top 92 comments

sorted by: hot top controversial new old
[–] 164 points 5 months ago* (18 children)

The lower prices could be aimed at undercutting the competition.

Mobster voice: Sure would be a pity if the monetization potential of those 2 huge IPOs (3 if you count SpaceX with xAI deadweight rolled in) went boom when that's all that's holding your economy out of recession (depression depending on how they cook the books).

  • source
  • hideshow 18 child comments
  • [–] 81 points 5 months ago (17 children)

    The way SpaceX IPO got crammed into index, it’s invulnerable to anything but an immediate incarceration of everybody involved.

    Index funds will be required to buy the stocks at a listing price before market can decide how much they are worth exactly.

    Afterwards, “economy in a recession” is synonymous to “free buffet” to those at the reins.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 17 child comments
  • [–] 62 points 5 months ago (10 children)

    Yep this will be the fourth or fifth record breaking upward transfers of wealth I've lived through. I really don't want to live through another.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 10 child comments
  • [–] 18 points 5 months ago* (4 children)

    At this point many people won't. Hard to squeeze blood out of a dried, overworked, malnutritioned poisoned and diseased husk of a laid off worker.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 4 child comments
  • [–] 1 point 5 months ago (3 children)

    Can't wait until enough people are unemployed that nothing is stopping them from marching in the streets.

    Remember what happened during covid layoffs? People brought tents to the protests and camped out for months...

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 3 child comments
  • [–] 12 points 5 months ago (2 children)

    Wait, I don’t remember that happening during Covid. I remember some years before, that happened as part of the 99% anti Wall Street protests… which did nothing.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 2 child comments
  • [–] 5 points 5 months ago* (4 children)

    The 'good' news is you might not live through the next one.

    Food.

    Yeah our entire modern agricultural system is basically a process of squirting refined oil into the ground and then food comes out.

    Drive up the precursor cost?

    Well a whole bunch of that process breaks, and that's not even considering the oil burned to move things from one place to another.

    Even if you solve that problem: Climate's broke, ain't gonna fix it at this point. That'll fuck up food production massively as well.

    Population control (culling) via food prices doubling or tripling every few years, and the chaos that results from that.

    They're hoping enough of us will die before we actually try to eat them.

    I suggest making what stockpile of edible reserves you can now, keep cycling through it, eat a bit of it, replace more of it, etc.

    We got the worst el nino in recorded history, AMOC is currently giving out, as is the 'doomsday' glacier... and roughly 1/5 to 1/4 of the world's oil just stopped, it'll take years to recover from the damage thats already done.

    Everything that has happened so far will be a footnote compared to what happens next.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 4 child comments
  • [+] 4 points 5 months ago (2 children)
  • [–] 1 point 5 months ago (1 child)

    Yep, all good plans if you got any land to grow anything on.

    I'm apartment-bound, so, maybe aquaponics is in my future.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 1 child comment
  • load more comments (-1 replies)
  • load more comments (-1 replies)
  • [–] 30 points 5 months ago*

    Yeah, the whole plan is to have every US citizen's 401k's autobuy into the SpaceX IPO.

    Your retirement fund is Elon's exit liquidity.

    Its a truly fantastic fraud.

    Because... the Nasdaq... well a few weeks ago it changed its rules on the delay time between an IPO and it being part of the index, the index that everyone's 401k's buy into.

    I guess you could say its going to be 'epic' when this all blows up.

    See this is basically how the us economy works:

    Poors roll over negative equity into their next car loan.

    The ever diminishing 'middle class' basically does the same with homes, helocs, etc.

    The owners roll over debt via corporate amalgamations.

    But because the rich have a magical legal barrier of 'all the bad and dumb things i do are a legal fiction doing them, not me personally', well, the legal fiction gets what its due and/or evaporates when it can't pay what it owes... and the rich remain on top.

    Yeehaw!

  • source
  • parent
  • [–] 8 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago)

    Afterwards, “economy in a recession” is synonymous to “free buffet” to those at the reins.

    Not at all wrong, but there's only so much blood parasites can suck before the host dies (and with luck kills the parasites, and / or sends a strong signal to everybody else to get their infestations eradicated, or at the very least under control), and that host is already hurting bad.

    Perhaps I'm being optimistic, but a collapse of the likely magnitude could be that straw, or maybe it'll just be the back of US influence that breaks.

  • source
  • parent
  • [–] 2 points 5 months ago (2 children)

    I think I'm following what you're saying but I haven't read anything about this. Where can I read more?

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 2 child comments
  • [–] 46 points 5 months ago (1 child)

    It would be hilarious if Chinese companies were the ones that punctured the investment bubble around AI in America.

  • source
  • hideshow 1 child comment
  • [–] 10 points 5 months ago

    Yes, almost like that's why there's a bubble despite the obvious disparity between both states' ability to maintain an adequate infrastructure for this technology. US companies are looting with the full expectation that the cost of the economic fallout will be shifted to taxpayers. They're getting as much value out of this before China inevitably becomes dominant even in the US sphere of influence as the US simply will never be able to compete after decades of neoliberal politics and the erosion of public works.

  • source
  • parent
  • [–] 72 points 5 months ago (8 children)

    Prices are funny. My last job we were changing clients extra for doing a thing that didn’t cost us anything and was fast to do. How much we charged was completely arbitrary and depended on the partners mood. It’s all made up folks.

  • source
  • hideshow 8 child comments
  • [–] 57 points 5 months ago (6 children)

    Yeah, which is why the "if minimum wage increases, so will prices" aregument is BS. They were going to charge the highest price they thought they could either way, the difference is that they are forced to increase the amount that goes to the people they are trying to pay the least.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 6 child comments
  • [–] 7 points 5 months ago

    There is an element of minimum wage increasing, increasing prices because now there are more people that can afford to pay for things.

    But yes it isn't because costs go up, and it really only applies to things people on minimum wage can afford and it's always less than the increase in wages.

  • source
  • parent
  • [–] 1 point 5 months ago (3 children)

    It's not BS, it's just not as direct of an impact as they are implying. If payroll is 10% of their expenses (assuming EVERYONE makes minimum wage) then doubling the minimum wage will increase costs by 10%.

    Which could be (partially) absorbed from profits, could cause a 10% price hike... or a 50% price hike and fat bonuses for the executives.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 3 child comments
  • [–] 90 points 5 months ago (1 child)

    “permanently” means nothing when it comes to technology

  • source
  • hideshow 1 child comment
  • [–] 26 points 5 months ago (3 children)

    All about energy, and energy cost plays a role here, DeepSeek can go cheaper than western models...

  • source
  • hideshow 3 child comments
  • [–] 6 points 5 months ago (2 children)

    It's not the whole picture, but I think people would be interested in this :

    Renewable energy by country

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 2 child comments
  • [–] 3 points 5 months ago* (1 child)

    Should be divided by the population. Unless you are exporting electricity, your production will be based on population. China has 4.2 times the population of the US so they actually produce less renewable energy per citizen than the US.

    On that same note, Finland produces 3X the renewable energy per citizen compared with the US.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 1 child comment
  • load more comments (-1 replies)
  • [–] 62 points 5 months ago (12 children)

    “Permanently” lol it’s a subscription and the terms say they can change the price at any time. How is it legal for them to advertise with the word “permanent”?

  • source
  • hideshow 12 child comments
  • [–] 26 points 5 months ago* (5 children)

    60% of the time it works every time

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 5 child comments
  • [–] 4 points 5 months ago (4 children)

    Don’t use any of them much and from my limited experience they all seem to be pretty much the same. In fact DeepSeek probably has been a little better than ChatGPT.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 4 child comments
  • [+] -8 points 5 months ago (3 children)

    As long as you don't mind them harvesting every tiny bit of data you feed it.

    I don't like the big US players, but at least they're doing a tiny bit to keep out of your shit. Deepseek is not pretending at all. I suppose it's at least honest and the price point is REALLY tempting. Openclaw gets expensive fast with the number of tokens it consumes. I burned through $30 in two days with it using Claude Haiku/Sonnet. Plugging it into cheap LLM is a nice idea, but no thanks.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 3 child comments
  • [–] 7 points 5 months ago (1 child)

    Really depends on your point of view. Personally I see the US AI push as a maximum harvest and it is hard to see the Chinese as being worse. The US has really gone flat out destroying whatever credibility and moral authority they may have had. As I said I don’t use the technology that much and the queries are pretty innocuous, so it may be different for others.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 1 child comment
  • [–] 21 points 5 months ago (1 child)

    lol it’s a subscription

    It's actually API access price, and it's charged per input + output tokens. $0.87 per million tokens is damn cheap.

    They probably have super cheap electricity and it's possible they use cheap Chinese Ai chips for inference.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 1 child comment
  • [–] 8 points 5 months ago

    china is expanding energy tremendously to the point that the USA simply cannot compete. Even if data centers all get built tomorrow they will soon bottleneck because energy demands can’t be met in a timely manner. The median time to get a new power plant online is 5 years. Meanwhile china is investing heavily not only in expansion of their grid, but expansion into renewable energy. They’ve added 8x the power to their grid that the us did just in 2023 and if anything their pace has risen since then. Their renewable grid is 3x the size of the entire us grid

    In terms of raw performance US firms were months ahead and that gap is shrinking. Dola-seed is ranked second behind opus by us firms with a gap of under 3% in benchmark performance

    This performance gap closing and energy superiority is why ultimately DeepSeek v4 pro outperforms opus 4.6. Opus is the clear winner, but not by a very appreciable amount, and ranges from 11-26x more expensive. Chinas hardware isn’t more efficient but their energy superiority puts them way ahead; their cloudmatrix uses well over 100% more energy than nvidia g200 but their energy costs are sometimes as little as 1/8th American costs per kWh

    The race to superiority here is ultimately does America substantially update and expand their grid before Chinas domestic chip manufacturing bridges the hardware gap that has been created by things like export controls? My money is on China here; Huawei, SMIC, etc have an engineering problem that is rapidly being addressed with gigantic state sponsorship (and frankly the major bottleneck is EUV lithography, which they are actively pursuing, though this is an issue that even with tens of billions will take many years to catch up to the west). While those barriers are real the American barriers are an extremely complex regulatory system (which is ultimately why trump is being directed to gut everything in terms of environmental and worker protections), funding (the oligarchs want this but not enough to part with their money, they want us to fund it), and unlike China the US drastically changes trajectory every 4-8 years.

  • source
  • parent
  • [–] 17 points 5 months ago (2 children)

    I think it's meant to convey that it's not a temporary deal on the old price, but a permanent new price point.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 2 child comments
  • [–] 4 points 5 months ago (1 child)

    What is the effective difference? It’s not like they’re offering long term contracts.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 1 child comment
  • [–] 4 points 5 months ago

    Likely more to do with communication to customers on sale pages and such, and consequently with customer protection laws. They likely can't advertise it as a discounted price for example in the same way a seasonal sale would be signposted, I would imagine at least.

  • source
  • parent
  • [–] 16 points 5 months ago (9 children)

    Are they eating the cost? How are they able to do it while others are unable to?

  • source
  • hideshow 9 child comments
  • [–] 19 points 5 months ago (2 children)

    They invented a hybrid attention design that drastically reduces the amount of memory needed for the KV cache at inference time. Like, dividing it by 10. And memory is a large part of the cost of inference.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 2 child comments
  • [–] [S] 9 points 5 months ago

    This is a main part of the reason, yes. They actually innovated and did something that pushed the technology forward to be much more efficient, which we first saw with DeepSeek R1 for different reasons.

  • source
  • parent
  • [–] 10 points 5 months ago

    The American models are eating their cost big time, in return they get user data to train on and a massive reality distortion field that can theoretically be exploited later. It costs less for DeepSeek to eat their cost, and maybe the value of that user data is worth it now? Maybe there is some Chinese VC getting involved to try and boost DeepSeek with a little reality distortion field they can attempt to exploit later? I don't know, but all these seem plausible to me.

  • source
  • parent
  • [–] 1 point 5 months ago (4 children)

    easy: users pay the difference with their data

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 4 child comments
  • [–] 26 points 5 months ago (3 children)

    Yeah because american tech companies never spy on your or steal your data...

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 3 child comments
  • [–] 4 points 5 months ago (1 child)

    i never said that. In fact, openai gives for free 2.5 million of gpt-5.5 tokens every day if you share all your inputs for training.

    It was the answer to "why it's this cheap?" => because it's subsidized by your data

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 1 child comment
  • load more comments (-1 replies)
  • [–] 11 points 5 months ago (6 children)

    I'm unfamiliar with AI chatbots that you pay for. What is a token?

  • source
  • hideshow 6 child comments
  • [–] 20 points 5 months ago*

    A token is basically just a word. Know how your phone’s auto suggest tries to anticipate the words you want to use as you type? In this case, your phone is using an extremely small token amount (typically only the previous two or three words you have typed) to try and predict your next word, which would also be a token. Your phone only uses a few tokens at a time, because as token count rises, processing requirements also quickly balloon.

    And AI chat is basically the same concept, but with a massively inflated token limit. Instead of looking at your previous two or three words, it looks at entire conversations. And it also uses tokens to generate responses, the same way your phone is using one token at a time to predict your next word.

    So when you pay for tokens, you’re essentially paying for a word count. As you continue a conversation, the token requirement for each subsequent request will increase, because it is attempting to look at the entire context of the conversation you have had.

    Models have built-in token limits, to put a cap on how much memory is required to run the model. As conversations stretch on and you reach the model’s token limits, it will begin losing context for things that happened earlier. It will try to summarize earlier parts of the conversation to shorten them but keep relevant pieces in memory, or it will just outright drop old parts of the conversation and “forget” that context, the same way my phone has already forgotten the start of this sentence.

    It’s a little more complicated that “each word is a token”, because the chatbot will combine your prompts with its own internal systems. Especially as conversations stretch on, and it begins to summarize old parts to keep them in memory. But that’s the most straightforward way to explain it.

  • source
  • parent
  • [–] 14 points 5 months ago (3 children)

    My understanding is that tokens are basically words, and that when you ask a question it charges for all the tokens it consumes, produces, or processes. There's a lot of internal processing for each request, where the input text is summarized in different ways and combined with previous parts of the conversation, so it's not as straightforward as "word count of what you say plus what it says".

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 3 child comments
  • [–] -3 points 5 months ago (1 child)

    There’s a lot of internal processing for each request, where the input text is summarized in different ways and combined with previous parts of the conversation, so it’s not as straightforward as “word count of what you say plus what it says”.

    In other words obfuscation so they can charge whatever they want using some obscure formula that only they know.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 1 child comment
  • [–] 8 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago)

    Not really, there are ways to count tokens before running an inference. Some providers make tokenizers public, so they even work offline. APIs also usually return rolling costs per response and have budget limits - though some could have more fine-grained limits.

    Users who are surprised by the bill are usually not paying attention to each call, or using autonomous subagents, or a setup where they have little or no control to what is sent to the provider.

    So the problem isn't really the API provider, as much as it's the tooling around it, which makes it too easy to overspend.

  • source
  • parent
  • [–] 8 points 5 months ago

    Damn, fire sale already?

  • source
  • [–] 33 points 5 months ago (10 children)
  • [–] 14 points 5 months ago (9 children)

    Its safety rails are far worse than any in the West. But to your point, fuck AI.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 9 child comments
  • [–] 12 points 5 months ago (8 children)

    There are plenty of rails, they’re just different ones. Like criticizing dear leader or Tiananmen square.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 8 child comments
  • [+] -20 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago) (7 children)

    Blah blah blah blah. China bad. Invading Iran, Venezuela, supporting the genocide in Palestine is all good, getting out of the WHO, removing USAID which had let to thousand of deaths around the world, threathing Greenland and Cuba. Causing global inflation to rise due to oil cost. Tariffs . Destroyed relationships with organizations and countries that took 80 years to build.

    And that is just this year for the US.

    What catastrophic action on this scale has China in let's say the last decade?

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 7 child comments
  • [–] 18 points 5 months ago

    First of all, no one said "The US is good actually."

    Second of all, aren't you the same type of person who used to cry about USAID being a front for US imperialism? Now you want to complain that it's gone, because oh wait they were actually helping to contain infectious diseases, provide clean drinking water, and feed people in food scarce areas...

    That got shut down last year, by the way, not "just this year."

    As for catastrophic actions China has engaged in, I suppose if you ignore forced assimilations in Tibet and Urumqi, the hostile police takeover of Hong Kong, and the aggressive and environmentally destructive colonization of the South China Sea, then it would start to be somewhat difficult to come up with any examples...

  • source
  • parent
  • [–] 2 points 5 months ago (3 children)

    You claim someone is biased against China, because they said one true thing, then you bring up all kinds of unrelated things to attack another nation, which wasn't being discussed. I wonder if you might possess the bias your against, But for China and against the US? Both nations do good and bad things. If you're so angry about bias, maybe you should check your own. Or maybe bias isn't the issue, and you just support the Chinese leadership?

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 3 child comments
  • [–] -1 points 5 months ago (2 children)

    "See, China did a bad thing in 1989, while listed here are multiple worse things the US did this year alone. These are equal"

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 2 child comments
  • [–] 17 points 5 months ago (2 children)

    DeepSeek never said it was permanent in their pricing materials, the article writer did. They are just taking the current expiration date off an existing discount. It's absolutely a shot across the bow at Claude, OpenAI, et al., but the author was click-baiting, as is tradition.

  • source
  • hideshow 2 child comments
  • [–] 10 points 5 months ago (1 child)

    No?

    The deepseek-v4-pro model API pricing will be officially adjusted to 1/4 of the original price after the 75% discount promotion ends on 2026/05/31 15:59 UTC.

    https://api-docs.deepseek.com/quick_start/pricing

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 1 child comment
  • [–] 6 points 5 months ago* (6 children)

    Still gonna self host it instead (maybe)

  • source
  • hideshow 6 child comments
  • [–] 3 points 5 months ago (5 children)

    FYI the flash model is ~158 GB

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 5 child comments
  • [–] 1 point 5 months ago (3 children)

    How are they running it? Doesn't the model have to fit in (V)RAM? Does Nvidia have such huge memories in the H cards?

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 3 child comments
  • [–] 1 point 5 months ago*

    For self hosting it essentially needs to fit in VRAM + RAM but it'll take a lot of CPU for the part in RAM

    Deepseek probably uses those big fancy H cards and not one but several together to increase VRAM.

  • source
  • parent
  • load more comments
    view more: next ›