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[–] 126 points 4 months ago (12 children)

TL:DR: Poor scale and awareness due to being a niche brand, overly large aluminum body panels requiring either massive replacements or complicated welding, small shops guessing that it must be even more exotic and expensive than the CEO claims, and insurers shrugging and moving on because the volumes aren't hitting their financials hard enough for them to care.

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  • [–] 43 points 4 months ago (9 children)

    welding aluminum requires TIG. It's harder and more specialized.

    welding mild steel body panels are simple with equipment any body shop will have.

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  • [–] 9 points 4 months ago (4 children)

    Hell any home 120v wire welder can do mild steel. It is the cutting and shaping part that is hard.

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  • [–] 7 points 4 months ago (3 children)

    No, that's easy as well. It's the not breaking to pieces and looking like shit part that is hard.

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  • [–] 7 points 4 months ago (2 children)

    Well hell, I've never welded anything and I struggle with those things in my daily life anyway.

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  • [–] 4 points 4 months ago (2 children)

    welding aluminum requires TIG. It’s harder and more specialized.

    You can weld aluminium with MIG just fine. It is indeed way more difficult than normal steel and not every car shop has skills nor equipment for it.

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  • [–] 4 points 4 months ago (1 child)

    'can,' maybe, huge pain in the ass more likely. I'm far from an expert, but I've had much more success with AC. That oxide layer rebuilds itself pretty quick...

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  • [–] 3 points 4 months ago

    You need a suitable welder for that with pulse feed so that it kinda-sorta acts like square wave AC. With your average hobbyist garage welder it's going to be a real pain in the ass.

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  • [–] 1 point 4 months ago (1 child)

    insurers shrugging and moving on because the volumes aren’t hitting their financials hard enough for them to care.

    No insurance company works like that.

    The cost to insurance comes out of premiums. Rivians and Teslas cost a fortune to insure.

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  • [–] 1 point 4 months ago

    Fair enough, I may have inferred a bit too much, so here is what the CEO said:

    And so third parties, the reason you saw some of these really high numbers, is we’re like, ‘A Rivian? And what’s a Rivian?’ So they they don’t know the car, and they quote an enormously high number, the insurance company agrees to it, and then that happens.”

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  • [–] 89 points 4 months ago (23 children)

    I got into a fender bender with my Buick and they totalled it because the fender was worth half as much as the car. They're doing something very wrong in car design.

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  • [–] 11 points 4 months ago (15 children)

    Slate' service partner blurb at least has some sound bites related to ease of repair. But aren't they also a 'our car only has 3 parts' company?

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  • [–] 10 points 4 months ago (13 children)

    Slate is the car for me.

    No radio. No screens. A gas pedal, brakes, steering wheel, and manual windows.

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  • [–] 13 points 4 months ago (8 children)

    Is it still a gas pedal when the truck is electric :P

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  • [–] 16 points 4 months ago (5 children)

    technically, it's an accelerator, but I've taken to calling it the "go pedal"

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  • [–] 4 points 4 months ago (3 children)

    "Go pedal" was Tesla's thing, it was part of their branding.

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  • [–] 5 points 4 months ago (3 children)

    I want to be hype for it so bad, but I can't get behind buying a Bezosmobile. I really wish somebody else was behind it.

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  • [–] 4 points 4 months ago (2 children)

    He was an early investor, it is not his idea. He is not the majority owner.

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  • [–] 1 point 4 months ago

    The plastic body panels on a Slate are easily replaced by owners.

    But until Slate actually builds and sells vehicles, they are in the same vaporware pile as all the other promising EV companies that went broke or never deliver [cough] Aptera [cough].

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  • [–] 10 points 4 months ago (3 children)

    I used to drive an Isuzu Trooper. I got rear-ended which totaled my car. Theoretically it was repairable, but when your car is old enough to vote it doesn't take much damage for it to get totaled.

    There was other damage, but one thing that still pisses me off is that a few hundred bucks of that calculation was my spare tire cover, which had some cracks after the accident, and the insurance company would not let that drop.

    It was a plastic shell that is mostly just decorative that covered the spare bolted to the back of my vehicle. I didn't care that it was cracked, it in no way affected the safety of my vehicle, I would have happily driven that car for another decade with it being cracked, if they slapped 5¢ worth of epoxy on it I would have been more than satisfied, or hurry they could have just thrown the damn thing away and I guess my spare would get a little dirtier that it would if it was covered.

    But they had to include that in the repair cost estimate, and since it was kind of an uncommon older car, replacement spare tire covers were scarce and pricey and added a few hundred bucks onto the estimate.

    I don't know if that was the thing that pushed me over the edge to a total loss but it certainly didn't help

    I had a perfectly mechanically sound vehicle that was paid off, and could possibly still be on the road today, and instead I got stuck with a couple years of car payments on a car I liked less than that one.

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  • [–] 6 points 4 months ago (2 children)

    Isuzu Trooper mentioned! Consumer Reports did them dirty with the rollover test rigging. Really hurt the sales. Glad to see them on the decline as a reputable information source.

    Yeah the spare parts are an issue for less common vehicles. I was getting some Trooper parts from Australia before the tariffs messed that up for awhile. Really a shame how many cars are scrapped by insurance. Cash for clunkers not allowing parts to be sold also didn't help much.

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  • [–] 1 point 4 months ago (1 child)

    The rollover test was not "rigged". Troopers had a stupid high center of gravity and could flip from a simple avoidance. Jeep had the same problem.

    CR changed how fake off road vehicles were made, you're welcome.

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  • [–] 1 point 4 months ago

    It was absolutely rigged. You could pass or fail it depending on how you drove. I agree they were high center of gravity and didn't handle well. So were many other vehicles they passed.

    I don't agree with a test that is dependent on the driver. They could have easily failed the Ford Explorer if they had driven it like the Trooper.

    It's a shady organization.

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  • [–] 7 points 4 months ago (1 child)

    That's a Buick thing. Was it a CTS? I've seen two year old CTS total from small accidents because there were no parts available for it.

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  • [–] 9 points 4 months ago

    Envision. The car was worth like $18k but with labor the fender was about $7.5k and since that's over 40% of the value, it automatically totaled. I argued to no avail and almost kept it but the damage title wasn't worth it.

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  • [–] 72 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago) (42 children)

    The market is ripe for the equivalent of a wileys jeep ev. Cheap to buy, repair and capable with no frills.

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  • [–] 21 points 4 months ago (16 children)

    Slate.. though who knows if it will ever materialize in the real world.

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  • [–] 9 points 4 months ago (11 children)
  • [–] 1 point 4 months ago (10 children)
  • [–] 17 points 4 months ago (9 children)

    Yes, because unibody designs will all have this problem, where it's extremely expensive to repair damage to the frame.

    Body-on-frame is generally better for repairability because you don't have this problem - you can just remove the damaged panel and replace it.

    In both slate and rivian's case (I think), they seem to use a hybrid of both. So, it's probably around the same expense as repairing a Rivian in regard to labor (and possibly materials).

    The point is that Slate might not resolve this problem either.

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  • [–] 1 point 4 months ago (7 children)

    My understanding is the Slate is kind of body-around-frame.

    Not exactly a ladder chassis but I don't know if you can call it a unibody.

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  • [–] 2 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago) (5 children)

    I corrected my first comment in the comment you just replied to:

    In both slate and rivian's case (I think), they seem to use a hybrid of both

    Everywhere I've found calls it a hybrid or mix of both options. This is how Rivian does their bodies as well, which means Slate may not fully fix this "more expensive to repair than standard body-on-frame" problem. At least, Rivian calls it a "unique" body on frame.

    Here's an R1T, for example and to compare:

    I do see that the Slate's bed body is less of a unibody compared to the R1T, however it otherwise is very similar. I'm betting that the Slate will be cheaper to repair in the rear, from a labor and material sense, however I think it will suffer from similar problems elsewhere.

    Don't get me wrong, I'd love to have a Slate regardless. R2 is a full unibody, which will almost definitely make repairs more costly, as well.

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  • [–] 2 points 4 months ago* (4 children)

    Frame on rails doesnt save you any money in repairs if the frame is damaged. The real key is to hace rapairability as part of the design. The problem with the rivian isnt that its unibody, its that the exterior pannels are part of the unibody, so a small exterior dent is essentialy frame damage. That being siad, its likley cosmetic damage.

    EVs will never be frame on rails due to battery packaging. The most likley similar design would be body on "skateboard" as they call it. But the hybrid approach does make better cars. Frame on rails has issues with twisting and flex that unibody solves. This makes the cars drive softer and handle better.

    But either way, any design could have easy replacable exterior panels. Most unibody designs still have replacable bumpers, front quarter panels, mirrors, doors, trunks, etc. For some reason though they dont do usually do it on rear quarter panels, which is where the costs skyrocket. Just like in that r1t picturee above. The rear quarter panel could have been a replacable part. There may be a good reason for this, but i suspect its mostly production cost savings, with maybe a bit of weight savings.

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  • [–] 1 point 4 months ago (2 children)

    I think on the Slate, the only part of the frame that is exposed as outer body are the A pillars. Everything else is a panel that bolts on.

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  • [–] 2 points 4 months ago (2 children)
  • [+] 34 points 4 months ago (13 children)
  • [–] 8 points 4 months ago (12 children)

    I would die for a FOSS car. The main barrier for that is airbags, people could just disable them, which wouldn't be good or fair to their passengers or future owners. I also worry about other dumb stuff people would do with a foss car. Of course, I still want one.

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  • [–] 17 points 4 months ago (4 children)

    You can already do that though. Basically any truck just has a control on the dash to disable the passenger side airbag in case you neet to put a car seat there. You can also just remove the airbags in any existing vehicle as is. It really isn't hard to do. People are just hesitant to do so because if you screw up then you can set the airbag off.

    More importantly though why would the software being foss effect the airbags? The airbags shouldn't be interacting with the vehicle software at all.

    People have been doing dumb things with their cars since the invention of cars. Making them harder to repair via locked down software isn't the fix for that.

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  • [–] 4 points 4 months ago (2 children)

    Airbags are definitely a part of the can bus these days, they trigger based off of a number of inputs like the gyro, speed, acceleration, etc. I suppose they could just put in a seperate, secure system for the airbags that cannot be tampered with.

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  • [–] 3 points 4 months ago (1 child)

    If those sensors give the values thru a server port and the airbag reads them as a client there is no need for more interaction than what the 90s browsers had with the web servers.

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  • [–] 1 point 4 months ago

    Thankfully cars use more reliable things than http.

    But the point is that security related messages should be sent through another can bus, which is actually already the case. Except for earlier Tesla's, because of course their idiotic CEO thought he knew better than every single other car manufacturer in the past half century

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  • [–] 4 points 4 months ago (6 children)

    Not gonna happen for multiple obvious reasons, but here's one that would make you not want to buy one - it'd be a budget car for a price of a BMW.

    And you're not gonna want to buy it second-hand, because of the risk of unimaginable extent of software garbage the previous owners would leave you with.

    Tinker cars are for tinkering, good luck untinkering it.

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  • [–] 7 points 4 months ago (4 children)

    If it’s software, you could just reinstall it.

    Hardware would be a different story. But I’m not sure how that’s different than today. My friend has a RAV4 that he’s added several hardware hacks to. For example, there is a module you can add that will give you actual numbers for each tire’s pressure instead of the usual warning light that a tire is low with no indication of which one. It even shows up as an extra screen on the normal interface between the gauges.

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  • [–] 4 points 4 months ago* (2 children)

    If it’s software, you could just reinstall it.

    Exactly, right!

    As a FOSS person you don't buy a used PC from someone, find it still has an OS installed and just start using it.

    No, you wipe that sucker clean and install your OS fresh.

    An open-source car would be exactly the same.

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  • [–] 2 points 4 months ago

    Absolutely correct, however the thing about cars and electronics in general is that if you tinker too much, your software issues may become hardware issues - and usually much sooner than you may have anticipated.

    It's not fun when you burn your GPU, it's super not when you brick your car's AC and have to disassemble your entire dashboard

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  • [–] 7 points 4 months ago (3 children)

    You are close to describing the Slate truck

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  • [–] 9 points 4 months ago (2 children)

    Dacia Spring (but that's probably not exported to the US which I guess you're from)

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  • [–] 4 points 4 months ago (1 child)

    Closest to that is a base trim Bolt. Considering inflation since COVID, 29k is pretty decent for the US market.

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  • [–] 1 point 4 months ago

    Lemmy wants a new EV for $6500 to park in the garage of their $125,000 house.

    The fact that Bolt is not sold out indicates all these internet comments of "we just want an affordable EV" are bullshit.

    What people say in forums and what they actually buy are very different. Ford sells almost a million F150s every single year.

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    [–] 70 points 4 months ago (11 children)

    We used a one-piece body side, and so that means if you damage like the rear fender, the repair operation, depending on the level of the damage, you can either do body work or you have to cut out a portion of the panel, re-weld the new panel on,

    So, a problem of design that didn't really think about repairability

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  • [–] 21 points 4 months ago (10 children)

    I'm not even a mechanic and I can tell you that no car company thinks about repairability.

    Hell, just replacing a consumable like the battery can be a major chore that requires far more disassembly than anyone with a functional braincell would consider appropriate on some cars.

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  • [–] 8 points 4 months ago (9 children)

    You'd think cars, at least, will be built under the assumption they'll typically have to be repaired rather than replaced.

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  • [–] 6 points 4 months ago (8 children)

    They used to be. Go back far enough in time and you could climb up under the hood into the engine bay to work on it. All that went by the wayside to get smaller packaging, lighter weight, and better fuel efficiency.

    Now you need special tools or special code readers to solve/diagnose all vehicle problems. The large scale farmers are dealing with this now with the large combines and harvesters needing a tech with special equipment to read all the codes where the older tractors from the 70s and 80s can be repaired.

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  • [–] 2 points 4 months ago*

    Uncle had a truck, I dont remember what brand or what year. But I do remember him climbing into the engine bay and sitting on the front tire well to work on the engine, because I was on the other tire well watching him. and we both had absolutely loads of room to move around. more so me, being a kid, but he was a big man and he still could slither around everywhere in that engine bay to get at what needed got at.

    vehicles, especially trucks, used to have an insane amount of space under the hood for working on the engine.

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  • [–] 2 points 4 months ago (2 children)

    I'm getting annoyed at hearing this "they made them better in the old days" trope.

    Modern cars are pushing 200-300,000 miles of life. They don't rust like they used to, and complex, efficient engines can be diagnosed with a read from a computer screen, as can the entire car electric system. Sure, older vehicles had more room to do repairs, but they always needed repairs. Lots of rose colored glasses being worn here.

    Vehicles like giga cast Teslas are almost like hot wheels cars, one large casting of aluminum, which is often too expensive to fix so the car gets written off. Rivian and Tesla didn't give a shit about collision repair...until sales are being choked when people get insurance quotes. Tesla setup their own insurance and it's losing money. Poor design means Teslas crash more than any other brands, and get written off more than any other brand, which sets actuarial tables on fire.

    Now Rivian CEO cares because bad design is affecting sales.

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  • [–] 1 point 4 months ago

    Lots of rose colored glasses being worn here.

    I will take modern rust prevention tech every day all day. The control modules and circuit boards are a hole in repairablity, and there'll be a wall where nobody makes them anymore and the specs are not published (considered proprietary/trade secret/whatever), and that whole vehicle will just have to be scrapped. The world won't ever see the end of old body-on-frame vehicles with crate engines. Speaking for myself the "rose colored glasses" is a wish for the best of both worlds. I wouldn't doubt it's out there being done somewhere, but I'm sure it's cost prohibitive to do it, or people are doing it for themselves.

    Maybe I'm just complaining because I don't personally have the time/knowledge/workspace to do what I want in that area. C’est la vie.

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  • [–] 2 points 4 months ago (3 children)

    I used to think that until I worked on a friends 70s muscle car. The spark plugs on the drivers aide are a pain because the steering shaft runs directly down beside plug 5 and 7. But overall all the plugs and boots suck because they are tucked under the exhaust manifold.

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  • [–] 22 points 4 months ago (3 children)

    So funny story, I hit the back of my husband's Rivian on accident and we need to file a claim. I'm fucking terrified now.

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  • [–] 8 points 4 months ago (2 children)

    I mean if it's just a fender bender, who cares? Bumpers are meant to bend. Do you think it was hit hard enough to cause actual structural damage?

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