Canada

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[–] justOnePersistentKbinPlease@fedia.io 3 points 11 months ago (2 children)

By far right you also mean the muslims who pretended a protest was just a public prayer event in the middle of the street and arguably caused this law to be a thing.

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[–] theacharnian@lemmy.ca 4 points 11 months ago

Blocking traffic is an offense of its own. We don't need this law.

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[–] TribblesBestFriend@startrek.website 2 points 11 months ago*

By far right I mean actual asshole that stab people and not a protest made against a law

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[–] velindora@lemmy.cafe -2 points 11 months ago (39 children)

I love it. Public prayer shouldn’t happen at all.

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[–] TribblesBestFriend@startrek.website 14 points 11 months ago (26 children)

The problem is not if it should or shouldn’t happen

The problem is that it will not be enforced equally between religious communities and Christian poser asshole

It’s racism with more steps

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[–] jaselle@lemmy.ca 3 points 11 months ago (11 children)

What bothers me about this perspective is the implicit assumption that everyone who thinks that public displays of religion should be banned is actually motivated by racism, rather than recognising that somebody can be against this for non-racist reasons.

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[–] theacharnian@lemmy.ca 4 points 11 months ago (3 children)

It just so happens that it always boils down to policing what Muslims do. Just one big coincidence.

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[–] theacharnian@lemmy.ca 3 points 11 months ago* (1 child)

There are two hazards in our discussion:

someone being called racist
someone suffering from systemic racism

I prioritize hazard 1 as having a lower consequence than hazard 2.

In other words, I care much more about eradicating systemic racism than the hurt feelings of someone whose motives are misunderstood.

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[–] jaselle@lemmy.ca 1 point 11 months ago

OK that's a good argument. It's perhaps a flaw of the word "racist" that it can include systemic racism, when it connotes individual racism.

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[–] Croquette@sh.itjust.works 2 points 11 months ago

The context made it so that people conflates the two.

Medias and public debates pretty much always framed the issue of religion in public as a racist thing (in order to get more views) instead of only talking how the CAQ government targetted non-christian religions with their bill.

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[–] TribblesBestFriend@startrek.website 3 points 11 months ago (1 child)

That is not push on a non-racism way in Quebec. Like I said they don’t want to use the law equally, they want to use it specifically against Muslim.

And so far, from my perspective (that is a confirmation biais), no one debate the idea without a racist undertone

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[–] Croquette@sh.itjust.works 6 points 11 months ago

That's my issue as well with the bill. Just look at the crucifix at the Assembly. They didn't remove it, they just moved it outside the room. If the intent of the law was really to remove religion from the public space, it wouldn't have been a debate about keeping the crucifix in the Assembly.

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[–] yes_this_time@lemmy.world 3 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago) (3 children)

Sure, you can be against it for authoritarian reasons as well. Disturbing.

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[–] jaselle@lemmy.ca 1 point 11 months ago (1 child)

I don't really see how that's related. Even if it were motivated by racism, that'd be equally authoritarian to any other motive, since authoritarianism is about ceding rights from individuals to the government and it doesn't matter what the motivation for that is.

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[–] yes_this_time@lemmy.world 5 points 11 months ago

Fair enough: regardless of whether racism is involved or not, there is an authoritarian bent to this law. In my opinion.

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[–] Croquette@sh.itjust.works 0 points 11 months ago

Religion has been used time and time again to justify committing atrocities and still used as such today.

There is a legitimate debate to be had about the religion's place in a society.

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[–] velindora@lemmy.cafe -4 points 11 months ago (13 children)

It’s not racism with more steps. You don’t even know it has not been enforced improperly. It’s a lot easier to enforce enforcement than it is to stop people ruining the world

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[–] theacharnian@lemmy.ca 3 points 11 months ago*

Only we do know exactly the results of the CAQ's "laïcité" laws:

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/bill-21-impact-religious-minorities-survey-1.6541241

Bury your head in the sand all you like but the systemic racism that is embedded in the social outcomes of these laws is undeniable and palpable.

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[–] PunnyName@lemmy.world 2 points 11 months ago (11 children)

Praying doesn't ruin the world. Just like having a party, or a poetry slam, or Shakespeare in the park.

It's behaviors that cause health or safety issues that are the problem.

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[–] velindora@lemmy.cafe -2 points 11 months ago (10 children)

Praying in PUBLIC is like having sex in public. Don’t.

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[–] PunnyName@lemmy.world 4 points 11 months ago (2 children)

So someone praying before a meal is an equivalent obscenity?

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[–] PunnyName@lemmy.world 1 point 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago)

Then that's not prayer, it's being a public nuisance, a disturber of the peace. That's a different crime / tort that I'm sure is already on the books.

The prayer part is irrelevant.

There's a precedent like this in the US: enhancement laws

They ruin lives, and don't stop crime.

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[–] grte@lemmy.ca 5 points 11 months ago (5 children)

Sorry, can you expand on the ways prayer is like sex? Are people praying with their dicks out in your vicinity?

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[–] BillyTheKid2@lemmy.ca 3 points 11 months ago (1 child)

It's personal and private and children shouldn't be exposed to it. It's not wrong, and you can do it, but keep it away from me and mine.

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[–] grte@lemmy.ca 2 points 11 months ago

Have you considered being less nosy? Minding your business?

I'm no lover of religion but I love this culture policing even less.

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[–] grte@lemmy.ca 1 point 11 months ago (1 child)

*manner

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[–] velindora@lemmy.cafe 1 point 11 months ago

STT

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[–] theacharnian@lemmy.ca 2 points 11 months ago

What a weirdo comparison to make.

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[+] NoneOfUrBusiness@fedia.io 7 points 11 months ago* (12 children)

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[–] velindora@lemmy.cafe -3 points 11 months ago (11 children)

Religion is like sex. You can do it in your home and maybe even designated enclosed places in groups, but you should never do it out in public—and under no circumstances should you ever involve children.

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[+] NoneOfUrBusiness@fedia.io 14 points 11 months ago (11 children)

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[–] velindora@lemmy.cafe -5 points 11 months ago (10 children)

Do you believe that people should be able to have sex out in public for everyone to see? And, why Do you feel the way you do?

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[+] NoneOfUrBusiness@fedia.io 3 points 11 months ago* (10 children)

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[–] GreyEyedGhost@lemmy.ca 4 points 11 months ago

I would say about the same number of people are offended by profanity in public as they are religious acts in public. Moreover, I would estimate the number who are offended by sex acts in public is much higher than either of these. So, for the sake of other people's sensibilities, shall we ban public profanity?

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[–] velindora@lemmy.cafe -1 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago) (7 children)

I believe that public display of religion makes enough people feel uncomfortable that it was banned in Quebec.

Let me ask you this, why do you feel that you should be able to practice your religion in plain view of everyone else when you make them uncomfortable? And a follow up question, don’t you think that you should be going to the designated spot for this?

I certainly don’t think we should ban religion in general. That’s crazy talk. I just don’t think we should be forcing things onto other people. Do you?

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[–] svcg@lemmy.blahaj.zone 6 points 11 months ago (1 child)

Do you feel that you should be able to hold hands with a same sex partner in plain view of everyone else when you make them uncomfortable?

Do you feel that you should be able to be trans in plain view of everyone else when you make them uncomfortable?

Maybe people being uncomfortable is not a good yardstick for determining what people can do in public.

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[–] Anarki_@lemmy.blahaj.zone 3 points 11 months ago (4 children)

Your opinion makes me uncomfortable and I think we should ban expressing things like this in public :(

/end sarcasm

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[–] Anarki_@lemmy.blahaj.zone 8 points 11 months ago (2 children)

You have fundamentally misunderstood the internet if you do not think this is public.

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[–] khar21@lemmy.ca 3 points 11 months ago

Porn is on the internet, does that mean people should start fucking in public?

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[–] velindora@lemmy.cafe 3 points 11 months ago

There’s a real difference between doing something on an open internet forum and doing it out in public, physically. Online, people have to choose to click on something, follow a link, or open a post. If they don’t want to see it, they can just scroll past or block it. In the real world, you can’t avoid someone the same way—you can’t block a person walking toward you on the sidewalk, and you can’t just scroll away from something happening right in front of you.

Plus, online spaces usually come with filters, warnings, and moderation tools that don’t exist in physical public spaces. Everything online is also separated by screens and distance, so the impact isn’t the same as doing something right in front of people who have no way to opt out.

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[–] khar21@lemmy.ca -3 points 11 months ago (10 children)

Here in Coquitlam, our parks get flooded with public prayers at noon. It makes me uncomfortable as someone who moved out of sharia law country.

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[–] adespoton@lemmy.ca 9 points 11 months ago (2 children)

Which parks exactly are being flooded with people on prayer mats?

If you tried that in Mundy, you’d likely get hit in the head with a frisbee.

Most of the other parks I know of in Coquitlam don’t have enough flat space to do such a thing, being filled as they are with trees and trails.

Tri Cities? Sure… there are also people doing yoga, going for prayer walks, sword dancing, and many other things from many cultures. But none are really flooding anywhere.

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[–] jaselle@lemmy.ca 8 points 11 months ago

So this is something that you saw once or twice ever?

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[–] Sturgist@lemmy.ca 7 points 11 months ago (1 child)

Lived in Coquitlam for years and I have no idea what you're talking about.

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[–] PunnyName@lemmy.world 5 points 11 months ago (3 children)

Nothing wrong with public prayer, even a large gathering. I'm an atheist, and as long as no one is causing a health or safety issue, fuck it.

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[–] khar21@lemmy.ca -3 points 11 months ago (2 children)

Well I don't feel very comfortable in a space like that personally.

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[–] PunnyName@lemmy.world 8 points 11 months ago (1 child)

Then don't be in that space?

So you feel the same when a bunch of people are meditating? Same action, really.

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[–] khar21@lemmy.ca 1 point 11 months ago*

It's a public park, and I'm not gonna advocate for banning it, but it does make me uncomfortable and if they eventually start blasting the quran in public (like the government does in Iran) I will support banning it.

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[–] i_stole_ur_taco@lemmy.ca 5 points 11 months ago

Coquitlam, British Columbia? No they don’t. That has literally never happened. Not even once.