b/(c + d) I can almost understand, I was guilty of doing that in school with multiplication, but auto-parenthesising the first part is really crazy take, imo

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  • [–] 0 points 10 months ago (17 children)

    Because people never use that after they learn fractions,

    Yes they do, because not every division is a fraction

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  • [–] 1 point 10 months ago (16 children)
  • [–] -2 points 10 months ago (15 children)

    https://math.berkeley.edu/~wu/order5.pdf

    I already said he was wrong about that. Quoting him saying it doesn't change that he's wrong about it

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  • [–] 2 points 10 months ago (14 children)

    Take it up with Berkeley then.

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  • [–] -2 points 10 months ago (13 children)

    Take it up with Berkeley then

    What for? You're only the second person ever to have quoted him. You're not the first person to refuse to look in Maths textbooks though 🙄

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  • [–] 1 point 10 months ago (12 children)
  • [–] -2 points 10 months ago (11 children)

    Take it up with Berkeley

    Says person refusing to look in Maths textbooks 😂

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  • [–] 2 points 10 months ago (10 children)

    I cannot stress this enough. If you have a problem with that, contact the author or Berkeley, not me.

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  • [–] -2 points 10 months ago (9 children)

    I cannot stress this enough. If you have a problem with that, contact the author or Berkeley, not me

    I cannot stress this enough - look in Maths textbooks, not random University blogs 😂

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  • [–] 1 point 10 months ago (8 children)
  • [–] -2 points 10 months ago (7 children)

    Tell them, not me

    You're the one commenting without reading Maths textbooks

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  • [–] 2 points 10 months ago (6 children)
  • [–] 2 points 10 months ago (4 children)

    You can stop humoring this broken robot. Especially when the context is 'yeah I already said this textbook is wrong, but I am better than you because you need to read this textbook.'

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  • [–] 2 points 10 months ago (3 children)

    They seem to believe that and on the 8th day God made the one true objective order of operations that all humans use and agree on.

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  • [–] 2 points 10 months ago* (2 children)

    Except for that time the definition of division changed 130 years ago. Which is not a rule! It's notation, or syntax, or possibly sometimes a rule. Whichever one lets them sneer hardest.

    I tried explaining RPN to them a year ago. They still insist there's parentheses in it. Today they called it an "app."

    Dogmatic patience vampire is still trying to bait me into further wasted effort.

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  • [–] 2 points 10 months ago (1 child)

    Wowww. Insisting that they're good at math. I distinctly remember learning that RPN doesn't need parentheses in college.

    reverse Polish calculators do not need expressions to be parenthesized

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reverse_Polish_notation

    But, you know, anyone can edit Wikipedia. Someone probably put that there who hasn't opened a math textbook.

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  • [–] 2 points 10 months ago

    Oh of course. The sky isn't blue unless that's written in a maths textbook.

    And if you look up and see stars, it's still blue, because it's written in a maths textbook! Are you saying a teacher could be wrong?!, smug emoji, crying emoji, roll-eyes emoji?

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